In a sense, Honda's had the same problem with the Element since launch. It was originally designed to be a uniquely styled vehicle geared towards Gen-X and Gen-Y, and their needs as being outgoing X-Games fans... needing a vehicle to haul their stuff around (i.e. mountain bikes, snowboards, DJ equipment, etc.), that was affordable, and easy to clean out. Instead... it stood out in a crowd enough that the elder crowd saw it as cool and the younger crowd stuck to used Civic's, Z's, Eclipse's and the aftermarket scene.

Scion's greatest asset is it's affordability, but the reality there is... even if you cut the #'s of available cars, the odds of them getting all of the people that fit the desired "market demographic" for the brand are going to get shrunken down as they can't discriminate on who buys one if they walk in with the cash or credit line. So yeah you might prevent some 30+ year old's (like myself) from getting the cars, but you're going to limit the 18+ year old's too. It's easy to say "That's cool..." when they're going to limit it, assuming you're going to get one... but what if you're on the outside looking in? It suddenly begins to suck in a big way if you can't buy what you want because it's limited in numbers.

I think they shouldn't try to restrict the brand, not try to cut the # of vehicles sold, but really begin to try to push the differentiations enough to keep things fresh. Try to push the culture more, which regardless of age is something you fit into or don't. I've seen a lot of box stock tC's rolling around... which tends to make you wonder if that might be part of the problem. How about Toyota ships them to the dealers on steel wheels (no hub caps by default) and gives you an option of 3-5 different wheel designs at each varying size, along with maybe an array of hub caps too? Change the factory taillights every year on each model, but offer 3 or 4 different taillight designs as options. It'll make each vehicle look more personalized because it'll make people use the options palette a bit more, make them make choices. It's nothing to see a bunch of tC's in my neck rolling on the stock wheels (only tC's I see around here that stand out... one guy has the red RS 1.0 and drives around Brookfield/Lyons, the other is an blue RS 2.0 that's over in Countryside Mall a lot)... and it makes it hard for me to decide what color when I see 3 Flint Mica tC's almost daily and multiple Silver tC's (my 2 favorite colors). Granted, I'm thinking about the 18's, the pedestal spoiler, and the body kit which would set mine apart from those I've seen... but... even there, if I could get a Flint Mica with the RS 1.0 wheels... I'd be even happier.

 

Now THAT is starting to sound like what every US make did for 50 years the "let's change the tail lights so they think they have to buy a new car" routine.

The ability to view the base vehicle as a starting point for something original (not just choosing which options to have the dealer bolt on) is a large part of the mystique Scion is pushing for. Yeah, they'd like you to buy the dealer options, but only as a starting point.

Even *I* don't understand "different just like everyone else" individualism. Either one is an individual - has their own style - or they are simply following someone who does. Some lead, some follow, some don't even know there is a parade.

Tomas

 

I beg to differ on this. For one, most of the efforts during that timeframe were to keep the product fresh and keep interest (trying to retrofit a '55 Chevy taillamp lens to a '57, or a '57 tailfin fender on a 55 is going to take a bit more than a bolt on. LoL). With the sheer # of different auto makers on the scene at that time, there was considerable efforts to try to outdo each other. There was no J.D. Power and Associates or Consumer Reports/Consumer Guides ratings back then... it all boiled down to product identity, desire for a particular model, and brand loyalty (i.e. my dad was a Ford man, his dad was a Ford man, etc.). Now most makers spend so much time using "consumer clinics" to build a car to last 4+ years on showroom lots, they sit in awe and wonder when stuff like the Aztek, Compass, and other models are ill received. "Well it did well in the clinics..."

That just doesn't cut it.

Those changes were hardly translatable to today's models anyhow or what I was speaking of earlier more succinctly. What I'm speaking of is, for the most part, user identifiable parts... parts they select, parts they add to personalize their vehicle. If this idea was a fallacy, as you seemingly suggest... Scion wouldn't have implemented the whole deal in the first place, and SEMA would be a bomb rather than booming business. Since neither one are true and SEMA is a huge raging success, and since many other auto makers are looking into Scion's "customization" in-house philosophy... you now have GM, Volvo, and others adding these features. The Mini by BMW has an extensive options list that is enough to choke a horse.

Scion's efforts were to build a car that has everything that most of the public is going to add to their cars anyhow. Look at what a standard tC comes with... the only "major" choices are the transmission, airbags (or the autodimming mirror), and whether or not you want the Supercharger (manual only). Everything else is dealer-installed, and this isn't trivial little stuff like AC units and power windows/locks like you'll find optioned on at your local Honda or Mazda dealer. The tC comes loaded to the gills with all of the common options *most* people add to their cars. The options you add to a tC are almost all personalization options... whether it's different wheels, underdash lighting, body kits, 2 different spoilers, shift *****, pedals, door accents...

But the reality is... what's so different about a Scion? The no-dicker sticker? Umm... Saturn has that, many other companies have added that. Styling? That's always a matter of personal preference and it's going to take more than that when there's many attractive cars priced in this market. I wouldn't vouge to say that the Mazda 3 isn't a stylish car with great handling, it's just not as good a "value" as the tC... as by the time you make the 3 match the tC in standard features and power, you're $3k over the sticker of a base tC. Even there though... most of the options you can add to a Mazda at their dealership have been no different than what you can get at the Honda dealer down the road, or the Nissan dealer, the Chevy dealer, etc. Mood lighting, different shift *****, trunk organizers, door sill plates in polished aluminum, aftermarket LED taillights, carbon fiber b-pillar appliques... that's not your average fair.

Yet Honda is starting to build up option parts for their models now to rival Scion. Chevrolet is moving this way. If Scion is going to offer a 2-box mini minivan, a small b-class Hatch, and a 2 door sport coupe and keep them on the market for multiyear runs... offering them every year with minor tweaks and a special limited edition release series doesn't sound that groundbreaking. I mean... special limited edition cars? Hrmm... that's been going on since the 60's. Every other car maker puts a car out on the market, lets it sit for 4 years with minor tweaks (sometimes even they change the color palettes ::gasp:, and replaces it with something else. That's old hat... and nothing noteworthy. Funny deal is... that's Scion too.

So they're going to cut production? If you can keep interests in a car for a 4-year run, especially a sport coupe, you're doing pretty good. Many of them have initial "impact" factors that trail off yearly. Ironically, I think the tC is getting more popular as time is going on. Yet I think that really comes down to what I said above, value. So what if it can't outrun an Si box stock, without throwing every performance option you have at it and outpricing the Si (i.e. strut bar, TRD lowering springs, TRD struts/shocks, supercharger)... that's not the Scion's focus really from what I've seen. It's about making a statement, getting a good value, and having a blank canvas to personalize to fit you, as well as to be a part of a brand that's about standing out, getting in with the culture, hyping itself by being different. Yet how can you do that if you're following a lot of the same philosophies that Toyota always has and continues to? The personalization options list was awesome on launch but it's not changed, and it's all too easy to see the same car over and over when the irony is, even Scion's site has mentioned the # of variations you can theoretically make.

Individualism isn't about necessarily having the latest JDM parts from Japan, a screaming banana or lime green paintjob, and some Kanji graphic stickers slapped all over your car. It's about fitting your personality, making the statement you want to make. While Scion raised the bar over everybody at the dealership-level (and was innovative in ways that no mass produced company has been), you can bank that a curb in production will affect the aftermarket adoption. Yes... the aftermarket is a great thing, but it's not Scion's advantage. I mean... it's an old hat deal that's been going on since long before Toyota was a success in this country. Your Vic Edelbrock's, your B&M's, your Hurst's, dare I mention even J.C. Whitney? Go further on down the line, might as well add HKS, Mugen, Mazdaspeed, and even groups like Tein, Hotchkis, et al. into the mix. Many make parts for Toyota/Scion's staunchest rivals and have since before Scion even existed...

What most of them rivals don't have is an in-depth dealer options list with obscure items to make your car truly stand out the minute it leaves the showroom floor. Scion seemed to be going into all of this with an outside the box way of thinking that was fresh and innovative... give you a car with about everything you want without much gimmickry. Why put roll up windows on a car if 99.999% of the average market options them off anyhow? Leaving AC off when most people will add it on anyhow? Why spend the extra costs on stuff that are only going to sit in a receptacle someplace unwanted and unused. They put everything *most* people would want in a car, it might not be your JDM wannabe tuner fare that probably would love a radio delete, to option off the AC, order it with a metal roof vs. the glass roof... but is that really a Scion customer? For some... yes... but not all. People that buy Escalade's and slap on 22-24" rims aren't looking to break the land speed record. They just want to make a statement, to stand out.

That's what the xB, which is perhaps the landmark car of the lineup, stands out for. You can tweak it up but in the end, the engine in it is not an Si killer and there's not much attempt to even try to make it one at the Scion dealership. There's no supercharger kit for it. It's basically an econo box with a lot of room inside for a small car, great mileage. It's practical. Yet beyond that, it sticks out amongst a sea of cars that look completely different. It zigged when everyone zagged. Yet... if you think it'll always be that way? That's hard to say. I can remember when the Ford Taurus, of all cars, came out and was a runaway success. While everyone was shaped like a big old brick... they went for a jellybean. It sold in droves. A scant few years later, finding a brick-shaped sedan was largely some 8 year old product left as a remnant from a company that was eeking to get by, much less a product designed to stand out and make a statement.


Yes and no. Most every sporty import car has the aftermarket interwoven into their genes. That's no different than seeing a rather pedestrian and mundane 80's Civic decked out with lowering kits, rims, and other parts. Scion isn't against the aftermarket, but a big part of Scion's focus is to bridge between the aftermarket and even bring some of the aftermarket to the dealership. I'd read in an article awhile ago from an exec in Japan, who mentioned something to the like of being inspired by the phenomenon that is Gran Turismo, and wanting to use that "feel" in giving the Scion dealerships that level of feel. Like you buy a car and customize it on the spot. To personalize it the minute it leaves the dealership so it stands out, unlike other dealership networks and makes where you buy a car with a set # of options or "option packages" that are more rigid and restrictive to the customer's senses.

I'm pretty sure that outside of the stripper tC, that their goal is that everybody will leave the dealership with "something" in their car. I doubt Toyota would spend the R&D money to stock shelves with parts to accent and customize the cars if they didn't want to see people graft them on. Whether this is a success or failure remains to be seen... as I've seen a lot of more "stock" tC's in my area. In contrast, I've seen a lot of xB's rolling around looking like mini billboards "wrapped" with vinyl graphics to support a company. I've only seen 3 xB's in my neck that were customer owned... one was on aftermarket rims but otherwise stock, one was decked out to the gills with rims, lowering kit, cat back exhaust, and a custom "ghosted" logo on it's right side, the other... driven stock by a 30+ year old mom at the school I work at.

The point is... some are okay with filing in like lemmings, buying the same car, with the same colors, with the same options packages, and seeing 20,000,000 others like them in a line somewhere. Others... as numerous people on this thread have chimed in, want to be able to drive around and feel like they're the only one driving one of these, in that particular color, with those wheels, with those taillights, etc. I've seen other postings on here where people went as far as to sell their rims because someone else bought a set of rims just like theirs, even if it was on a car different than theirs! To me that's a bit extreme... but since Scion seems concerned about losing it's cred, it's image... I'm just looking at things from the perspective I thought Scion was originally about judging by everything I've ever read about the brand, from the people that conceived it.

I've got a copy of Import Tuner sitting right next to me as we speak, the January 2007 issue. On page 54 there's an article called "Repeat Offender" with an RSX owned by Keit Hong. He speaks in the article on page 56 "I want to be the first one on the block with the latest, hottest JDM parts for everything... I am always trying to stay ahead of the game."

While to some that might seem a bit ridiculous, considering he completely rebuilt this car from a magazine featured car already (sanded the previous paint to replace it with a Porsche red)... to some, that's their thing, their motivation, their desire. I won't venture to say I'd be trying to build a $50k+ tC with option parts, but I would like to build something reflective of my tastes, but something that's a daily driver and that doesn't void the warranty. I'd also prefer to have a tC that stands out a bit from the next guy's without going hardcore ricer and sprouting whiskers, carbon fiber door handles, and a day-glo paintjob... and the best bet for doing so, much as others on this thread seemingly agree, is for Scion to differentiate their product and offer more dealer options. The aftermarket will follow the car based on it's success. Cutting sales will cut the aftermarket. As an owner of a car that's not the most popular 2 door coupe of it's era, finding aftermarket parts for it is like trying to raise the dead. Considering the tC is not a JDM car, finding an aftermarket culture for it from off the boat is laughable at best at this stage. Much of it's aftermarket is U.S. spawned and intrinsic to it's sales #'s here. Cut them, and you cut the aftermarket... which seems to point towards differentiation from within, if you truly think about it...

Why cut potential sales and additional successes for the brand just to try to keep a brand popular or cult-like. The real key to a sub-company of the world's largest automaker to retain it's cred, is to keep doing what made it stand out in the first place while meeting the demand. So far... the verdict is still out. The one thing that set Scion apart outside of the funkiness of the xB, is the way Scion's are sold, and the Scion's are accessorized. In terms of DNA, I would say that these 2 things are more important than Scion regurgitating another box onto the masses again. The tC and xA might not stand out as much as the polarizing love it or hate it nature of the unique xB did... but both are or could be successful if given the accessories to do so. xA fans have squawked long and fast about how "ignored" they feel, and judging by how many tC's I'm seeing lately... I'd venture to say it's perhaps Scion's most popular model. Popularity doesn't ruin credibility, it's how much the product fits the DNA of what Scion is trying to build, and how much Scion gives itself the length of the leash to keep it fresh and keep the hype coming, and back up the hype year-in and year-out. Cutting the # of cars sold isn't going to change that... helping assure that more cars are going to stand out year-in and year-out so that Scion owners feel less like Lemmings, and more like a faction of like-minded rebels... will. If that wasn't true... there'd not be the "car club" atmospheres (people getting together to hang out and show off their cars) that spring up on these very boards.

 

I certainly won't take on that entire, well thought out post, but I will comment on just one tiny part you may have misunderstood.

Earlier it was suggested to 'change the taillights on every Scion model every year,' to which I replied
Let me attempt to rephrase just a bit to try to make what I was referring to more understandable. To do so I'll use the '55 Chevy you mentioned - and that I bought in '64.



The '55 and '56 Chevy's were really the same cars with different taillights and grills. The engines, running gear, and most everything else on those two care were for all intents and purposes interchangeable. They made those minor exterior changes to induce the public to buy the 'new' model since it was obviously different from and therefore somehow 'better than' last year's 'old' model.

The Scions, other than the release models, are pretty much the same over their entire three year model runs - as they should be. The xAs had the largest body style changes, and the only thing that accomplished was to make the old parts not fit the new, but not to make the owners of the old want to replace them with the new.

All I was getting at was minor cosmetic changes every year to differentiate model years are not necessary, nor even desirable, in the Scion line. The longer the same exact body style is in production, especially if production is limited, the better chance that aftermarket suppliers can see enough cars their product can fit. The more cars to fit, the more potential sales, and the more potential sales the better chance of getting into production.

(And for those trying to differentiate THEIR vision from the vision of every other owner, different OEM taillights every year won't cut it.) :D

Tomas

 

What I was suggesting isn't a matter of remodeling a car yearly in terms of completely different body panels, but more is akin to the RS philosophy but applied across the board on a yearly basis, without handpicking colors, or handpicking the options that come on the cars. If you replaced some/most of the colors yearly (in a Scion-like twist, replace the more popular colors with a different shade, while replacing the least popular colors with a completely different color), that would be enough to make each year's models stand out from the year previous, without a drastic change that would affect aftermarket support. If an aftermarket supplier is going to supply parts, the odds of them "color-keying" to a specific paint scheme isn't very likely, as each batch of paint applied to every Scion model isn't going to be "exact", and likely would be matched to the car at an auto body place vs. making spoilers in the exact body colors. Stuff like taillights, wheels, carbon appliques, etc. would likely be made to work on the entire lineup's color palette, regardless of a change or not.

The tail light changes would be nothing more than a simple rear lens retrofit, which is no different than the optional LED taillights we have now. I know that the taillights themselves aren't a drastic departure when compared to the rest of the car (but they are definitely an area paid considerable attention by passer's by or fellow drivers, at least hopefully), but when combined with a # of other little things such as a different yearly paint palette, and perhaps a yearly wheel change for the base and aftermarket wheels (or at least more options), they can increase the # of options and make the cars stand out year to year from each other, without drastically changing things, requiring new panel fits, etc. I wasn't implying that they need to make new fenders or reshape the front nose yearly as was commonplace some 50 years ago... I was more suggesting that the adornments of existing fitments be played with more to stand outside the box. This is something the domestic makes *NEVER* did and to this date, no one has done on U.S. soil.

Many choose the standard 17" wheels because the 18" wheels and tires on the tC can impact not only the ride quality of the car, but also can make the car heavier (unsprung weight) with little performance benefit, and also could lead to shorter tire life. Having multiple 17" options gives the end-user a standard choice, especially if the 1-3 alternatives are no-cost options, and both fit within the warranty scheme would help differentiate product and make them seem more valuable if they had flash and appeal to them. The same could be done with the 18" wheels to provide those who want the larger wheel/tire combo more of a choice to stand out without voiding the warranty as well. This isn't something that the domestic makes did either, at any time frame. They would offer a steel wheel, and maybe in the 60's would offer a sport wheel as part of a package for the car. That's *NOT* remotely what was being suggested here. In fact... the RS series as a whole isn't very different than many of the 60's-esque philosophies, whereas what I'm speaking of would be outside of the box yet again because it allows you to mix/match more without establishing a Scion xB, an xB sport, an xB Super Sport, an xB Sport Area 51 Super Funkwagon edition as would've been done in the 60's and 70's. Think Charger Daytona, think Superbee, Think Super Sport, etc. That's *NOT* what Scion thus far has tried to establish or build. Even the Supercharger isn't a tC SC edition, it's just a bolt on part to the base car provided you have a manual.

The moral of the story... the reason the makes used to do this was because there was greater competition amongst the brands and they had to do what they could to stand out yearly, to garner more sales. To say it was put into place to make the buyer of a '55 Chevy want the '56, '57 is largely moot. There wasn't leases back then, there wasn't the desire to buy a car and turn around and trade it in nearly as much as today. Many bought cars and drove them for a # of years. The real reason that cars were changed so much was to keep ahead of the competition at the dealership down the road. With makes like Hudson, Studebaker, Nash, Ford, Mercury, Chrysler, Buick, Desoto, Oldsmobile, *****'s, Pontiac, Kaiser, Plymouth, Dodge, La Salle, and others available at this time, and little competition based on magazines like Consumer Guide or Consumer Reports (non-existant), as well as J.D. Power and Associate's ratings... the reason cars sold were increased features and styling that fit the consumer's tastes. Even the muscle cars during the late 60's and 70's did everything they could to outdo each other, with louder paint, wilder graphics, marketed "names", funky "meep-meep" horns on the Roadrunner, et al. While styling is still important, it's not the sole reason people buy a car today. The #1 selling car in America isn't one because it's a rolling work of art today, as anyone knows... it's because it's practical reliable transportation that coddles you in affordable luxury with bank-vault level integrity and acceptable performance. It's not about standing out with a Camry or Accord, it's about driving in comfort and having peace of mind.

Yet with Scion, which is an image brand, styling is imperative to what the brand is trying to achieve. Cars like the xB aren't remarkably different than cars like the Fit, the Versa, etc. mechanically. It's not going to make Mini owners take notice on performance merits, it's not going to make a GTI look silly. Even the tC isn't about smoking an Si. Yet with how Scion is treating them, they're making the cars impeccable values and giving them a painter's canvas sensibility and providing the palette to accesorize them on the lot like has never been done before. While this is a big part of what sets Scion apart at this moment... it's not something that in the near future will be solely a "Scion" thing as I noted above. Other makes are already working on this, some dealerships are even looking into dealership-based warranties on installation of parts they've purchased (similar to the proposed SEMA warranty). In some ways, if you can overlook GM's penchant for reliability questions... the Chevy Cobalt SS (non-SC) already is a great value with good bang for the $. It has much of what the tC has stock, has options the tC doesn't offer (i.e. heated leather), and with GM looking at adding more of an array of GM dealer-installed options, is slowly looking at offering things to the car that make it very Scion-like in the way it's offered.

The aftermarket is old school, it's a thing that isn't anymore Scion than it is Honda, Nissan, Chevrolet, or Ford. Yeah Scion will exploit it, but so will and have everybody else. What *IS* Scion is trying to stay ahead of the curve, keep it real and funky, be forward thinking, fresh, and to provide a reliable car with flash and give you the ability to bling it out at the dealer, but also to help provide a bit of uniqueness. It's like the old coach builder philosophy of the 20's and 30's brought down to the masses, but in a practical sense, in a less costly sense, but in a way that provides bang for the buck and a way to express yourself. Think of it like a road going tattoo, one where you can create your own identity.

Cutting sales just sounds like wrapping a noose around the brand, that's not thinking outside the box... that's closing the box up and going Studio 54 on everybody. This isn't Disco people! It's not about being selective with who you sell to, it's about making people be selective. Making the product stand out, and thereby giving the owners something to express themselves with. While the aftermarket is there... and has been, Scion's philosophy brings the aftermarket idea into the dealership. To keep it going and keep the unique image, you can't sell the same car with the same colors and same options every single year 'til it's cycle is up. That's no different than anyone else.

Changing it up, injecting life, building cars with divergent colors yearly to cause people enough alarm to jump on something when it's "hot" to them (i.e. colors/lights/wheels from the dealer they "feel" for), speaks to them, says "That's <my name here>'s car right there"... that's what IMHO Scion is about. It's making a statement. Judging by the mass of posts here wanting their car to look different than the next guy (not necessarily radically different, more not having the same stock colors everywhere, same wheels everywhere, etc.)... I don't feel like I'm alone in feeling that (even if quite honestly... I'm cool with the stock lights, Flint Mica or Silver paint, a pedestal spoiler and bodykit, and the 18's from the original RS... maybe with the lowering springs, strut bar, and shocks/struts as it stands... others want something different). Rather than limit sales of each model, limit sales of the car in specific colors, with specific wheels, with specific options that stand out. Offer more options (and/or alternate standard items) within the options provided to make the cars stand out. That's thinking outside the box and pushing the envelope on what was created already. Scion's already supposedly going to change the lineup every 3 model years... what's wrong with changing it up in tiny increments every year within those 3 to keep it fresh and interesting? It's better than telling someone they can't buy your car because you didn't jump on it quick enough IMHO...

Neither you nor I are the target audience really... and while some might argue our interest "taints" the brand because we're older than the people they're wanting, the people they're marketing to... it's not about age, it's about (as I've said before) "Getting it". Even if I'm not going to go all-out ricer, or going to stick a set of 13" Dayton's under my ride, or not going to slap ghosted decals all over my ride of aftermarket parts... I still get the philosophy of what I think Scion is trying to do, what their execs have said they want to do. I don't understand the cutting sales as they can't restrict the sale of cars to people within the age bracket that "get" the user experience. That would be prejudice, segregation. Yet... they can start to find ways to make those that don't get it as much as others... to succumb to it or deal with it, like it or not. Changing colors yearly, changing dealer-installed options, adding options, taking away options... creating trends, ditching trends at their most popular but being calculating to not offend or put-off people by straying too far, too fast... it's a delicate balance, but one I think Scion could achieve through careful analysis and a bit of clever ingenuity. Scion was innovative when it launched... but if they're going to stay "hot", they need to stay "innovative", and selling the same car with the same colors and same options every 3 years and relying on the aftermarket... well... that's about what everyone else does already... give or take a year or 4. ;)

 

I have to remind you that the bB was out for a few years before the xB came here to the states...so thats a production run of 6-7 years now?

I REALLY would hate to see the current style go away. Look what volkswagen did with the bug? If Scion REALLY wanted us to be able to modify and change and "paint our blank canvas", they would continue to run the current bodystyle a while longer. Back to the Bug...there are 3, 4, 5,...15 magazines solely dedicated to nothing but the VW bug and other models surrounding those awesome cars. Why? Because they didn't change much of anything in 20-25+ years.

You can go ANYWHERE and get aftermarket parts for those cars.

Maybe thats what Scion is trying to avoid?

I understand them saying "keep it fresh" but I think they are also trying to get their cars to appeal to new groups and more customers, while trying to hang on to the ones they have already.

Limiting does nothing because if you like the car and can afford it, you probably already have one...if you DON'T like it, you are looking for the next bodystyle to come out...and that's what Toyota/Scion is probably doing.

 

Scion has already admitted that the xA is done in it's current incarnation (and I thought it's replacement would use a new name), and I believe I read somewhere where the xB will be replaced with a new model (might look similar but be called something else).

I am not disagreeing with you with regards to keeping models that are identifiable, while also adding more people to the brand (which would likely dictate more models, something Scion has clearly stated they're not going to do... 3 is their constraint, and making any new models will likely have to come at the expense of the old, regardless of how you look at it) but I'm not in total agreement either. I do think there does come a time when there's a definite need to replace or at best, wholesale redesign/reengineer while clearly being "inspired" by the original.

In the case of the original VW Beetle, it was an engineering marvel (rear engine air cooled platform, great suspension design [used in offroad buggies for eternities], engineering that made some of it's construction lightyears ahead of anything in it's bracket) from many angles that was pertinent on so many levels for way too many years. It's longevity is largely owed to this, and the fact that VW used it and/or it's engine/parts bin to underpin a whole lineup of cars from the VW Thing, Karmann Ghia, and on to the Microbus; and it became very popular in offroad (hence the Baja Beetle) due to it's chassis and suspension engineering and was the source of many a kit car maker (i.e. anyone seen a Manx before?) just spell out how monumental this car was (also consider that early Porsche's were VW-derived in at least "some" ways). While many of these models had longevity, many were updated consistently with new parts and eventually the product died when it was too costly to take further. In fact, the VW Uno was killed a few years back which was the last Mexican-built iteration of the original iconic VW Beetle. It was almost impossible to build to modern crash standards, let alone take it up to emissions capabilities which even countries like Mexico are having to look at.

The current Golf-based Beetle is only hanging on because VW has no suitable platform to build a new Beetle off of at this time, it's actually overdue for a replacement and VW has even pondered whether to keep building it or to kill it. It's sized to around the size of the Polo, which isn't engineered for the U.S. Market (otherwise VW would've used it, as that was what "Concept One" Beetle concept was built on; the production Beetle is previous generation Golf-based, only shrunken to near the concept's sizing), and the current Golf/Rabbit is far too expensive... and in fact, VW even thinks it's too expensive for the Rabbit, as it's already widely known that they're working on a replacement for the just released Rabbit and hoping to get it done soon. In fact, to make the Rabbit compete with the tC, they have to cut margins razor thin (and the desirable models are pricing themselves into Audi territory, the base on the GTI/GLI is $23k sans options; that's about $5k higher than the previous model); it's not just the tooling and engineering of the Rabbit/GTI/Jetta/GLI which was originally engineered when VW was planning their "upmarket" move, it's the exchange rate hurting them as well... especially on the German produced models using this platform.

The xB, when you really get down to it, is a great vehicle but there's nothing truly breakthrough about it's underpinnings to give it that longevity without requiring platform updates like any other car. Even the Camry and Accord, two of the top selling cars here, go through that ever few years. It's more a styling and packaging marvel. Whether Scion will hit or miss on a redesign with that remains to be seen. If they move it up to the Avensis platform that's used for the tC, it might outgrow those that love the original, and be more fuel thirsty than the original box, and lose some of the proportions or uniqueness of it's small size. It could potentially grow sales though as it'd have a bit more performance and still get pretty good mileage, be capable of hauling around more without being taxed or wheezing. The spy shots I've seen clearly make the replacement look a lot bigger.

The other argument to counter what you propose... some people save up to be able to buy what they want (within practical reason... at some point you do have to bite the bullet, I'd really love to get a GTI/GLI with the larger wheels, DSG, and heated leather but I'm not going to drop $27k on one either), vs. just jump out and buy what they can afford right now. If and when Scion changes a model midstream, that could potentially put them out of the Scion lineup if the car they want no longer exists and the replacement isn't appealing to them. Case in point... I absolutely hate the Fuze concept and have already written to Scion giving feedback on what exactly I hated about it. If they put the Fuze out to replace the tC, I would likely go get a Civic or a Mazda 3. Right now as it stands, I hope to get me a tC by May 2007 at the latest. Much as I'd hate to see the box killed... killing the tC as-is would be a poor choice too. I'd love to see a redesign to carry the overall shape (the tC's long and sweeping roofline = it's sexiest trait, sharpest coupe roofline in it's class I've seen in forever) but make it more modern when the time comes. I like the Fuze's headlights and maybe it's grill/nose, but little else.

To me, I wouldn't worry about a box-shaped vehicle leaving the Scion lineup as I think it's the truest to form of the Scion products, almost iconic of the brand to many. What I'd more worry about is whether they get the formula for the next take right, get the styling right, and answer all of the concerns they can to make it as successful as they can (which limiting it would hurt). While the tC is the only purpose-designed product for the U.S. brand, I think in some ways (while it's my favorite to my tastes) it's not the car that people identify with Scion. In fact, when I told my aunt (elder) what brand of car I was wanting to get... her reaction was "Oh no, not one of them boxes?" I had to explain to her that the tC was a 2-door hatchback coupe and looked nothing really like the xB.

People do identify with the xB probably the most, much as you've noted they do with the Beetle. The Beetle is a car that some people adore, and some people think is ghastly. I consider the xB to have that love it or hate it styling, and to me that's Toyota being forward-thinking and taking a risk. Not that it's a huge risk when you've got the more conservatively styled xA (attractive still, but a little hatch that's not markedly different than any other hatch in this segment) to fall back on if the xB failed, or even having the more mundane econo car like the Echo in the past or the curious mini-Camry look of the Yaris (Echo replacement) today... not to mention when the xB, regardless of size and power, looks attractively done. The Fuze just looks garish and confused, combining round shapes with flat shapes with bulbous shapes that make it look like a mixed bag. It'd be a risk too, but one I think would be far less favorable for the brand. After all... the tC is arguably perhaps the most conservatively styled of the lot, and it's largely the most popular. Scion will have to gauge if taking a big change of direction here will do the brand well, or if it doesn't matter if the car that replaces the tC doesn't sell as well (on purpose). That could be the source of 'restriction' right there, if Scion become's Toyota's brand to take enormous risks and gambles with... and throw caution to the wind. I don't like the idea so much... but I don't think restricting sales of product = the answer either, especially if there's people still wanting one.

 

Awesome, so they are starting the limitations on the 07's? Good thing I already got one

 

The limitations have always been there, it is just that this year they let them slip a bit and produced/sold more than their business plan called for. This is merely a reaffirmation of what they have stated from the beginning, and a confirmation that they will be sticking to it.

Tomas

 

IVIIVI4ck3y27 31/M
Capone Country, IL

Wow that was a lot to read
I bought my 2005 Yellow Xb because I can fit into as I am six foot six and there arent too many other econo-cars out there that I can fit into without hitting my head in my chest just to fit in
I hope that Scion has the gumption to continue with the Box and or some variation of it that i can still fit into.
btw I am 47 years old single and I drive the local Houston metro bus and i get kidded for driving my school-box to work every day.
I Really just wished, that i had gotten the Manual one intead of the auto that i have, sigh.
p.s. mine has remained stock as it was bought off of the dealer lot steel wheels, plastic whell covers, & the 6-cd-changer indash
In comparing with the 06 models I feel that I got the best deal as i also have the fancy tunable exhust I have the bigger of the 2 tubes still in there, its sounds best as apposed to no tube installed.
here i can be found
http://profiles.yahoo.com/decentman4you2002
thanks James

 

i dont like the idea

if there arent cars available, i could see a potential buyer moving to another brand

'ugh, no tC's? how could that be, i need one NOW....ooh, did you see that orange eclipse drive by? I'm sure Mitsu has quite a few on their lots"*leaves*