Joe_Dezod

We're planning on using the Emanage setup for our tC turbo kit. We're using a custom built P-n-P harness that allows us to alter ignition timing, fuel percentages, fuel injector pulse, and all by using a Greddy MAP sensor. Whether the stock ECM compensates or not, it definately won't cause a rough idle, and when it's floored AFRs should stay in a reliable range.

Simplyscion

You guys arent worried about the long term fuel trim kicking in and re compensating for the emanage settings?? Even if the AFRs are in a reliable range, there still not where they should be, and could possibly get worse and worse as the computer learns more and richens up the motor causing it to bog down under boost...rough idle wont be a problem, but adding the injectors will throw a PO172 System too rich (bank 1) code that will never go away. I really hope that using the emanage w/ their MAP sensor to tune wont get overidden by the computer after some mileage, but I honestly think it will....hopefully Im wrong

Joe_Dezod

Unfortunately there's no way to tell until it's actually been months on a tune. It's not like it takes your ECU 6 months to re-tune itself. It learns pretty quick (usually over a one week span) so we should have an idea pretty quickly. It seems that other members on this site are not running into issues with the Emanage so I don't anticipate too many problems.

We're choosing to not use the MAF for different reasons than correction issues. Using a MAP is much better for tuning and allows us to have more flexibility with our maps. It doesn't cost a rediculous amount more so why not.

HawkINX4

a lot of the rsx guys and si guys are using FMUs... for some reason that seems to work.. even celica owners use FMUs since the celica computers like to reject certain products such as the s-afc which will let you control fuel to an extent... i wonder if our tc computers are the same? knowing toyota.. it most likely is

matty-tC

3rd gen eclipse turbo guys are running vortech fmu's also

lo_bux_racer

All true, but TCCS is a bit different. They use short term and long term fuel trim corrections based on O2 sensor feedback. Short term affects long term when short term trim exceeds 10%. You can see where the trim is by looking at a voltage Vf. Its between 0 and 5v in 5 distinct steps. It lets you know what the ECM is doing to trim fuel. Ideal is 2.5v indicating no signficant correction. At 1.25 and 3.75, trim is moderate either rich or lean. At 0 and 5v, the ECM is dialing in the maximum +/-20% compensation to the fuel maps.

Some Supra tuners have just slammed against the maximums to get the cars to run, but then they usually develop long term problems.

Some more background info...the ECM is only closed loop up to ~75% load. Above that it runs pure open loop with the long term fuel correction factor applied. That's why people have problems with TCCS. They tune by rpm, not load, so they dial in a correction at some closed loop value, the ECM changes the short term/long term fuel trim, and now the WOT/open loop corrections are screwed up. You can really end up chasing your tail for months on this.

So the real trick is to completely fool the ECM with your tuning device. Unfortunately the only device that really does this right is the HKS F-Con V. The eManage does a good job correcting, but you need to monitor Vf and make sure the adjustments you make don't put you too far out for closed loop operation. Many Supra tuners now use fuel correction only at 75% throttle position or greater, or they pick an arbitrary rpm, typically around 4500, to start their corrections. Trying to fix part-throttle and idle conditions will really drive you nuts with piggybacks (now you know why the AEM ECM is so popular despite all the hassles of getting it to be happy for a daily driver).

Again, if it is possible to gain access to the base maps with a reflash, all of these problems can be ignored because you're fixing the issue at the source, and all the very cool features of TCCS that make it so wonderful for daily driver/turnkey operation will work as intended.

-Keith-

Very well put!

-Keith-

So this harness comes with your kits? Is that the harness your showing everyone for plug n play? If you use the emange dont you get the same thing just have to tap the wires in by hand?

Simplyscion

Yea, all it does is save people the time of splicing the wires, also good if you dont feel safe cutting your stock harness.

raamaudio

Alot of great info and very serious questions on this thread.

Here is a simple yet presumably acceptable way to solve the problems associated with the learing curve of the stock ECU.

Any comments on this simple idea would be much appreciated

Quoting myself:

"Not so sure there is going to be a problem but here is a little trick in case there is. I forget which pin in a particular but a toggle switch on the dash can be flipped to off when you park the car and on when you get back in, once a day, every couple of days, several times a day, etc, resetting the ECU, no more problem;)"

All it needs to do us interupt the constant power from the battery, could be a toggle, a push on-push off switch, hidden and act as a another anti-theft device. It could even be tied in with the alarm remote to automatically enable or even have a seperate channel all it's own that has to be specifically triggered so it only functions when you want it to.

Rick

Simplyscion

It honestly is a great starting point and seems like a good idea, but I honestly dont know what kind of long term effects this may have on the ECM being that it is constantly being overloaded w/ unfamiliar information and continuously being reset. It may just be the temporary bandaid we need for the time being till someone corrects this issue. Now I wonder how ZPI is gettin around all these issues, unless they arent and just put the kit out anyway just to say they shipped out first which wouldnt surprise me at this point

mattssi

I had the same exact issues w/ my SRT turbo kit for the IS300. It was a piggy back system...and if you got on it after a while, it would get really lean. YOu would have to reset the ECU, and it would run correct again for a little. Standalone was the only true way to go. SRT finally started shipping their kits w/ a HALTEC E6K I believe fuel-only computer. However, you will def want to take out your MIL/CEL bulb in that case ;)

Steven_Coach

So are there companies working on cracking the Toyota ECU?

raamaudio

It has been tried many times by many people, never seen it done yet

For those concerned with constantly resetting the ECU I have done so at least 100 times on one of my cars with no ill effects.

If concerned with with any kind of voltage spike a filtering circuit could be setup easily to deal with that issue.

There are some really sharp minds posting on this thread, still waiting for more replies to my idea;);)

Rick

-Keith-

But by doing that wouldnt you be turning the power off to the emange too... wouldnt that erase the maps you have set...

matty-tC

those maps can be saved and reloaded easily

mattssi

If you look at www.turboeast.com' site, they have a "conditioner ecu" that basically, when wired in, cuts power to the car ecu when the car is shut off which erases the long term fuel trims (I believe) or "resets" the ecu. That way, every day it is reset. It is sort of a workaround really - I still think standalone is the only real way to avoid it. People have told me that from day one but never listened. HOpefully the zpi and dezod guys can post some proof, etc, because the emanage would be so much more cost efficient.

raamaudio

Keith, you just tie it to the ECU, not to the Emanage, it would not be effected then;)

matty, should be fine

mattssi, a "conditioner" could be done in several ways from just a simple manual switch to a circuit with a timmer, filters, all kinds of things can be done Nothing magic about it

A stand alone is totally out of the question for most people, it is really only a viable option for hard core full build up cars, takes one heck of alot of work and knowledge to setup for a daily driver and can be prohibitively expensive. And, a real pain to convert back to stock if you ever have to pass smog which is highly doubtfull it would do if installed.

Stand alone: For race cars and hard core modded street cars that almost always are not daily driven, except as noted here, one car out of how many????

Piggyback, as long as the memory issues are worked around they can be the perfect street driven tuners tool and do well on alot of race driven vehicles as well. Less costly, less trouble to setup, far easier to revert to stock, just the idea of getting a car to cold start well in varying weather conditions can be a bear with a stand alone, let alone many other issues.

Sometimes it is the best interest of some out there to foster rumors of how costly equiment and tuning is the only remedy to our problems;)

Rick

mattssi

Oh, I agree. You can just splice a wire for free and do the same thing. I just wish there was little better solution.



Does anyone have a wideband along w/ their boosted setups yet?

raamaudio

I understand buddy, sometimes we just have to do the thing that works, hoping this one does, instead of having a better method to deal with such things.

I have heard rumors, some directly from those wanting to market thier methods, of cracking Toyco ECUs for quite a few years now, never pans out though

I am considering this myself, been looking at a few ideas, nothing concrete, would be sweet if the EmanU could do this as well

Rick