"My ethical imperative is to to this in way reasonable and relatively harmless to my fellowmen"

I don't understand why you feel in any way obligated or any purpose for "Ethics"... if we are only the product of uncountable atoms grouped together, solely different from a door, or a wall, or air itself, as we possess the capability of reason and free will...
v
I cannot buy the arguement of ethics for the value of the ethics themselves... what is the value of life, or mankind, within the atheist philosophy? Where is the origination of Good/Bad behavior and why value or condemn behavior as it helps or hurts fellow men... why care if it does or doesn't...

If we are only physical and we are compelled to survive in the best way possible, there seems to be many things that we do that uplift and maintain the weak at the expense of society and the strong as well... which does not make sense... as it would be better to do away with the weak and the old, to better society and humanity itself, if we are only physical... but it still comes back to purpose of why contribute to society anyways....

what purpose? and why have a purpose in the first place?

And I do believe that mankind is inherantly selfish.... what in history has EVER, EVER shown otherwise with any success?

A Basic observation of the world around us and the nature of humanity itself consistently points toward the supernatural.... whether it's christ, or not, is a different matter....

I'm consistently surprised that the most brilliant atheists overlook basic history and human nature, while consistently having so much faith in an unproven and idealistic perspective of the nature of man....

 

the way i see it...the people that did these jihads, crusades, and inquisitions in the name of their religion do not really represent their religion's belief system...as far as i am conserned no religion says it "okay" to kill people.....and you are right they deserve to be punished...they'll get whats coming to them.

 

One more thing:

I am a believer
But i have no problem with people who dont want to believe in God, in fact one of my best friends is an athiest . all iam saying is that plese dont discourage others who do believe. In this day and age poeple make fun of Christ soo much...jus watch the simpsons, family guy, american dad, and hollywood movies....n i think that wrong and offensive. religion shouldnt be made fun of. and please understand that not every person that calls themselves a Christian is a TRUE CHRISTIAN...and that not all Christians are the same

(i believe there is plenty of scientific proof that supports the existence of God).

Also many people dont believe in a God not because of lack of proof but rather because they choose not to....people dont want to be accountable for their actions. Many people are actually "God Haters" yet they dont want to look negative to tey call themselves athiest...they actually give athiets a bad name because they refuse to believe in a God.

...sure we can all say that we are "good" people or that we have lived "good" lives, but that jus foolish because we have all done bad things and things we regret doing. ...so are we truly "good" people...NO have we truley living "good" lives...NO

Also most of the legal laws that govern this wonderful land are taken directly from Biblical Laws.

you can believe whatever you want to believe...even if you dont believe in a God....that os still a belief system.

if anyone wants to talk about this...or hear my reasons for believing in a God, espically the God of the Bible...please PM me. i will be more then happy to talk and supprt y beliefs....btw i can support it with scientific facts that have been proven by the Bible....iam looking for serious, stright forward conversations... thanks for listining.

 

Obviously, the individual who posted that, ceased to invest the time to listen the the second set of recordings fully, as they would have at least exposed themselves to the true perspective regarding those atrocities....

I have a hard time respecting someone who ceases to invest the time neccesary to fully understand incredibly complex beliefs, yet feels the ability to comment regarding that said belief...

Even bugs me that SciFly stopped so soon...

Some of my favorite atheism related quotes....

Humanism or atheism is a wonderful philosophy of life as long as you are big, strong, and between the ages of eighteen and thirty-five. But watch out if you are in a lifeboat and there are others who are younger, bigger, or smarter. --William Murray

A little philosophy inclineth man's mind to atheism, but depth in philosophy bringeth men's minds about to religion. --Francis Bacon

Without God man has no reference point to define himself. 20th century philosophy manifests the chaos of man seeking to understand himself as a creature with dignity while having no reference point for that dignity. --R. C. Sproul

For Sci Fly---

Still, even the most admirable of atheists is nothing more than a moral parasite, living his life based on borrowed ethics. This is why, when pressed, the atheist will often attempt to hide his lack of conviction in his own beliefs behind some poorly formulated utilitarianism, or argue that he acts out of altruistic self-interest. But this is only post-facto rationalization, not reason or rational behavior. -Vox Day

 

WeDriveScions - It's like people who push creationism (sorry....intelligent design) are basically saying, life is so complex and so perfect that god must have made it. Maybe at some level (and I won't deny the arguments), or maybe everything is just seems perfect because it has developed based on the conditions that exisited.Did god change the conditions to create us, or did the universe and life evolve based on what existed?
That Vox Day quote (and I will admit to not knowin who he is) seems to imply that ethics/morals can't exist in a vacuum and that they have to come from god. Basically, an atheist can say he believes A is right and B is wrong because that is what he believes, but if he says that he is lying, because that value judgement really comes from god.
Crappy, roundabout way of making my point, but I hope you understand what I'm saying.

Every day we assign values to actions, objects, emotions, etc. We don't need god to tell us how much a quarter is worth, why do we need god to tell us whether an action is good or bad?

I'm not a philosopher or anything, (I'm more concerned with paying rent, blowing money on entertainment and keeping food on the table) it just seems to me god is a way of denying that we have truly free will.

 

im wondering how there can be "borrowed ethics" when Christianity and aka the bible is a NEW religion lol

there are religions that are FAR older than christianity and "god" why on earth do people seem to act like its been around since the dawn of time...when honestly it has not

druidism, paganism, hinduism, egyptian...quite a few were around before suddenly christianity pops up

the bible itself is a funny book to me anyway, the darn thing had men sitting around trying to decide what to put it in...there were things "left out" of it....

it just seems to "created" and made-up to me anyhow..its not all bad...I just cant find anything worth my time in it

I personally believe there are things in this world/universe i cannot explain...but i also think religion is nothing more than people trying to put a finger on it...make it tangible in some way....and that is not at all bad, but im not the type that needs/wants that

the fun part is that we all at least are free enough to enjoy these types of debates and chats because that is the beauty of it all...to me anyway

 

ok this part i have GOT to get out...its more of a question really

what is up with people who put their hands up to the skies when they do things like...score a touchdown, make a big home run...win a grammy award

what in the world is up with that??

I mean seriously...do they think that god is just chillin in a chair saying hmmm..ya know what...let me divert my attention away from those children being molested ..and go ahead and help this guy score a touchdown!!

I know some religious friends who agree, im just curious about it overall. There are times I thnk "some" religious people are honestly trying to convince themselves which is why they gotta keep bringing it up.

last question: if your a very religious person....do you think its weird when someone says "JC" instead of jesus christ??

I was at a meeting at work and someone asked who we would want to have with us if we were stranded on an island...you got your people like me who were practical...said people like carpenters and stuff...

then one person says "yeah id like to have JC with me" my first thought was...is that an R&B artist or something? i mean really..its a simple practical question ..if ya wanna say "yeah id pick anyone cause my faith would help me....." etc..thats one thing, and a good answer

hope that doesnt sound negative, its more like a hands up in the air kinda going....HUH??

 

With Jesus anything is possible!

 

Lookie, you can easily overwhelm -me- by filling a posting with so many loaves and red fishes. If this is to be handled I need to focus on one statement or questoin at a time.

If the Christain readers want to fill this thread with gobbly____s, mulitples flaying fashions then I get flushed out. I will have to pick and choose which red herring to bury, one at a time.

one: The discovery of Fire. the wheel, modern medicine, LCD monitors and everything else. Nothing supernatural about these things. Trees, DNA, the law of thermodynamics. Natural wonders. Nothing supernatural about these things. The only "supernatural" is what -you and I cannot understand- (and there is much of that). But JUST becuase we don't/can't understand so much yet unknown, does NOT make it supernatural.

Or would you rather continue to worship trees like your pre-Christ ancestors?

one herring per posting please

 

Hey, that's just -me-. I think I have that Empathy thing inborn. Many do not.
But, between the empathy that we all have, to some degree.. between -that- and -secular laws of society, is -enough- to ensure minimal standards by which our society can and does function.

 

elusivedragon wroteYay! You see the light! They do this because they are part of the God Team. They are Gippers for God. They are "saying" God gave me this touchdown or home run, and smote my opponent with shaming defeat because I am more godly than the opponent.

It is egotisitcal infantilism, is what that is.
It is self righteous self justification and is always narrow.
It is Prideful bahavior and is at the expense, really, of fair play.
IT IS THE ASCRIPTION OF SELFISH HUMAN'S Victory to a guiding, giving God As Coach..

It's all so stupid and immodest. Really good Christians, the grown-up ones, do not do such basely silly things.

-----

Q: -What is humility? -What good is pride? -Do you ever say "I'm proud to be a Christian"?
-What does saying "proud" signify to sensitive-others?
How do pride, dignity and humility interelate?

 

Oye Vey (sigh)

Without Jesus, then, not anything is possible. No arabic numeral system, no electron theory, no victories for sports teams, no Jewish violin virtuosos. ???? And with Jesus, anything is possible: Trailer parks, Notre Dame Cathedral, Conservative politics, flat minimum wage scales? The feeding of the poor by church-based volunteer groups, Crusades, and the prevention of 9/11. All this is possible and less and more and so, "with Jesus anything is possible" is quite sadly, literally true.

in other words, except as fautly, Orwellian mantra, that statement, WJAIP, means absolutely nothing to the thinking man.

 

If something good happens, it's thanks to god and his help. If something bad happens it's because "everything happens for a reason", "god has a plan" and "god works in mysterious ways". Like you say, it's all ego, and means nothing.

But it's not that different than putting some window dressing on it and saying that any value judgement ever made has something to do with what god said.

 

No, it's sponsored by an athiest! Did you even bother to listen? Of course not!
Had you listened, you may not have asked all the following questions that you did. Even from a non-religious aspect - The PHILOSOPHY of Jesus Christ is beyond any approach to mankind for society.

What you did, which is quite common with people that do not have the tools to properly debate the facts, is create a fallacy of logic argument. (Man is mammal, dog is mammal, therefore man is dog)

Ravi is not some preacher somewhere shouting scripture. He is one that deals with FACTS. Take 45 minutes out of your life and listen. You have no loss in doing so, but an eternity to gain! If you enjoy an intellectually honest discussion about philosophy....

As for your question about other planets and Christians. Again, lack of knowledge and the desire to understand it before degrading it. Christ did not come here to create another religion. He came for the Jewish tribes and others not of that flock. Man created the religion to unify those that follow Jesus Christ and his teachings.

 

They raise their hands praising GOD for the gifts they have been blessed with to do what they just did. In essence...GOD is bigger than they are and they are not ashamed to admit that and they are smart enough to admit that!

Really good Christians....I'm sorry Scifly, but I doubt you actually took the time to know one.

A man breaks into your hame and steals your clothing. Later that day a bank is robbed and someone recognizes your clothing. The police show up and arrest you. They explain how they recognized your coat, pants, shirt, shoes, hat....it was YOU. You then say someone stole your clothes and it may have looked like me....but underneath...IT WAS NOT ME.

All good Christians give thanks for everything to God.

 

If you want a sole issue or question to address in a single post... address this question...

If all we are in a physical collection of atoms, meant only to exist for a short temporal time, WHY behave in any manner of compassion or ethical behavior? What purpose does that serve?

The answer must be rational and non-circular... In other words, you cannot say for the betterment of man, or for the collective betterment of society, as what intrinsic value do those have as well if we are only a collection of atoms and are absolutely gone after our sliver of existence...

The circular arguement is what Vox Day addresses...

"This is why, when pressed, the atheist will often attempt to hide his lack of conviction in his own beliefs behind some poorly formulated utilitarianism, or argue that he acts out of altruistic self-interest. But this is only post-facto rationalization, not reason or rational behavior"

The scariest thing regarding pure atheism to me is the reality that inside of the solely natural... there is no ethics... it's pure unadulterated survival of the fittest, compassion and ethics have no role to play. In that as well, it ceases to define purpose on any grounds other than "To contribute to society" which has no grounds outside of ethics, which is circular, which I can never accept... it's not a rational argument....

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hey, you guys can't forget all the catholic priests that are doin the shibby shibby to little boys now. That religion manifests homosexuality, which is funny because I was told that homosexuals and black people were marked for death. So if this is so, then why do they keep priests from getting married, other religions allow it, im sure it's cuz they know what happens with a room fulla dudes.

 

Because compassion and ethical behavior make life "good". (ie life is not as good when everyone is killing each other) What is wrong with wanting life to be "good". Most people realize that if they behave ethically and with compassion than our temporal existence will be "good". Maybe you come up with your own definition of "good" or maybe you rely on god to tell you what is "good". Because life is short is no reason not to live it the way you see as "good".

Why not? Why can't I say these things a valuable to me in my life right now, regardless of what happens after I die?

Who is Vox Day?

 

I will quote myself from a past thread......"All I'm saying is let people believe what they want to believe for whatever reason they have to believe in. No one person can say with 100% certainity that their belief is more accurate than anothers, nor the reverse. If we would all realize that, then we would be able get along with people no matter what they believe. Its funny how beliefs seperate us so much when no 1 belief is any more truer than another. It is just that, a belief. So I believe that all things are pretty much beliefs and the justification for those things are beliefs....lol."

Honestly everything is a belief and debatable. For this thread to be titled "for non-believers" is misleading. We all believe in something to some extent. This world and everything in it and about it is all beliefs. We don't even know if we really exist, we just believe that we do. Because we all are different and every single persons life is different we believe what we believe for whatever reason. That doesn't make our belief any more valid than anyone elses. That's why religion is so controversial, becuase no one can say for sure that it is true, sure you can pull facts and make analogies, but all those things are beliefs too. So where does that bring us, nowhere. Even "non-believers, believe in something. Or that could just be my belief....lol. But that's the point, you cannot call truth a belief nor the reverse. Everything is debateable, nothing is for sure, everything is a belief.

 

There are many false statements out there regarding scripture...yet they have no truth in scripture...it just "Looks Like It Is". See my analogy above about the bank robber.

From scripture - Paul states that an umarried man or woman should focus on God and not on wordly things. However, it is better to marry than to burn, so if you must (have sexual relations with a woman)....then marry. But, you must focus on your spouses needs as well as God.

Priests and Nuns take this approach that Paul "prefers others be as he is" and if they were true to their faith....then it is their true gift to commit to God.

The color of ones skin has no bearing on Christ. Homosexual acts on the other hand are very well pointed out. Man will not lie down with another man as with a woman. I know many say this is outdated or if God loved us he would over look this....but that's not how it works. That's how our society works. Anyone can justify anything at any time for any reason.

Everyone has their sins to deal with and the true test of faith is how you deal with them honestly. Catholic Mafia kinds of people crack me up sometimes with the go kill someone...get a few hail marys and go kill again.

Stop doing that and now go and SIN NO MORE