maybe i am getting a little technical about huh.....

 

Then this would make 99% of dyno charts wrong. It's nearly an industry standard to run one configuration to the next on a dyno, without taking the car off the dyno to be run on the street. This would also make dyno tuning absurd, as the numbers we would be getting from the dyno are incorrect, according to what you are stating. So in your ideal scenario, we would need to run the car in one configuration, make our necessary changes, drive around town, then come and strap the car down for another run, then repeat as necessary? That would be completely ridiculous, and something I highly doubt happens often. From the kid who just has simple bolt ons, to a full race team fine tuning their latest spark plug change, rarely do they take the vehicle off for "ECU learning".

The bottom line is that every intake was subject to the same treatment, and the ECU learned the new parameters the same way, and any variations in the A/F readings were a direct effect of the intake's design, or the fact the A/F reading was taken at the tail pipe, but it was not an ECU learning fluke. Yes, it is true that this dyno was not a load type dyno, but the fact that every dyno run, for each intake was dynoed on the same dyno, makes the results very consistant. Now if the dynos were done on multiple dyno machines, like a Dynapak, or even just another Dynojet, then maybe there would something to be suspicious about. Not happy with the final numbers? Then sure, redyno the intakes, but make sure every intake gets the identical treatment.

Yes, this dyno shows our intake to be running on the lean side, but that is just proof that our intake delivers the maximum amount of air. Our MAF housing diameters are nearly identical to our competitors, so the difference is not there. Products such as intakes are designed as components to a system, not just the answer to all perfomance needs. Just bolting on I/H/E is usually the solution most people take, but many of them don't realize the amount of power and performance they're missing out on by not tuning the ECU with something like an S-AFC, or CAMCON. I leave it at that, so I'm not hijacking this thread...

 

hense my question about the whole learning issue..

the ECU should see any changes big or small in real time.. unless a sensor is malfuctioning... the whole argument about unplugging the ECU and resetting it use to be (not just with SCION's) to clear any error codes that my have been stored.. not to have it run any better..

im wondering where this unplug the ECU to have it run better with the mod got started... my reason for all these questions is to see where and why these things got started.. alot of times because of a fluke.. someone just so happened to unplug the ECU and after pluging it back in the car ran fine.. and attributed the fix the the resetting... then thru word of mouth and people excepting things blindly as truths .. thing become gospel so to speak..

tcengel.. i understand your argument... but having said that.. im still just not convince about the whole learning thing with ECU.. but it is always good to get others peoples point of view.... i will continue to so more research though...

 

unpluging the ecu isn't a mod...you would normally dissconnect the battery before doing any work on ANY car. So the ecu gets 'unplugged' in a sense.

 

Absolutely correct! Anytime you tune a car on a non load dyno, you have to street tune the car after you take it off the dyno. This is an industry standard. This is why Mustand and Dyno Dynamic dynos are the new industry standard!

 

Which is why we run a Dynapak load dyno.

 

You can read in the sticky at the top of this forum about how the ECU learns around mods and piggybacks blah blah blah. You guys are going carzy over this. If I'm wrong, I'd be glad to admit it once I see proof. Yes, I totally appreciate the testing because the numbers are probably 90% correct.

Why is Weapon R making so much less torque at 3500 rpms if the intake has the best A/F line. Why is the Injen making better power when it's A/F ratio is so rich. There has to be some reason.... My guess is that it's the ECU learning and it's pulling or advancing timing.

 

The ECU works on averages and trends in the data not just pure real-time data.

You unplug to clear that memory - hence you are supposed to leave the ECU off for 5-10 minutes to clear and residual data that is stored.

I'll repeat if the ECU reacted only to real-time data your AF would be all over teh place, and your car would splutter and splat down the road.

 

I'm going to buy a Weapon R SRI at some point.

Ray you ahve remained calm and collected, you have given me good reasoning for your data and I think I agree.

Start a thread and explain what you mean by tuning with S-AFC etc. and you might persuade me to buy one of those off you as well.

:D


EDIT: Changed my mind about buying one, I was over at the MMW site checking out the Xmas slae prices and noticed their Dyno. They say it adds 8hp, but looking at the graph, it's pretty much curve for curve with stock all the way up to 5,000k (in fact somewhat less than stock at points).

I don't want to loose anything, just to gain 8hp at a point in the engine curve where you have to be really going for it.

But that's my opinion, others may differ, that's why it's such a great world

 

SAFCs are always good to have when doing minor bolt on upgrades. If you have access to a dyno you can fuel tune for what you have added. And alot of cars come rich from the factory, and you can lean them out a little bit. Though sometimes after some mods, you might need to richen the car up a tad just to stay safe.

For turbo applications, fuel management is a MUST, but i might recomend something that can control ignition timing as well.

 

Keith, ignition tumbler on my car locked up. Can't start the car.
So... will you come meet me at my shop and we'll head over to do the dyno tomorrow?

 

yea thought that was where we were planning on doing anyways.

 

Some other guy here is having a nightmare running the SAFC-II because of the toyco closed loop operation that is from about 0-75% throttle (or so I read on lo-bux racers post, he seems to have much exp[erience dealing with toyota style ecus).

 

That was my point. Same conditions. That's the problem with the internet message boards. You provide factual evidence, and there is always some sort of conspiracy behind the findings. Goes for races as well...."oh, he must not have been able to drive", "he had to have missed a gear"...point is, THEY LOST! Same goes here...point is, these ARE the numbers that THEY came up with.

 

Not to get off this whole A/F stuff and tuning the ECU but how are the Exhaust dyno's going......i am very curious to see what they are putting out even IF it supposedly it is about 90% accurate, we still have numbers to judge and make our own decisions from.....for this i commend GSC and not Critique

 

this is statement i was trying to make. the problem i have is if something has more air it should produce more horsepower+ torque. so the problem doesnt necessarily lie within the CAI especially the weapon R's case..correct???

 

Ran the dyno yesterday, we'll have a post up by Monday night.

 

Yep...

We gained whp when just swapping the intake lost.. tq... Running another dyno monday night to see the numbers after the car has learned the intake.

Talked to the tuner... He said lotus is the same way looses hp & tq then once the ECM learns it bam gains are nice. Just has to fix the a/f.

 

For good results

 

i liked the price for the umnitza when it was $230. What the heck happened to that??? stop changing the price and fix it at $230 please!