If you check even wikipedia, it's not very clear how the iSt is related to the Platz or the Vitz. For simplicity sake, I call the ist a 'banner'... kind of like there's the Yaris 3-door and 4-door. I don't know how the three are related and quite frankly, I don't think I want to know.

Though, I don't think the xD is a rebranded Matrix, since the Matrix shares a frame with the Corolla, and the Matrix is almost a foot and a half longer than the xD. They do share the same exact engine (2ZR-FE) though the Matrix has the XRS model with the 2AZ-FE (same as the Scion tC). The xD is somehow related to the vitz/ist, and I thought I knew, but xstandxstrongx has a different take.

Yes and no. They are both corolla based vehicles. However, the 2009 Matrix XRS == Scion xB2, which ends up being a great buy since the xB2 is less expensive and has most of the features (just not the looks, which is subjective).

2009 Base/XR != xB2, since the Base/XR has the 2ZR-FE 1.8L engine.

Going back to the xD thing - I can kind of see how Toyota is saying 'ok, let's make a sporty but small 5 door' to distinguish it from the Yaris; but all the reviews seem to give it the same kind of feel that the original Matrix got, which is to say that it's not sprightly.

So, the question remains why Toyota decided to make the xD at all given the Matrix was on the market for four years at that point, and was already suffering from lagging sales (which is why it's had three design revisions since '03).

The xD may have been a bit more accomplished had they given it the 2ZR-FE, but that would've been XRS/xB2 territory.

The xB2, Matrix and Corolla are all the same platform... all three are basically the XRS model with different sheet metal. It would've been nice if the xB2 had the 1.8L option, it's not as though it would've been extra work.



If any official from Toyota wants to chime in and straighten this out, now's the tiime...

 

It's not. That's where I'm doing the majority of my research on this damn subject, and it's still clear as mud.

Well, if you look at the frame differences; no, they aren't similar. I'm not saying there's platform sharing going on, but there's definitely not much difference between the xD and Matrix or Corolla or Yaris. I think that the only constant through all of this discussion is that the xD is a USDM something, but we really have no idea what, as it's probably just a mix of all three of those previously mentioned vehicles. It just strikes me as just more of the same stuff we see in the US coming from Toyota, which is unhealthy for a brand that made a name for itself giving us completely different stuff from Toyota US and great alternatives to the USDM market.

EDIT
Okay, here's what I've found wikitrolling around through Toyota's pages again:

The Toyota t2B concept became the Scion xB2, which inspired the Toyota Corolla Rumion.

The Scion xB2 inspired the Scion Hako Coupe, which is based on the emerging American vintage style trend among young Tokyo trendsetters. It is a car designed for Scion's demographic in the US based on what that same demographic in Japan want.

The second-generation Toyota ist is the basis for the Scion xD, which is essentially an elongated JDM Toyota Vitz (which is a USDM Toyota Yaris), with a USDM Toyota Matrix engine. There is no five-door USDM Toyota Yaris liftback because it would basically be the same thing as the Scion xD.

That kind of cleared things up for me, as far as the histories of the recent lineup additions go. I think.

 

man just put out a new tc lil more power limited slip stock and sqiush it into a mold and out will come happy children all over the world THE XTREAM DEVIANT must destroy all

 

I know I said I'd get to you Dogbert, but I don't even know where to start correcting you. On the last page you were mostly wrong on this one you were more right...I don't see a point in adding my .02

 

I'm... not entirely sure what you mean by all that. My last post is entirely right; I'm taking information straight from Google searches and Wikipedia, so I'm not sure where you'd "start correcting me."

All of this BS about trying to figure out the new lineup's lineage is just trying to prove my original point (and kind of proving my point in itself) that Scion isn't doing what it did when it started. Designing a Scion after a concept to fill a market that it's already got a car in? Creating a concept for the target American generation based on what the same Japanese generation want? Mixing-and-matching almost the entire USDM liftback lineup to create a car that's basically the same as all of them? Here, here's the old lineup lineage:

The Scion xA is the export version of the JDM Toyota ist. It is based on the JDM Toyota Vitz (which is the USDM Toyota Yaris).

The Scion xB1 is the export version of the JDM Toyota bB. It shares an engine with the USDM Scion xA, and thus, the JDM Toyota Vitz.

The Scion tC is the export version of the EUDM Toyota Avensis. It's front wheel drive, unlike the Avensis, and shares an engine with the USDM Toyota Camry.

Now compare that to the new lineup. The similarity between the two is that the xD and xA are both basically Toyota Yaris'... and they're both the slowest selling car in Scion's lineup. The xB1 filled a niche in America that wasn't filled before by a car that was already proven successful in Japan; the xB2 took the "bigger, faster, more expensive" approach to that market that was already, for the most part, spoken for... with a car that had never even seen any other market. And, well, the Hako concept...

What I'm trying to convey is that they need to freshen up their lineup, not just give us "bigger, faster, more expensive versions" of the cars that we already have, which they've been doing ever since their sales started to diminish.

Replace the xD with the Aygo as their "small city car", the xB with the Porte as their "mini-MPV", and the tC with the MR-S as their "sporty coupe". Fresh and different, not bigger and more expensive.

 

After this little exercise of car genealogy, I'm now more than ever convinced Toyota is going the way of GM.

Toyota was growing steadily and selling well over the years with a very straightforward product lineup. It's only recently that these lineups have gotten so incredibly muddled, for no convincing reason.

So, Toyota's sales are down, but Honda's sales are up across the globe, including the U.S., growing by 3%.

I think I'm with CDogbert on this one, but I don't think their though processes should change with respect to only the scion lineup. There's a well established tier difference between Lexus and Toyota. What is the difference between Scion and Toyota when the cars are remarkably similar?

 

Just a thought:

Last year, xB2 sales overtook tC, and the tC remains lower than xB2. Seems like it's definitely time to introduce a replacement.

 

Not that I don't believe you, because it definitely would make sense, but do you have a link to monthly sales numbers for the xB? I can't find any on a cursory glance, and I want to see what kind of numbers Scion is putting out knowing (last I've heard) that they're operating at a loss right now.

 

toyota releases each month's sales report - if you google toyota monthly sales instead of scion, you should find it. or you can search on autospectator.com.

 

Much as I love a lot of the ideas we have here, I think the reason Scion's success is diminishing is because there's no continuity to the lineup and no way to please everybody. Scion has fallen prey to it's biggest success... and while some see radical change on a continual basis as a way to keep it fresh, the curse of "the box" is also a hinderance to Toyota going forward. Change it too much, people squawk and curse and cry in vain. Keep it the same and Scion loses it's vanguard nature and becomes just like everyone else. Common, staid, and generic. I always felt, at first, that Toyota had no need for a quirky new brand but just needed to bring over the quirky cars that people saw in Japan's mainland and wanted. Well, they did that but they sold them under the Scion label.

The xA came here as a micro city car at a time when there wasn't a ton of city cars out there. Now, there's a whole onslaught of 'em and in some ways Toyota's intent on milking the xA for as long as they did sort of caused sales to diminish, and nothing was really done to inject life into it over the course of it's lifespan. After all, I consider this sort of like the coupe segment, and the coupe segment... cars are only "hot" for about 5 minutes before their fame diminishes and there's need for something new. Scion as a brand needs to keep things changing, but that doesn't mean a brand new replacement model, that doesn't mean a radical change in direction in models... that does mean, changing pace in any way you can to stand out.

I'm of the opinion that Toyota's goal of "lowering" the volume of Scion is absolutely dumb. When you put together a company with the intents of selling vehicles, you don't intentionally limit sales. You aim for the ceiling. I know there's sort of "cultish" approach to how Scion is being controlled, but I feel that it's the wrong approach and have felt so from the start. It shouldn't be about cultist notions, it shouldn't be about limiting success. It should be about make the necessary micromanaging decisions to assure that '07 and '08 and '09 will vary as radical in as much as some elements stay the same.

Scion to me is the youth brand. That is what it was put together for. Yet does Scion really get the youth market? The tC compares favorably to the Si and Cobalt SS (non-SC) and some of the other non enhanced coupes/sedans in this segment, but with cars like the Cobalt SS SC and Neon SRT-4 and the Evo and WRX and R32 enamoring kids... many are willing to forego a new tC for a used one of the above. I think the tC's performance missed the mark, largely because while the Si was the benchmark of what kids were ga-ga over, that mark changed when the power wars climbed. FWD pocket rockets still have their appeal, but AWD turbo missiles appeal even more. RWD sports cars do as well.

From a "brand" standpoint, it's never felt like one. The logos are cool, the dealer environment = nice (at least at my dealership), the marketing = pretty clever and feels like they're hawking some absolutely out of this world product... but how does the xA, xB, and tC feel... brand centric? Answer... it doesn't. They look as different from each other as possible. They don't even look like Toyota's. They look like orphans. Like a modern day Pacer, Gremlin, or the unloved Aztec. Even there... they can't all agree, While the xB is odd, and the xA/xD = semi generic, it's the tC's almost teutonic design roots that make you think Bangle (Chris) more than Box.

Some will say that the tC was the blandest of the 3, some like me look at it and think of it as a slightly less powerful Si with the looks of something akin to a small BMW, with an interior design that is quite clever. There's things I'd change as a tC owner... but the design (or at least the overall sihouette) isn't so much it. I love my tC and I think it's a very sharp coupe. I've had co-workers run across my lot and gawk and stare and tell me how awesome my car is from the moment I got it (FM '07 tC). It's more some material selections, things I'd give up to get better functionality (I don't need a heavy glass panoramic roof, although I love my sunroof... I just wished it had a sliding shade panel vs. the roll-up vinyl variety) and the desire for a bit more room inside. I'm not saying Super-size me... I'm saying a little more legroom fore/aft, bit more trunk room, change the stereo cover to a metal panel vs. plastic or build some additional bracing to the door so it's a bit firmer, and I'm good. If I wanted anything more than that, I'd likely buy a Solara or be clamoring for a new Supra or want to see more of the Scion design DNA applied to the car's basic shape.

Yet... I think in the end that the tC could've easily been a Toyota. I think the xA has been proven to be just as "out there" if not a little less out there as Toyota's own Yaris. I think the xB2, while quite cool in person when it's decked out (base stripper it looks hideous with the tiny wheels)... still kind of strikes me as a car that's not that radically different from the Matrix in size/shape, esp. now that the hard edged corners of the original have been left out in the rain to round off like a bar of soap.

Toyota has too much going on and there's not enough to differentiate the product. Some of the product overlaps so much that it's hard to figure out what makes an xD hot and cool and what makes a Yaris... more geared for Granny and Grandpa or some mid-life crisis people. If Scion sold the Yaris, if Scion gave the dealer options list of aftermarket parts for the Yaris, I can see it being just as hot/cool as the xD. There's no substance there that says "THIS IS SCION", it's more like "Oh, we're Toyota's youth brand... Yay! ::waving little pennant close to chest::.

I think the Youth of America is wanting a small, RWD drift car. I don't necessarily think it has to be an MR-S, I don't think it has to forego a roof or a backseat. If we wanted that, we've got a Miata, Sky, and Solstice to choose from and last I checked none of the above are a dime a dozen. Judging by the poorer than poor MR-S sales, there's a good reason why Toyota shelved it too. It wasn't selling. Not any better than some are squawking about how Scion's sales are going right now.

I think the xB owners liked the box because it was a pint-sized utilitarian city car that had tons of attitude. In a world full of rounded cornered aerodynamic vehicles, the xB stood up in the face of jelly beans and said "Here I am, love me or hate me" and people chose their sides. The XB2, by comparison... has outgrown the diminutive packaging to the point that while it has appeal to those that like it, it's not nearly as well liked because there's too much competition in that segment, and because it's hard edges have given way to softer curves... chamfered and filleted to the point it's a bloated and yet watered down reincarnation of the original.

Sure it outsells the tC, a car that's been on the market for a # of years and of which has changed very little since being launched. Sure it outsells a coupe where sales peak and taper off from the moment it hits the showroom. That's not unexpected. Fact is, can it outsell the original xB if sold side by side? My guess is... a new bB would outsell the xB2, esp. when you have similarly sized/spec'ed vehicles like the Matrix and Vibe and other models out there in the segment capable of eating the xB2's sales.

To me Toyota's objectives for Scion need to be:

1) Identify a Scion "identity". Give it a styling theme they can somehow find a way to apply to all of their cars (so instead of Toyota's youth brand, it becomes "A Youth Brand" and doesn't require Toyota to gear towards the non-youth), and yet... find a way to make each car have it's own unique personality. Find a way to make them radically stand out in a crowd. Toyota is your safe zone, they're the company that sink or swim, is conservative to a T... Scion doesn't have to be! LoL In fact, it shouldn't be.

Much as I even love my tC, if Scion wants me back into the mix they need to give me more. I've thought long and hard and I have to admit that a next-gen tC should carry styling traits of the xB/Bb, it should push past them and create more styling themes that deviate from the norm. While I hated the Fuse concept, it wasn't a total loss and there was elements like what they did with the headlights that made me think they were on the right track. The lights... looked xB2/bB-ish. That's great. It's the nauseatingly flattened top roofline and hideous hearse-like rear backlight angle that gave me the *****'s. Give the body mass, give it a sense of style that deviates from the norm even if it's overall shape or silhouette isn't... and we'll be there in droves whether you're building pick ups, FWD or RWD coupes, hatchbacks, boxes, 2-seat roadsters, or mini SUV's. In the end, a car is a car is a car... but it's how you accentuate a coupe, pick-up, sedan... that sets it apart. Scion can do so much more than it has to this date. So much more.

2) Set a pricepoint and don't exceed it. Each model should be marketed to the target demographic. That doesn't mean that the product won't appeal to others' outside of that demographic, but the target should be... youth. Period. Youths are usually not making as much money as those that are a bit elder. If an elder person with some money wants to buy a Scion, well... maybe they get it, they get the crazy styling, they get the crazy culture of optioning things to the gills, they get the pure price policy and the "club-like" fraternity the brand brings. Yet when the cars are starting to all gravitate towards the low-mid 20's, when the styling of some look no different than the Toyota's selling on the same lot (much less the Honda's and Mazda's down the street) Scion's heading in a bad direction for it's target market. I don't think Scion is about strictly appealing to Gen-Y or Gen-Z, or Gen-AA or whatever. I do think however though, it's the prime audience and it needs to do that as well as possible.

3) I think it's about appealing to the senses and giving people stuff that hits their sweet spot. A RWD drift car with the culture of drifting being popular in the U.S. that's affordable and that a kid out of H.S. can aspire to and save for is a HIGH watermark product that Toyota needs to be on quickly. Cars that have a polarizing balance of both masculinity and femininity, and that are love it or hate it... ARE Scions. Where Toyota's are more conservatively styled, Scion's need to crank it to 11. While a typically Japanese design looks antiseptic, a Scion needs to look like a samurai warrior in full-on war-clad attire ready to strike. Cars that eschew being the conservative Toyota commonality, that don't look like a shrunken Camry (i.e. Corolla or Yaris Sedan), or a shrunken Highlander (which to me, many of the hatches kinda' fall into)... are Scions. If it scares Auntie Faye out of her socks and makes her hide behind the Prius... they're on the right track.

That should be what Scion is, that is not what the xA or xD were. They're really not that dramatically different than a Honda Fit or a Nissan Versa. How does that work when you blend in rather than stand out? As much as I love my tC, I even get the reality that the tC could've just as easily been fitted with a Toyota logo and a Celica badge and no one would've noticed. There's elements in the tC's DNA that make it right (i.e. I loooooooove the cover over the radio, it might not be executed perfectly in it's plastic selection, but it's still something I'd miss if my next car doesn't have it ::hint, hint:, elements to keep and build from... but in the overall scope of things, it's the one Scion that doesn't draw an immediate "Oh that's a Scion" in as much as it makes you question "What brand car is that?" That, to me... isn't what Scion is about nor should be about.

4) I've said it before and I'll say it again, Scion needs to remain fresh. That doesn't mean it needs to kill off good ideas or reinvent the wheel. Sooner or later, you're going to run out of things to invent. The company can't exist as a protest to the status-quo by trying to be the most exacting opposite of what the status-quo stands for. There's going to be compromises, going to be a need to assimilate in some aspects. To me that freshness isn't about redesigning the whole lineup every year, but that freshness COULD be about changing things up yearly. That could mean making Scion have "models" just like other companies. As it is you buy the blank palette and add to it, as it is if you want an automatic or manual it has to be brought to you or has to be on the lot in your specific color. How about those that want a tC with more oomph? How about a turbo tC or xB2? Should they be denied a potential success for Toyota simply because it's deemed taboo to have that within your cultural dealership zen? I think not.

What if someone wants a car like a tC, isn't concerned about 280 horsepower and having it corner like a slot car. What if they want their tC and want it to get decent performance, have decent handling that's still comfortable, want it to look sporty, but... want a hybrid option. Should that be taboo? I think not.

Rather than feel this compelling need to change things up every 3-4 years, why not change some of the little things... yearly? How about radically mixing up the color palettes? How about... offering Flint Mica on an xB, or bringing the entire color palette of the xB2 to the tC for a year and vice-versa? How about radically changing the colors on a yearly basis? How about offering a # of different options on a yearly basis and replace them yearly?

To me... This is the type of creativity in sales that stands apart from the rest of the field. It's the type of things that take a brand that is supposed to be about thinking outside of the box, doing things differently, being out there and creative... these are the things that will make that legitimate. Anything less than that is being a poseur, and the last thing Toyota needs is for their Scion youth brand to be a sheep (Toyota) in wolf's (Scion) clothing.

Toyota needs to make sure Scion... is a genuine Wolf. That isn't about curbing or diminishing Scion's success to try to continue to make it successful and not get played out. That's not to limit available product, but to make sure that any and all available products aren't mistaken for anything but a Scion and while everyone zigs, they zag... innovation Youth = fashion, and Scion is a fashion brand, and trends change year-in and year-out. Does that mean Scion has to put their eggs in one basket and milk it to death? No... Chevrolet muscle cars and foreign sports cars stand the test of time for what they are, they've defined their niche, but always find a way to make it fresh and interesting even if in some entity they ape on the retro flavor and appeal to our heartstrings of cars of lore..

If Scion is going to stand the test of time, it can't just be a fad... and sadly, that "fad" element of the original box is going to come back to haunt the brand 'til it's demise unless Toyota can create a brand, create a theme, and build products to fit that theme that appeal to those that they're supposed to, box or no box... it has to be iconic, it has to be Scion. A brand that is instantly recognized as a Scion and not mistaken for anything else. regardless of whether it's a coupe or sedan or roadster or hatchback or SUV or pick-up. Products that don't become played out because of creative efforts to assure that there's a limitation on the select colors and options on each model yearly, and that a rotation scheme is implemented on product and inventory to assure that an OBX shift knox is replaced with another brand or model of ****, an AYC tail light kit is replaced with a different set. Different steering wheels, different interior colors/materials. Different grills, different wheels, different spoilers. Take and make a radically different RS series available for those even more out there that want to stand even further apart. You need to build the cars that appeal to a wide range of that demographic, but you need to give enough option to make them unique, and enough effort to assure that things don't become played out.

 

No... I want the 280hp turbo coupe thats AWD or RWD. I'd also settle for a 2dr/4dr hatchback. But it has to look good and not break the bank like and STi or EVO. Thats where the tC or Toyota Coupe of some sort needs to go IMO and I'm sure I'm not the only one in the world who thinks so.

 

Look good and not break the bank? I agree; however, 280 hp turbo is a bit of a stretch. Though, I guess it's possible since Hyundai can do it.

Since we're all throwing in our opinions:

Scion tries to market to the hip hop crowd. That's fine.

But they're leaving a different underground demographic a little dry. This Scion Speak thing with the family crest has a few options like "Grease Monkey" and the wrenches and these things that would suggest a tuner but they're forsaking these tuners.

I think Scion is forgetting that not everyone who rejects the mainstream listens to hip hop. Some of us prefer the sound of ratchets and impact wrenches and we deserve some love too!

IMO, the car for the niche is a small 1.8L RWD coupe with a minimum of standard features (standard Scion head unit, power windows, AC, rear defrost... basically, ditch the glass roof and some of the sound deadening material and extras.) I want Jack Hollis, for when he introduces this car, to say, "we cut every corner possible in making this car."

 

actually, FWD pocket rockets are probably quite a bit more appealing (at least as far as sales #s go) than RWD or AWD. Think about the FWD "performance" models, GTI, Si, Cobalt SS SC/TC, Mazdaspeed3, Cooper S, HHR SS, etc, and compare that to RWD models (Mustang, ummmm... RX-8?) or reasonably priced AWD models (WRX, Lancer Ralliart, ummmm...). If Scion tries to put out a $27k or $30k AWD sports car, it'll kill their image as a "youthful, entry level car brand".

I said it in the other thread, but the real problem is that if Scion is to go after the youthful, entry level group who otherwise wouldn't give any thought to a Toyota, then they need GOOD TOYOTA PRODUCTS that bridge the gap. All of us are on here b/c we bought into that philosophy, but now what? Scion's trying to keep us by offering bigger, and more premium product (bigger xB, bigger xD, etc) and is then alienating those who wanted an entry level, lower priced product. Toyota, however, has offered NOTHING to keep us in the fold... I have a tC. When I'm off to replace it in another year or year and a half, there isn't a single Toyota or Lexus product that I'm going to look at. Do they really expect me to make the jump from a $16k hatchback to a $30k IS250? There are no performance models in the 20s to look at, no "premium tC" if you want to think of it that way...

Yup, me too. But the thing is, it doesn't have to be a Scion. If they don't want to price Scion's into the 20s, fine, offer a sporty, turbo FWD to compete with all of the cars I mentioned above and call it a new Celica. Offer a RWD sports coupe and call it an entry-level Lexus 150 and price it at $22-24k (like Acura did with the RSX). Just offer SOMETHING to bridge the gap between fun, entry-level cars like Scion and old-fart cars like the Camry, Solara, a plethora of SUVs, etc (and to the luxury $30k+ cars like Lexus).

Otherwise there's not a whole lot scion can offer in the sub-$18k market that'll keep me walking into a Scion dealership in another year or so.

 

Dante, I couldn't have said it better! I've got a little over a year left also & I'm thinking about a V6 Camaro or Genesis coupe!

 

Funny you should mention that. We traded the tC for a Mazda5. It's actually only a few inches longer than the tC and has the same wheelbase, and roughly the same engine specs. We weren't looking specifically for that type of seating arrangement, just something with four doors.

The funny thing is, we waited to trade solely because of the Toyota Blade. I owned an '03 Matrix, and have lamented the fact that they kept making the Matrix more bland over the years (and raising the price while cheapening the interior). More of the same this year, so we just went and bought the 5.

In the same vein, I'm thinking very hard about trading my xB for a Mazda3 (or a fully equipped 5 GT, who knows).

The funny thing is, Mazda's offerings now remind me of Toyota's offerings back in the mid 90s - something for everyone. Doesn't seem to be the case, anymore.

 

Vitz Turbo. I have one on GT4....
now if only in real life...

Toyota - gas prices are still on the rise - why are you making bigger cars with worse mileage? Where are the micro cars? My XA looks a LOT better than the Yaris.

 

Dear Toyota,

I am coming to the end of my payment schedule for my tC that I bought when they first came out. It's a great car, and it's served me well. I've spent a lot of money tweaking it out and turboing it up. I will be keeping it as it's a great toy.

Now I am older and make more money. I'm not going to lie... I have been looking around. Just looking! You know you're my baby. It's just... well, you don't have anything for me now. You've put on a lot of weight. You've lost a lot of your charm. Nissan is looking really good these days. Super sexy curves and fantastic cockpit interiors with built-in navigation - and don't get me started on the POWER of the Ultima Coupe's V6, off the lot. (Oh what a turbo could do with THAT!)

Oh, don't look at me like that. Please?

Toyota, now that I'm ready to graduate from the youth program, all you have is a Camry, which has to be what you had in mind when it got to this point. Really, that's all? I was sure you'd have my Supra ready by now.

Is the magic gone?

 

By the way .. I sold my tC about a month ago and picked up an '08 Mazdaspeed3... I just wish Scion/Toyota would follow suit and produce a quick, turbo, competitor. My local Mazda dealer has an 2008.5 Mazdaspeed3 in white out front right now and they want only $21,799 and thats what I'm talking about, there is no reason that Toyota/Scion shouldt be able to produce a 270+ hp turbo 4 banger in sexy sheet metal.

 

That sounds perfect. Yes.

 

UMMMMM This would be along the lines of what Im talking about, Hell even a 4 door hatch like my MS3 could be nice..