I have drove one and they have impressive torque.

 

I wonder why they did not make a Xb hybrid, after all I'm sure the Prius drive train/engine etc could be worked out. It could have been the first hybrid mini-mini van.

 

I think that right now hybrids are over rated. The mileage isnt much better than a small gas or desiel 4 cylinder in a light weight car. Those cars are usually very cheap especially with a manual trans. Hybrids cost several thousand more than other cars of similar size. Until they become higher volume cars the prices wont go down much. Maybe if you got a tax break on it more people would consider them and that could help get more of them out there and help prices go down and also become profitable for the car companies.

 

Umm, because the xB was a minimal cost rework of a JDM econobox to allow Toyota to launch its new youth brand?

Not that I'm complaining, as that is the car I wanted.

Still, would sales of a $21K sticker hybrid xB be as good as the conventional xB? I really doubt it.

 

Toyota has said that all cars they make will have a hybrid version available as an option, I've assumed that means Scion and Lexus too.

It doesn't need to sell as well.

 

The key word in that statement is "will".

Let's assume that you could get a hybrid xB at a $3000 premium. Would it be worth it? Let's crunch some numbers:

Standard xB: 16,000
Hybrid xB: 19,000

Real World Mileage of stock xB: 28MPG
Real World Mileage of Hybrid xB: 45MPG

I know that the EPA sticker says 60 on a Prius, but the EPA test is fooled by the fact that the hybrid operates with the engine off at times. Real world Prius owners report 45MPG, so I'll give the benefit of the doubt to the lesser aerodynamics of the xB and use the same number.

OK, let's say that you plan on owning your xB for 100,000 miles, after which it has negligible value.

100,000/28=3571 gallons
100,000/45=2222 gallons

So, you save about 1350 gallons or about 3500 dollars at current SoCal gas prices.

So far, you are about $500 ahead

Not bad, but of course you also have to account for the value of the extra money tied up in the car. Figure $3000 in a reasonably conservative investment for the 6 year ownership of the car would yield about 5% per year ($150) or about $900.

Now you are $400 behind.

So, it's pretty much a wash. However, I have been particularly optomistic about the hybrid's performance and service. If some of the hybrid drivetrain parts (including the $$$ battery pack) go south, then you could be way behind. There aren't so many risks with the conventional drivetrain. You could also get quicker payback if the price of gas goes up, but it is already near its historical (adjusted for inflation), high. Such spikes have in the past dropped back down to a level well below their maximums.

Resale value is another thing. A Toyota with 100K miles on it should be readily saleable, but if hybrids get a reputation for needing a $3000 battery pack around 120K miles you won't be able to give them away after 100K. Until the real-world battery life is determined, people are going to be wary of hybrids with 100K+ miles.

George

 

^^^
Yeah...what he said...

 

Honda Insights have been on the roads since '99. Isn't that long enough to gain at least some knowledge of how well battery packs hold up?

It sure is!

http://www.insightcentral.net/KB/faq-purchasing.html

A new pack costs $1226.75, and is warranted to last 8 years or 80,000 miles.

So figure another $153.35 in annualized maintenence (if you drive only 10K/year) for the hybrids, or another 61 gallons of gas. (at $2.50/gallon).

In my tC the 10,000 miles would take about 400 gallons of gas, in a 50 mpg hybrid the 10k miles would take 200 gallons of gas. But after deducting the 61 gallons its still like saving about 139 gallons of gas a year.

Also,

that only applies to people who bought their car cash up front. If you're like most of us, you have to finance the car. So people should be dinged on this one twice, once for the opportunity cost of a foregone investment, and then again for however much the interest charges on the loan are.

Anyhow, right now its pretty clear that buying a hybrid solely for the reason of trying to save money doesn't add up, but it should also be clear that the economics of it are gradually shifting to the hybrid's favor. But people buying a hybrid aren't totally looking for a purely logical vehicle - for them, there's an emotional connection to it just like there is for someone who buys a sports car or a 4x4.

 

The Prius pack has 38 6-cell Ni-MH modules, as compared to the 20 in the Insight, so the cost would be a bit less than twice that of the Insight's pack. I was also figuring on a more realistic 15,000 mi/year.

 

Technically, according to the EPA and DOT, the xB is an "MPV" or Multi-Purpose Vehicle. And guess what, that is same classification that all SUV's fall into.

That is why the xB is allowed to have the rear 3/4 glass tinted from the factory. Ever notice the only vehicles you see with that are SUV's and minivans? That's because they both fall under the "MPV" classification and are thereby allowed to have factory installed tinted glass.

Wagons, sedans and the rest are not allowed to come with factory tint because tint laws vary from state-to-state and any tint is illegal in some places (like Washington DC)

So the xB is an MPV, not a wagon.