Hey, I don't mean to say -no opposing discussion at all-. I'll semi-retract this feeler:


Indeed, if we ask that way and -especially- in this thread, you religious peeps are very welcome by Thread Starter (nanobrain reid) to contest the opinions.

After all, I have no agenda to protect, no belief system to enshrine. And I do have desire to retort back on some of your points of questioning. I'll do that later, inside of a day or less.

There will be no reason to lock this thread if I may, please, semi-conduct it along. We're not here to destroy one another.

Bottom line is open eyes and tolerance at the same time. Wm Penn would agree, yes?

cheer,
nanonano

 

To what someone said about if there was no god you could do this or you could do that...what ever happened to just being a good person?

I dont need a bible to tell me how to behave around other people and whats right and wrong, not saying all religious people do of course lol

I am not religious at all, I dont believe in god I dont believe Jesus ever existed or rather happened the way it is all written....

What is odd to me is of all the people I know or have known that were "bad people" ..jerks...mean people ..rude....they are 99% of the time "religious" christians

My take on it is religion restricts people so much that they become cynical because of it, and that is what gives it a bad name (possibility?)

And odd enough yet is I know quite a few people who are pagan, wiccan and stuff like that...every single one of them is just plain and simple good people. Helpful, non threatening good honest people.

Also - this is only from what I see, others may find different things. And I will be open minded to the next person I meet and give them the benefit of the doubt, I just try and respect everyone I meet no matter who they are.

manners, respect, trust <-- not religion, just common sense

There is one book of the bible though that I think is very interesting and fun to read, to leave off on a different note. Proverbs!! very interesting sayings which I like.

 

mmmmm oatmeal uber yummy

 

you unwittingly answered why man had to create religion. it was for the selfish egocentric people like you who, if not for the external controls on your behavior provided by the religious doctrine that results in your burning somewhere forever if you don't at least try to consider the rest of us, you apparently would seek to indulge yourself without regard for other the people here sharing the space with you.

me, i choose to do right because that is what is right. i am acutely aware that what i do affects not only others but the whole scheme of things. i don't need a fairy tale to scare me into doing what is just or to reassure me that i am doing right.

btw, what do you get when you cross a dyslexic with an insomniac who is agnostic? someone who stays up all night wondering if there is a dog.

 

why do we need god to to tell us what is right and what is wrong? Can't we make the decision on our own?

 

Surf - This is why threads like this don't work.... and I ask you to be fair.... In no way am I what you quote, and I resent the statement that you would call me a "Selfish Ego-Centric" individual... it's for the sake of the discussion that those references to behaviour were made....

But.....

WHY be good????

I understand the ability of individuals to be sociologically acceptable as "Good", outside of religion, but outside of eternal consequence, WHAT really is the motivation for good, if their is nothing outside of your existence... it doesn't make rational sense for an individual, who only has, say, 80 years of existence, to dedicate that existance to the sake of those who exist after them, or even for the sake of those around them...

What SCHEME of things?

I don't see a scheme of things outside of "A God" or "A Afterlife"... That is the dillemma...

Why believe in "Right" and "Wrong", for if we only live and die....

Then the only consequences of bad behavoir is a temporal "Inconvienience" of sorts, to anyone we offend or hurt... What motivation, other than "For the Good of others around us" do we then have? and what ever has been shown that men, when given the chance to act for the good of others, over their own good, have chosen the first.

History has consistently shown us otherwise EVEN WITHIN RELIGION (which I will easily and honestly admit) (Many of the world's atrocities were done under the guise of "Religion" itself....)

I also don't need " A Fairy Tale" to compel me to behave in a certain way....

I behave in a certain way because I believe life has an intrisic value, due to it's loving creation, and that all individuals deserve the best that I can give them.... what value does life have if it is solely temporal? It would then be no more valuable then that of the animals around us... outside of the relationships we form with each other... and in that note, why do the relationships we share have more value than the relationships of those in the animal world?

Aside from the philosophical arguements, there is also the nature of the world around us that by far, is a witness to some form of intelligent design.... whatever you chose to believe...

The insane faith it takes to believe in time and chance to eventually result in the absolute intricacies of the world's (and the Universe's) design around us is at least the equivilent of the faith neccesary for me to believe in an intelligent "God".

For, if you solely do the math, the chances of a random design resulting in where we are today, is taking Billions upon Billions of Billion to one chances of all the "correct conditions" in which the each of the steps of development of intelligent life were to form unquided.... Not saying that it is not possible, but given the odds, can we not say the "the concept of God" can share at least somewhat of the same possibility statistically?

The Belief of No God, and thus random development of life must have faith as well.... because it has never been scientifically observed completely, so you must have faith that whatever is scientifically observed today, was in some way, consistent over all the undocumented history before... which you cannot yet fully explain scientifically...

Is not Atheism a belief system and in that regard, a religion as well? , and is not the original point of this thread to not inshrine it amoungst those who hold the worldview of atheism? Atheism is by far not the lack of religion, or religious thought, but the idea of religious thought outside of a specific deity...

 

I must post a disclaimer that my thoughts are by far not an attempt to "Convert" or "Enshrine" my belief, but to compare it thoughtfully and philosophically to other religious ideas and develop my own thoughts in regards to the perspectives other individuals have that are exclusive to what I chose to believe...

I greatly detest the idea that true faith in "Christianity" is inherantly destructive....

Even if it were to be a complete farce and fairy tale, the worst that true Christianity could do is delude someone into a wonderful lifestyle of hope and a positive perspective.... and thus ending at their death... I see no real danger...

It is true that many atrocities were done under the guise of a belief in a diety? YES, but it is also true that many atrocities were done under the guise of ridding the world of a theistic belief as well... thus the condition of man...

True Christianity, and true Christian Apologetics do not consist of a legalistic perspective of indocrination and unconditional and absolute obedience... if that is your perspective, you've been sold a bill of goods that does not represent the teachings of Christ, which true Christianity would attest to believe...

That is why I don't believe that these forums are the best place to discuss true apologetics of Christian thought, while compared to other worldviews, as both perspectives take an insane amount of research and understanding to fully comprehend.... And many don't have the education, or the ability to fully invest the time and patience into discovering the intricacies of other "Faiths"...

I, in turn, am excited to see SciFly's response... as I'm enamored by the atheistic worldview... and the brillance of some of it's greatest thinkers... which I greatly respect....

 

OK, great world thinker (nanonano) is back for a bit. First He picks his nose and considers WeDriveScions original question:
See, now there is no personal attack in his question. I don't feel like a biter, myself, either.

if there is no God and no afterlife.... why is there morality and law?
In a society of creatures capable of free will actions there must be some rules for preservation of social order. Really, nothing is "immoral" if it does not harm the group or trespass on rights of individuals pursuing their own personal happiness. Morality is not law. Law does not create morality. Only empathy can really keep moral behavior in check, in absence of applicable laws. Religious laws are a sort of crutch or adjuct especially useful in checking unempathetic individuals bent on grabbing up what they can from others.

If we all had regard for the Golden Rule then there would be no need for laws. We would rule ourselvs and our worldy kingdoms with creative industry, in fine harmony. This will never happen, though, because most individuals lack sufficient empathy.

Empathy is, I think, an inherent trait; an ability to put oneself into his opponent's shoes for a think and ponder: what is he about and why is he this way. Empathy tends to keep us from power-playing with too raw a vigor, say, when debating philosophical opponents. The empathetic person feels the pain he causes others, as keenly as if he was injured himself. This makes an avoidance reflex inevitable.

nanonano nothing is complicated

 

nothing is complicated.

no, it is not.

I dropped out of high school. I've never studied philosophy nor religions nor much of anything in this line.

it's all just common sense, isn't it?

if a reader has an input and feels shy or unsure, why! don't worry. No one gets bit here or I go out for his defense if he does get nipped.

it's that simple

 

I understand that perspective.... but cannot understand the idealizing of Empathy, over a trait such as Persecution... outside of accepting that there is a "Code of ethics" outside of ourselfs, which Right and Wrong are based, and therefore empathy, which encourages "Right" behavior is respected....

What motivates "Empathy" outside of the temporal satisfaction of doing something for someone else.... but, in that regard, what value is there for doing something for someone else other than the temporal satisfaction of doing something good for another, but in that regard, why do we value doing something good for another, unless it is "Right" which gets us back to where "Right" comes from?.....

I have a hard time understanding why "Humanity" is valued, within the perspective of Atheism... Value for the merit of Value is a circular arguement... What value does humanity have over anything else physical, if that is all we are... a physical manifestation of atoms capable of exercising free will? Please elaborate....

 

Sir Martin Rees, a professor of astronomy at Cambridge has written a book which pretty much convinced me of this. As you say, too many things happened "just right" from the instant of the big bang to today for it to be random chance. From the force of gravity, to the temperature of the universe, if any number of things were infinitesimally different from the way they were now than we don't exist.

I just think you should do the right thing because it is the right thing, not because god or someone else says so.

wishful thinking I know....

 

i wasn't calling you anything. i'm sorry if you read it that way. it's just that your post reflected that you apparently needed a "god" so you'd be good or you'd wreak havoc on the rest of us. i also never suggested that your being was delineated by the brief turns of the sun you espoused (80 years or so).

let me put it this way, christ wasn't the only one who "got it". imo, you cannot "worship" the folk who figured out what the heck is going on without realizing it is also you.

i don't fault you for saying you need something outside of you to be true. i don't. i know your heart is good. nuff said.

the truth is the truth, the same thing believed is a lie.

the truth is what's so, not so obviously it's also so what.

in reading your posts, i truly believe that you are looking for the truth. hear me, it isn't outside of you. you are preaching to the choir. get it?

 

Gee, I think the questions you put to me are getting too elaborate... I prefer to keep it simple.

-What "value" does humanity have? I suppose, only to itself is it "valuable". In essence, we value our individual lives and the lives of those others we feel akin to. And this stems from the instinct to survive.

And the instinct to survive is blueprinted into our cellular structures (sort of)... I guess from the basest single celled organisms on up the chain: these all "want" to live. But why do living things 'want' to live? I suppose it's not a 'want' so much as an inherent 'need'. Only mankind can pose such silly questions to obvious cause/effects.

We think and worry too much. We, so self-important; not nearly so free-will as we might think, if realizing that we're no more celestial than bison or viral particles.

 

Ravi Zacharias has to be one of the most intellectually advanced men on this planet at this time. With education covering quantum physics to almost every philosophy known to man....yet Christ is perfect in his teachings and Ravi travels the world discussing this fact with every institution that wishes to challenge his position..Quackery appears to be what happens to the "brains" of those that try to debunk his facts.

How does Christ compare with the many other deities of the world? Ravi Zacharias begins analyzing that question with scientists and university students. Um, his language is very advanced....some words you may not know the meanings...

Can't be challenged!

Part 1 - hit real player and listen.
http://www.rzim.org/radio/archives.p...=detail&id=408

Part 2
http://www.rzim.org/radio/archives.p...=detail&id=409

Part 3
http://www.rzim.org/radio/archives.p...=detail&id=410

Part 4
http://www.rzim.org/radio/archives.p...=detail&id=411

 

Making Money now.... I'll listen to these soon...

I like this guy already....

Golly ScionDad, you rock with Turbo'd tC and study great theologians... consider adoption?

Kidding, of course.... but props to you none-the-less...

 

He will simply blow your mind. He covers many topics. The 4 above are one of the best topics I ever heard. Brilliant man...simple brilliant.

http://www.rzim.org/radio/archives.php?p=JT&o=0&i=10

 

One of the funniest ones is when he went to University of Florida. He took them apart piece by piece with facts. One of their great professors tried, but he failed to understand before hand.... Ravi understood as much if not more than he did.

 

If you’ve ever wondered about topics ranging from the so-called “contradictions” in the Biblical book of Acts, or perhaps pondered the crimes committed in the name of Christianity – Tough questions, bright questioners –and Ravi stuck in the middle! Listen to his responses to tough questions from a live audience at Georgia Tech –


Each one is 12 or 13 minutes or so.

Part 1
http://www.rzim.org/radio/archives.p...=detail&id=472

Part 2
http://www.rzim.org/radio/archives.p...=detail&id=478

Part 3
http://www.rzim.org/radio/archives.p...=detail&id=484

Part 4
http://www.rzim.org/radio/archives.p...=detail&id=491

Part 5
http://www.rzim.org/radio/archives.p...=detail&id=496

 

These broadcasts are sponsored by a gospel-promotion site? Whew, OK, I've listened to the first part only of this...
Part 1
http://www.rzim.org/radio/archives.p...=detail&id=472

...up to "the four questions". I can't bother to transcribe his text, which must be copyright, anyway...

Here is my point: Who is looking for answers to these four test questions? It appears to be his litmus test for the validity of a religion-to-choose.

That, then has no bearing on my not-godly life. Or.. perhaps my life IS godly?
That is, my living without meaning to rob or harm my fellows. And help when not to inconvenient to do so. (Oye, we're all so selfish, really, to our biological cores.)

My biological imperative is to survive, period.
My ethical imperative is to to this in way reasonable and relatively harmless to my fellowmen.

Now, what more do I want? Nothing. That many religious people are incredulous of such a bare -empty- shopping basket... I cannot deny.

"But you must wonder why you're here on Earth! You must know there was a Creator! You must know there is eternal life for you if you accept Jesus Christ as your savior".

nope. not interested in that. More interested in de-convoluting the wierdly twisted mindings of peeps who feel a need to make grandiose sweeps of Creator patterns to become sort of demi-gods themselves. "He made man in his image"

piffle I say. piffle. I won't use any bigger words or arguments than that.

Q: Does sentient life exist on other planets? Many including myself would presume so. To you Christians: is this sentient life elsewhere, is it Christian?

If not, why not. If alien life IS Christian, how so?

Here, calling the Mormons. They have the answers. quack or quake? It's a crevasse.

 

this may seem ignorant to some and im ok with that....but..

one of the many things i just dont get with most religions...christianity, muslim beliefs etc...is how can i put any trust at all in things people wrote when....

- back then they thought if you sneezed..you were losing part of your soul..which is why people say "bless you" when you sneeze? (i never say bless you btw, but will say thank you if someone does say it to me. out of simple respect) ..yeah i think this also had part to do with the plague possibly as well which is more legit, I admit

- like greedy people the big religions trampled down everyone else so really...is christianity for example so strong now because its pure? or is it because wiccans and pagans and everyone else were so persecuted that they had to fade away or die? (makes me think of Chronicles of Riddick honestly)

I think the only reason you see more and more Wicca, Pagan and such openly now is people are finally not so scared of someone burhing them at the stake or drowning them etc...

** there is a LOT of good from christianity, Judism, islam etc...and I respect a lot of it please dont think I am saying it is all bad. I am saying the history has some evil moments which make one question why they are even popular/trusted NOW

some great minds on these forums I respect ya'll!!!!