so uhm, the 3 car bombs a day that we have now are better?

 

So for almost all of those attacks, you have listed that someone or a group of people was tried and convicted for the attacks. Here is a link to the retaliation after the Kenyan and Tanzanian attacks
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Infinite_Reach

I think the difference is the Clinton administration was using more covert means of dealing with terrorist threats and not just declaring war on an entire country like the Bush administration. Which way is more effective? At least the Clinton administration didn't create 2 perfect breeding grounds for future terrorists by starting wars that really can't be won in a traditional sense.

On a technicality note, why are we still officially "at war" with Iraq? We have created a new government there, they have started to hold elections. Technically we aren't at war with the country of Iraq any longer, but with insurgents. If anything, their should have been a truce or something worked out with the new government ending the official war, and the US should be over there in just a peacekeeping role at this point. This is where I get a little fuzzy, but I think if that happened, the Bush administration would lose much of the control of the situation. Can anyone enlighten me on this?

 

Most of this was done to prevent communism after WW2.

Aren't these good things to come from our interventions? Except for maybe Iraq with three separate groups that hate each other.

You say this like black people don't exist in Europe and that EVERY German girl loves black guys. I doubt that. Second of all, this is much in the same way that a lot of Americans love Asian girls. I will admit that tha 'thugged out' Korean is probably direct influence from America, but I bet you see people here wearing European fashions. And by the way, ACL tear knees don't 'bounce', they give out and you fall down. I know. It hurts. A lot.

And Toyota now sells more cars then Ford. The market share for domestic cars is down considerably. And yet Kia/Hyundai is Korean (hmm, they kicked our but in a war), Toyota/Honda is Japanese (Hell, Im an American but Japan was so great in the war im infatuated to buy a tC)

As far as going around the world Ive had my share, England (London X2, Bath), France (Paris), Greece(Athens, Islands), Turkey (Istanbul, not Constantinople), Isreal (Tel-Aviv, Yhafa, Jerusulam), Canada(Oshwa), Mexico(Was little don't remember).
I saw a McD's just about everywhere. And We haven't beaten any of them in a war.


In America? or do you mean the bombs in Iraq? Or do you mean in Isreal, because none of those is really killing Americans.

Ah! I forgot about that! Good call. In all honesty I have nothing to say, except that diplomatic solutions obviosly didn't stop the terrorism. Not that what we are doing now helps at all either. Although I can be ruthless when it comes to religous terrorism so im not a diplomatic person. Nothing really helps, the way I see it...if we do it diplomatic they have time to hatch a large scale plot that kills thousands OR we are always going after terrorism and thousands die in the time it takes the terrorists to hatch a large scale plot.


I don't know why we are still 'at war' and I can't enlighten you.

 

You mean besides the Men and Women in the armed services over there right?

Why is Clinton always brought into the argument when people talk about the shoddy job Bush is doing? What does an unfaithfull husband with a slick tounge have to do with what this current goose-stepping president is doing to the United States?

Do we really think that this war is going end terrorism? Sure, it's nearly impossible for them to plan and carry out an attack of 911's magnitude at the moment, but what happens when we leave? And we have to eventually leave. Our millitary can't stay over there forever because we don't have the resources to do it.

All I'm saying, it's time for a change of direction and a new strategy (well actually having a strategy would be a good idea at this point).

 

Clinton is brought into it because he was the president immediatly before Bush. Its not like his presidancy didn't effect the beginning of Bush's term. I highly doubt that terrorism happens only on select presidents. Im willing to bet terrorism started before Bush and Clinton, like way back when during the Crusades.

 

This whole "Israel vs. The Rest of the Middle East" thing is really quite silly.

On one side, you have Israel - a country which is civilized, is committed to democracy, the rights of women, fair and just treatment of its people, etc. Are they funded by us? Yes. SHOULD they be funded by us? Probably.

On the other side, you have - well, the rest of the islamic states. States where women have few (if any) rights. Fathers routinely kill daughters just for the SUSPICION of premarital sex. Petty crimes are punished by public caning, stoning or amputation. Denouncing Islam (by, say, being a christian) is punishable by death.

Should we be funding THESE countries? Probably not. But we do, because they have something we need.

When viewing Zionism versus Islamic law, think about what each society has done for humanity. The israelis are deeply spiritual, but do anything they can to further humanity. A lot of medical and technological advances come from Israel. For instance, they are pioneers in Biotechnology and did a lot of early work in non-invasive surgical procedures. On the technology front, Intel's entire Core architecture was designed in israel.

What has the islamic society given humanity besides fuel for our SUV's?

Unfortuantely, I *am* racist to an extent, and I am not afraid to admit it. When I hear about islamic countries, even ones we consider allies, I hear about how women have to completely cover up, men can have a multitude of wives (ok, maybe thats not such a BAD idea!), and people are regularly having their hands lopped off from stealing a piece of fruit, I get ill. The people live in poverty while the oil big-wig's build their lavish palaces and live the good life.

The normal citizens of these countries can't do much in that environment except be poor, miserable wretches. It's those poor, miserable wretches who will do anything for some money to provide their families - unfortunately, that "anything" also includes strapping a bunch of explosives to your person and waltzing onto a loaded israeli bus. Or several of our planes.

If you want to fault Israel for anything, fault them for not finishing the job under "UN Pressure", since in the end, the United Nations will do nothing to solve the problem. You cannot change the situation in the middle east, because the world of islam - at its very core - is completely dysfunctional.

It's a shame, really. Even the prophet muhammed himself wouldn't be able to explain what the hell has been going on for the past 1,000 years.

 

It seems most of the time it is someone who voted for Bush that falls on the "Blame Cinton" partyline. I know this isn't always true, but I think it is a way for some people to relieve their own guilt once they realized they voted in the wrong guy. LOL

I wouldn't be so quick to say it is nearly impossible to carry out an attack of 9/11 magnitude. If they plot to blow airliners out of the sky that was disrupted last week had to come to fruition, the cost in life lost could have come close to 9/11. My understanding is they were planning on blowing up 10 or so airliners, figure 250+ people on each, and you are right up around 9/11 numbers. Monetary loss wouldn't come close to 9/11, but psychologically it would have been just as big. Especially if it had been timed right.

It is really impossible to say whether the war on terrorism is preventing anything or not. There is no way to prove that after 9/11 Al Qaeda could have carried out anything even close in scope. It could have easily been a one shot deal and then hope to bluff from then on. Or we could be truly disruptive to all their planning so the best they can muster is some suicide bombers in the middle east. I would love to think we are keeping them on their toes and slowly whittling their resources away, but I think these wars we have started are only increasing the animosity towards the US.

Actually, Nobody had a problem when we went into Afghanistan. We had the support of pretty much everyone except the Taliban. The mistake was Iraq. Nothing anyone can ever say will truly justify that decision. The timing was horrendous. We went from being the leader of the world with the power to guide policies that would eliminate all safe harbors for terrorists, to being scorned by almost everyone, even many of our allies. I just hope someone can take over in a few years and get us heading back in the right direction.

 

With politics being as corrupt as it is on either side, Don't count on it

 

True, but when someone criticizes a Bush decision, Why is Clinton brought into the argument? for instance, the whole reason Clinton was brought into this thread was because you offered it out there as if what Bush is doing now is better, because Clinton lied about having sex with an intern. It makes no logical sense. Bush is making bad decisions based off horribly bad advice, an agenda to fatten his supporters pocket books, and some questionable intellegence (both in the spy sense and IQ sense). Clinton lying under oath has nothing to do with what's going on now.

The wholsale cutting of the military budget by Clinton....now, bring that up, and you have something that leads into what's going on today. Our intellegence sources were horribly underfunded, however, there is no conclusive evidence that more money would have seen what did happen before it happened. That's an argument that has some merit. However, lying about doing the dirty is a complete non-sequitor. But yet, this is what's brought up when someone critisizes the current policy which is headed towards a semi-**** state.

 

You really have no grasp on what Islam is all about.

The Quran is progressive because at a time in which females were devalued, it explicitly insists on equality between the sexes. In Chapter 3, it states that whoever does good deeds, male or female, whoever believes, male or female, etc. will be favored in the eyes of god.

It alo gives women the right of inheritance, which was historically forbidden, and which women in Western societies did not attain until the late 19th century.

The supposedly anti-feminist Islamic practices, such as hijab (meaning both the headscarf worn and the institution of separating the sexes) was introduced as a protection to women and not out of hatred toward them.

What is unique about the scriptures is the absolute moral equality of men and women. Compare that to the teachings in the bible, then get back to me.

To the Western eye, the traditions and customs of Islam may appear barbaric, but just as there are Christian Fundamentalist who distort and misuse the bible to fit their personal agenda, so does religious perversion exist in every belief system.

Now I am not claiming to have a full grasp on Islam (or any religion for that matter), but we can generalize about different beliefs and still be no closer to the truth. Christianity speaks of killing those who commit apostasy, but does that mean any christian who decides not to believe anymore is going to be put to death? Certainly not.

 

Quran quotes:

“The first thing created by God was the Intellect.”
“The most excellent Jihad is that for the conquest of self.”
“The ink of the scholar is more holy than the blood of the martyr.”
“One learned man is harder on the devil than a thousand ignorant worshippers.”
“Reflect upon God’s creation but not upon His nature or else you will perish.”
“Riches are not from an abundance of worldly goods, but from a contented mind.”
“He who wishes to enter Paradise at the best door must please his mother and father.”
“No man is a true believer unless he desires for his brother that which he desires for himself.”
“When the bier of anyone passes by you, whether Jew, Christian, or Muslim, rise to your feet.”
“The thing which is lawful, but disliked by God, is divorce.”
“Heaven lies at the feet of mothers.”
“Women are the twin-halves of men.”
“Actions will be judged according to intentions.”
“That which is lawful is clear, and that which is unlawful likewise,
but there are certain doubtful things between the two from which it is well to abstain.”
“The proof of a Muslim’s sincerity is that he pays no attention to that which is not his business.”
“That person is nearest to God, who pardons . . . him who would have injured him.”
“Yield obedience to my successor, although he may be an Abyssinian slave.”
“Assist any person oppressed, whether Muslim or non-Muslim.”
“The creation is like God’s family . . . the most beloved unto God
is the person who does good to God’s family.”
“Modesty and chastity are parts of the Faith.”

 

I'm an agnostic, so you're very right when you say I don't have a good grasp of Islam or the Quran. With regards to women - ask women living in a fundamental islamic state and ask what THEY think about that line Finding favor in the eyes of god rarely translates to finding favor in the eyes of MAN.

But like I said before - fathers will kill their daughters if they feel they have had premarital sex. They will stone a woman in public for fornication. Husbands don't have to care because they can take on as many wives as they can handle. Yeah. That's some equality right there, let me tell ya!

As for Christianity, you're also absolutely right - in the past there was plenty of barbarism to go around trying to convert people.

Personally I remain agnostic for good reason - I don't feel that any of the interpretive writings for ANY deity holds much weight. While I do believe there's some form of intelligence that's higher than our own, I don't believe said deity is going to banish me to hell for rubbing one out, nor is he going to make me pay with a hand and/or foot if I steal something.

My personal Deity is a lot more like Hugh Beaumont

Being agnostic allows me to take religion out of the equation and look at society for their accomplishments, not for their religious beliefs.

 

That sums up my personal feelings as well.

Although I am more into Jeffrey Beaumont (David Lynch fans might get that one)myself.

The past few years I have made many new friends from the Middle East, and have learned quite a lot from them regarding Islam.

You will hear many Americans (especially christian men) complaining about the treatment of women, but four out of every five Western converts to Islam are women. Seperating the religion from the cultural norms is essential to understanding.

Women may not be equal in the manner defined by Western feminists, but their core differences from men are acknowledged, and they have rights of their own that do not apply to men

 

As for your quotes - they're all terrific, but like all other religions, people have subverted the quran over time to make it something that it is not. Most recently, they're using it as a tool to get poor people to become bombs.

When you look at the IDEALS of religion, they usually all mean well for its followers. But when you TWIST those ideals into a tool to do harm to others, that's just plain evil. I don't care if it's christian, bhuddist, islamic or whatever.

We're all human beings. We all want to be happy, be good parents and watch our kids grow. That will NEVER happen in the middle east while there are people there who are evil enough to subvert Islam so it becomes a weapon.

When there's tension in the middle east, the princes and kings of these islamic regions all get significantly richer. They have a vested interest in keeping unrest in that region. The higher they keep oil prices, the richer they get.

 

I haven't read every post in this thread, but I have read the last 4 or 5. There will always be people who are mistaught, misguided, or just plain nuts when it comes to any religious faith. I don't believe that Islam and what it teaches is the problem. I think the problem comes from those who twist what it teaches. The same exact thing happens in every religion. I am a Christian. It makes me sick to my stomach when I think of the attrocities that have been committed over the years "in the name of Christianity". I can promise you that if you read the Bible, those horrible things where not what Jesus taught. We need to stop pointing fingers and stereotyping by religion.

 

I am in total agreement.

But by the US continually support Israel, we have become a large part of the reason why militant Islam is on the rise. Israel is the reason the Muslim religion is on the rise.

 

Whoa now! I never said what bush is doing is better, I pointed out the difference. I don't know about you, but when the head of the most powerful nation on this planet voted by its citzens lies under oath to said citzens I take that pretty seriously. I think the law agrees, whats the sentance for purgery? And what did Clinton serve?

Obviously the amount of life's loss is severly different, I don't support or really like either Clinton or Bush.


As to the other issue, I agree. Islam and its supporters aren't the problem. Its the fundamentalists that use Islam to serve their own wants that are bad.

 

Well, MY point is that we're all human beings. I may not like my neighbors, but I'm not going to wage war with them. I may not like what someone says, but i'll defend their right to say it.... There is simply nothing significant enough to make me want to give my life up for some religious ideal. I plan on watching my kids grow up to become LOGICAL, RATIONAL citizens who will someday have their own logical and rational families while I grow very old and grey. And yes, I fully intend on becoming a senior citizen, the alternative being what it is

There's actually a really good song about the kind of behavior going on in the middle east. "Right in Two" on the latest Tool CD, 10,000 days. Key lyrics:

Angels on the sideline,
Baffled and confused.

Father blessed them all with reason,
And this is what they choose.

Monkey, killing monkey, killing monkey,
Over pieces of the ground.

 

Is this the start of something we can all agree on?

I unfortunately do not know much about Islam. I have heard from many sources that it is supposed to be a religion of peace, but like anything, it only takes a handful of whacko's to tarnish the name. And to be fair, while we as Americans may think some aspects of Islamic life is unacceptable, they are thinking the same thing about many aspects of our lifestyles.

I was always partial to Frank Booth myself. Great reference by the way ;)

 

"Suave! Goddamn youre one suave fu**er!

Wait, agreement.....say it aint so!