Well, logic is obvoulsy part of the equation in your mind and life.

But just because you, and to really stretch things, lets say this country becomes 90% logical ( ), and they want peace and logic for our children. But illogical people will continue to attack this country and its people because of no other reasn than our support of Israel.

That is what I was trying to say, or get across with my initial post. By not looking into the possible ramifications of our decisions, decisions made mainly for profit, we will continue to come under attack.

 

While quite utopian, I feel John Lennon said it better for me:

"Imagine no religion…."

 

If he lied about selling arms to Iran, I'd agree with you. However, what a man, a woman, another woman, and sometimes a good natured midget do in their own bedrooms, is no business of anyone's. Clinton never should have even been put in the position to lie under oath, that was the scandalous part, not the lying....at least in my opinion.

In short, it would appear that we've had some pretty crappy "leaders" in recent history. We need a JFK in the worst way, but I'm afraid our politcal machine we have now completely prevents it. I.O.W, Anyone who is actually qualified would be too turned off by the system.

Anyway, back to our regularly scheduled program, Cane vs. Abel part IVIVIIIIVVXXXIIIMMXXII

 

I tried to make this point at a party with a group of my friends. By the end of it, I had one friend just short of wanting to come to blows because of my opinion. This was a few years ago, when the bigger issue was actually Israel / Palestine, and not Israel / Lebanon. I put forth the point of view that suggested we should think about what the Palestinians are going through. Limited access to resources, education, etc. Israel security forces beating down doors and rounding up palestinian people on suspicion, and after thinking about that, wonder if they don't have a legitimate reason to be upset and riotous. The conversation quickly devolved into him telling me how we "need" Israel, they are our best ally in the world, etc. I ask what we get out of our relationship other then a bullseye on our back and the angst of the entire middle east directed at us. I didn't talk to him for about 3 weeks after that. And was accused of being a ****.. sigh.

Anyway, my experience is this is a difficult conversation to hold with most people. Go back to the first reply to this thread if you don't understand what I mean. Nobody wants to really ask the hard questions (funny, I think that was the point of posting the videos initially) and ask "Why does the Islamic world want to attack us?" "What is provoking this aggression?" Unfortunately the answer ALWAYS lies with Israel. I can't really give a good course of action for the US. At this point, pulling support for Israel is too late to do any good, and being that they have nukes and the US is about the only thing stopping them from using them, we need to maintain some presence in their politics.

What needs to happen is someone needs to find a way to get all sides to the table. Israel needs to make some concessions to Palestine, give them some land and then they need to get the hell out of the area. And building a wall around the Palestinians blocking them from all essential services is not going to cut it. Next Israel needs to explain how they have arrested and detained hundreds or thousands of people, women included, with no charges being brought to light. That is after all why Hamas, and later Hezbollah originally abducted some Israeli soldiers a month ago sparking this latest round of bloodshed. Finally the rest of the middle eastern countries need to be made to understand that Israel has a right to exist and everyone is just going to have to get along. Unfortunately smarter people then me have deduced the same thing, and haven't been able to figure a way to get all sides to agree on that count. I wish it would all work out, but as I have been told.. you can wish in one hand and sh#t in the other and see which fills up first. ;)

 

X2

[quote="Generik 420"]
I tried to make this point at a party with a group of my friends. By the end of it, I had one friend just short of wanting to come to blows because of my opinion. This was a few years ago, when the bigger issue was actually Israel / Palestine, and not Israel / Lebanon. I put forth the point of view that suggested we should think about what the Palestinians are going through. Limited access to resources, education, etc. Israel security forces beating down doors and rounding up palestinian people on suspicion, and after thinking about that, wonder if they don't have a legitimate reason to be upset and riotous. The conversation quickly devolved into him telling me how we "need" Israel, they are our best ally in the world, etc. I ask what we get out of our relationship other then a bullseye on our back and the angst of the entire middle east directed at us. I didn't talk to him for about 3 weeks after that. And was accused of being a ****.. sigh. [ /quote]

I don't like people that can't tolerate others opinions...

[quote="Generik 420"]
Israel needs to make some concessions to Palestine, give them some land and then they need to get the hell out of the area. [ /quote]

This is logical and would have probably happened by now IF, we werent talking about the 'holy' land.

 

This is the saddest part. If we cannot discuss different opinions and perspectives without turning to violence, we are the same as the extremists. How will we ever see the other side? Until we (talking collectively here, as a nation hopefully….someday) can look at both sides, we are steps away from becoming terrorists ourselves.

Sigh…always with the race card. See the first response to my initial post for yet another example. By coping out of a discussion with a knee-jerk reaction such as the example you just made, it shows one cannot debate intelligently. Hopefully things cooled down between the two of you after some time away.

Oops….should have read all the way through your post before replying.
You said the million dollar phrase…Nobody wants to really ask the hard questions. Until we (collectively again) can come to grips with what questions NEED to be answered, we will continue to be manipulated by the powers that be.


I still here conflicting reports of exactly where the Israeli soldiers were captured, Lebanon or Israel.
But yes, communication is essential to keeping this world in one piece. The land of the Mid-East is being poisoned with depleted uranium, with a half life of a half million years (or more….that number is a guess) that WILL have effects on future generations born of that land. Some may say, "Who cares, I will never go there.". But these people or, more accurately, that mentality, must be overcome for this Earth to have the ability to support human life.
Alas, the big question is how.
Maybe by discussions like this, the people (the TRUE rulers of this land, although they have forgotten it) will force their governments to use some diplomacy before jumping into death as the answer. That will take will, determination and intelligence

 

So, here's an idea. And maybe I'm just totally off my rocker, but it wouldn't be the first time. Also, it is based on the assumption that Jews and Muslims simply cannot live with each other that close to the holy land. Ok, are you ready for this, it's a big one:

Why don't we just let it all hang out. Let Israel go on a rampage against the entire area, sit back, and just let the chips fall where they may. Let there be a clear cut winner, whoever it is. I honestly think this is the only way that there will ever be peace in the middle east.

Like I said, may be I'm just off my rocker here, but negotiations will never work. Just let one take over the other and get on out of the region.

 

How many of those countries were hostile towards America? I've been to Greece(Crete)/non hostile but great vacation spot, Korea(DMZ, Yongsan year long tour), Iraq x2(Tal Afar, Samarra, Tikrit), Kuwait x2(can't remember the name of the city but it's only about 30-40 minutes from Kuwait City), Germany(Reihnmind-spell?), and Mexico(Nongalez) doesn't really count but I've been there too. I've been all over the world and I see the same stuff everywhere I go. It's never changed whether they're our allies or we "made" them our allies.

But all of these things are just our opinions and no one really knows the truth except for Condalezza probably! JK

 

I got this joke this morning...I think it sums up this all nicely.


-note Wailing Wall = Western Wall = The Last Wall from the Old Temple
"
In Jerusalem, a female CNN journalist heard about a very old Jewish man who

>had been going to the Wailing Wall to pray, twice a day, everyday, for a

>long, long time, so she went to check it out.

>She went to the Wailing Wall and there he was. She watched him pray, and

>after about 45 minutes when he turned to leave, she approached him for an

>interview.

>"I'm Rebecca Smith from CNN. Sir, how long have you been coming to the wall

>and praying?"

>"For about 60 years."

>"60 years! That's amazing! What do you pray for?"

>"I pray for peace between the Christians, Jews and the Muslims. I pray for

>all the hatred to stop and I pray for all our children to grow up in safety

>and friendship."

>"How do you feel after doing this for 60 years?"

>"Like I'm talking to a f*?+&*#' wall."
"

 

LOL, that makes TOOOO much sence!!!

 

There is a certain song by the band SOD that seems appropriate here.. called "F*ck The Middle East" Written quite some time ago but seems so relevant today. Anyway...

To put it bluntly.. you're off your rocker I understand the sentiment, but there is one glaring flaw in that idea. The US has supplied BILLIONS of dollars worth or military hardware and support. Isreal has nuclear capability and if things did excalate to full blown war between the middle east and Israel, nukes would be involved. The problem is, at that point Israel wins by contrition, but leaves the middle east a radioactive wasteland with who knows what future ramifications. Parts of Europe would surely be affected, southern Russia, Africa, oh and have you seen how big some dust storms in that general region can get?

So it may not be an end of mankind exactly, but we are talking global repercussions from letting that part of the world just "go at it". And in the end, the entire region is a contaminated area and the oil that the world wants is a lot harder to get, and MUCH more expensive then we can even imagine now. Really there is nothing good that can come of it.

On top of that, what is left of the Islamic extremists will be licking their wounds and realizing that they got beaten by Israel, which had the dominant power in the region because of years of US support. So the bulls eye is still on our back, and at that point, there will be no room for diplomacy with them.

I really think we will see a revolutionization of our political process in the US. Information travel so fast today that the government can no longer supress what they don't want us to find out. More people are turning to the internet for news, and thus more people are slowly becoming more informed to different points of view. Look at the last election.. Bloggers were the biggest storyline. Give it some more time and it will become impossible for our elected officials to completely ignore their consituents like they seem to do presently. This isn't going to be overnight, but I think by the time my 2 year old son is voting age, things are going to be much different then they were 2 years ago. And at that point, we might start to see this country start to operate more like a democracy.

 

You really should read the Wiki page on Israel. They are not the people that you think that they are. In particular, focus on this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War After all, it was Israel who invaded Lebanon recently. Were they provoked? Yes. Was there justification for the damage and loss of life that has occurred?

As far as Islam is concerned, I have read both the Bible and the Quran. I am not a Muslim, but I feel that modern-day Islam is very close to ancient Christianity.........like Old Testament times, where God was a force to be feared, people were punished for wickedness, good, virtuous people blossomed, etc. Christianity was much stronger then. Islam is like that NOW, hence their fervor.

The United States has, in this conflict, truly shown what little political power it has within the region. While the US officially stated that it would not call for a cease fire until a long-lasting peace would be a result, it is all but certain to have urged Israel to strongly pursue all military actions available. After all, when it comes to "terrorists," we can't show civility, right?

The United States has been slipping down a slope for years, all in the name of stopping terrorists. Our elected officials use this excuse to push through almost everything that fits their agenda. For example:

STRONGER DRM ON CDS PROPOSED BY CONGRESS Terrorists could be sapping the US economy by creating massive amounts of DRM-free content and distributing it worldwide.

I could go on, but I will end with this. The terrorists are winning the battle in the United States, and they will continue to win as long as we sacrifice our own values, ideals, and morals to combat an enemy that cannot EVER be defeated. After all, this is the War On Terror, right?

 

From Wiki "When Egypt sent UN officials away from the Egyptian-Israeli border and increased its military activity near the border, and blocked access of the Strait of Tiran to Israeli ships, Israel launched a pre-emptive attack on Egypt's airforce fearing an imminent attack by Egypt."

Oh no! They are so terrible they protected themselves!!!! OMG OMG HOW BAD ARE THEY!!!

The Six-Days war was right after Isreal became a country and the middle east said they would never accept them as a country and vowed to wipe them off the face of the earth. Do you really think that Egypt was going to send a welcome cake?
I agree that we should not get rid of our freedom for the pursuit of terrorism, its those freedoms that we should hold dear. Its those freedoms they deny to others.

 

TERRORISM: Sounds like Israel was using force to coerce Egypt not to attack it. Agreed?

I see that your idea of diplomacy is markedly similar to our current administration's- attack your enemies before they can attack you, is that right? The best defense is a good offense?

Explain to me how you protect your people by starting a war.

 

Country A is going to attack country B. Country A attacks B before Country A can move into country B. The fighting is now in Country A's territory, not Country B. Country B effectively saved its CIVILLIANS by attacking Country A.

And that definition of Terrorism is by far the vaguest thing ever, if you actually take that seriously our Police Dept is terrorist because they threaten to use force if you do something bad because politically they need to protect other citzens.

 

Violence is the last resort of the incompetent.

 

Some may argue that 'Might makes right'.. but I think we can all see how that is working out in the world in general.

 

Maicca,
Im not going to even answer you untill you type in a normal font. If you cant discuss as two sides equal and of their own opinion you are no better then an extremist.


Generik, Yeah I agree...Might makes might...and thats about it. If 'Might makes Right' then the ****'s were right. I tend to differ.

 

In other news, it looks like the cease fire is holding between Isreal and Lebanon....Who wants to take bets on when the next attack on Isreal will be? I say two weeks max.

 

For the record, Clinton was a much worse president than Bush. Clinton has a long list of military blunders starting with Kosovo and continuing on with Somalia. Come to think of it, Clinton never did anything good.