Mugetsu

yeah i know the subject name sounds dumb, but i couldn't think of any other way to word it.

Ok now its been established that chips that fool the IAT sensor in to duping the ecu to dump more fuel in to the engine will eventually be ignored by the ecu.
Even through constant reseting of the ecu? Or will it always recognise the conditions the chip is trying to feed it as long as the chip is wired to it and ignore it?

Ok now lets remove the "chip" out of the equation(go ahead forget about the silly thing...lol) Lets say that you found a way of pumping a jet of "super cooled air" (not Co2) past the IAT sensor at chosen intervals(as in whenever you wanted)(in conjunction with lets say a CAI just as an example)so now the IAT is sensing colder denser air thus signaling the ecu to dump more fuel into the engine correct?(yeah i know it actually adjusts the time frame of the injectors opening and closing, but lets stick to 3rd grade "sciontifics" lol) of course this would affect fuel efficiency but would we see a gain in performance? or would the engine just lean out badly? or the opposite richen out and bog. Would the ecu eventually get wise to this trick? (this sci-fi stuff gets complicated i know lol)

anyone?

tikbhoy

are you familiar with open and closed loop?

Mugetsu

no i'm not, mechanical things are easier for me to understand but electronics give me trouble lol

care to explain?

TCgetonmylevel

well i cant explain alot, but i worked with alot of Lexus IS300s back in the day, and if there was ever a car that hated being tuned it was that car. it even got smart to just abnout every standalone we used on it. I havent the money or time to do the same to our car but its notr a surprising statement to say that our car is a bit "hardheaded" to tuning......

TcPrincess

what do you mean it got smart to every standalone you used on it? your supposed to tell a standalone what to do and it does it, thats the whole point of having one.

TCgetonmylevel

yeah but the computer would somehow overrun it after a while dont ask me how it did it but it happened

1SXETC

a standalone replaces the stock ecu...so how did the "computer" (ecu) overrun the standalone??

I could understand a piggyback controller having issues with the tc's ecu and getting overrun...but not a standalone.

TcPrincess

thats what i was thinking. it defeats the whole purpose of getting a standalone.

tikbhoy

So how does the ECU decide when 'normal' conditions exist and when 'acceleration' conditions prevail? The primary trigger that switches the ECU from one control method to another is a simple lookup table, which compares throttle (accelerator) position against engine speed. These signals are both provided to the ECU from various sensors in the engine. A second trigger is change in throttle position (delta-TPS) - a large enough change in throttle position over a short enough period of time will also cause the ECU to enter open-loop mode

Closed loop operation occurs when the engine is idling, or running at near-constant throttle position at near-constant engine speed. During idle, the ECU actually has two goals: one, to deliver the correct fuel, and two, to maintain the idle speed at 750 RPM. The fuel is handled by controlling the injectors and using the oxygen sensor for feedback. The idle speed is controlled by the idle speed control motor (ISC), using the crankshaft angle sensor as feedback

tikbhoy

thats from a dsm thread, but that should make sense somehow.

Mugetsu

Holy fraggle rock tikbhoy, that spun my head around beetlejuice style then completely flew over it.

please bring it down to 3rd grade level bro lol
what i'm saying is:
lets say at WOT you press a button which shoots a jet of super cooled air(the same way you would N2O just not n2o) "directly" at the MAF and IAT sensors, this jet would be at a greater velocity and cooler temp than what the CAI is drawing in.

what would happen? would the ECU immediately adjust the A/F ratio? or would the engine just run very lean? mind you the "jet" of air is introduced in the same way N2O would be at WOT then "turned" off once you reach desired speed or reach 5 gear.

repeatedly doing this, would the ECU catch on and run the standard A/F maps or would it be fooled every time?

Wasson_A

The computer would take the information that the air temp sensor is sending and correct the fuel tables accordingly. But at wide open the tables pretty much go out the window. If I remember correctly at WOT some of the parameters arent checked or something (its been a while).

Also what kind of chemical are you thinking about using? Water/methanol is good, but with problems. If you inject the mix before the IAT and the mix hits the sensor, then the sensor will actually end up colder than the mix and cause trouble. If you inject after the sensor, then you have to change the fuel tables to show the computer that the temp in the system is lower than what the sensor shows. That inturn causes a problem when your not using the spray because the engine is setup to run with the mixture, when the mixture isnt being used.

You cant use CO2 that cause the reverse effect as NO2, CO2 removes air.
What you could do is introduce a CO2 cooling aparatus in the airtubing that would cool the passing air as it enters the engine. But, you have to make sure that the gas doesnt enter the engine as said above.

I think thats it...

Mugetsu

truth fully i want to use Dry N2O. I just wanted to avoid mentioning it cause of the usual response to it(negative)

its been established that the Tc's fuel system set up makes using a dry shot of n2o impossible what with the lack of a return fuel system and no adjustable fuel preassure regulator or available vacuum lines.

its just that no one seems to be certain as to just how much or if at all the Tc's stock ecu can compensate for changes in air density or temp or pressure. Thats what i'm trying to find out Sure you cant install a dry n2o kit in the standard way, by using a vacuum line to make the fuel pressure regulator pump up fuel pressure, but what about introdusing the n2o directly to or at the MAF and IAT sensors and forcing the ecu to adjust the A/F maps? n2o is colder than air but is it denser?
mind you this is all sci-fi talk since i'm not schooled in any of this stuff lol

speedelement

"Nitrous oxide has this effect because it has a higher percentage of oxygen content than does the air in the atmosphere. Nitrous has 36% oxygen by weight and the atmosphere has 23%. Additionally, nitrous oxide is 50% more dense than air at the same pressure."

If you sprayed it into the MAF..... good luck. The stock system isn't going to meter the incoming air correctly at all.

Mugetsu

I see your point...
what about with a simple A/F management unit like HKS's A/F Regulator which allows manual adjustment of A/F ratios in one degree, richer or leaner, 12 minute adjustments 6 rich 6 lean.
or maybe a Camcon?

speedelement

You would still have to worry about ignition timing when spraying, and it looks like HKS' AFR only lets you adjust +/-1pt air/fuel, which isn't going to be enough.
After all that hassle you would end up with just a dry nitrous system, going cheap on nitrous (and any other power adder) may end up costing you a lot more.

Mugetsu

hmmm...no wonder n2o shops just shut you down as soon as i mention a dry shot on this car...
but would a 50 to 75 "wet" shot really be that much simpler?
wouln't that still require timing adjust? is a "simple" N2O set up on this car really just a pipe dream??