oldman, it seems like you know alot about other cars, but when it comes to the tc everything you say is a complete guess.. you really know little to nothing about the tc.

in 90% of your posts you reference other cars (normally some type of honda or ford) that have NOTHING to do with the topic just to try and prove you know more then others in general car knowledge. it's really getting lame.

i can help you with a few links to some honda & ford forums if you'd like, then you can really "show off"

 

i think the reason oldman's posts are so irritating is because of his tone. he uses a nuclear approach -- with some useful data and some peripheral data -- along with an authoritative tone and loads of technical jargon to basically squash anything anyone else may say.

i have an unorthodox UD accessory pulley on my miata. meh, it maybe gave me a couple of hp. in the whole scheme of things, i don't think i'd have paid more than $50 for it (which is what i did on eBay; it was used and incompatible with the supercharger that the guy selling it was gonna install). however, when you're trying to squeeze the absolute last drop of hp out of an engine, then sure... it's a proven way to get a couple more ponies. it's part of the incremental steps to get maximum power.

what i find objectionable about oldman's posts is that he talks like his is The Only True Way. how irritating. maybe getting 200,000+ miles out of a tC isn't a goal for every owner. maybe some of us don't care about what happens to the car in 6 years because we'll have moved on to something else?

taking on a patronizing, maybe even "parental" tone, is rude and disrespectful for this kind of forum. it is one thing to debate the merits of a UD pulley. it's another to try and embarrass and minimize the input of another member. throw around all the dodge 2.2L engine talk that you want, post ford and honda links until you are bluer than an indigo ink tC... if you make your point by squishing someone else, you don't deserve any respect...regardless of your engineerring experience.

will i put an underdrive pulley on my tC? no. in this case, i will agree that the balance toyota's engineers chose (power vs. longevity) is a good one. the tC is my daily driver and as such i'm making different choices for it than i have with my miata. however, i wouldn't say that another person's choice is wrong or bad.

while it is true that car company engineers spend lots of $$ in r&d, it is also true that they do NOT always choose the wisest. many better engineering designs are passed over because they either cost too much or they do not fit within the corporate strategy (in other words, the lawyers or accountants overrode the engineers). so it's not a panacea to say "don't you think toyota would have done this if it was so cheap and easy?"

 

Very well stated Zack. I agree that much of oldmans data is very valuable, and don't doubt his knowledge. I even agree that replacing a stock damper with a lightweight one is detrimental to engine life. The problem is the delivery. It is hard enough to state a point that contradicts others without sounding like you are arguing or trying to prove them wrong. So adding a harsh or attacking tone just angers people and causes them to stop listening, even if you are providing sound advice. We should all take care in how we state things here, as it can easily turn into an argument (it has happened to us all i am sure). Especially since in writing we lose all body language, which makes it easy to take even a well intended post the wrong way. Now... theres my peace speech for the day.... so kiss my....... just kidding guys Take care

 

Here I'll turn your logic around so it um works: If Toyota makes an expensive complicated part, it is NEEDED.

maybe some people are not going 200K in their tC, I think "some" may want to know straight off the warranty is VOID the scond the dealer opens the hood.

 

You guys have confused your terminology. The original question was about underdrive pulleys, not harmonic balancers. Yes, there are pulleys that are also harmonic balancers but that wasn't the question.

And I don't see why an aftermarket pulley couldn't also have a harmonic balancer on it (like the stock one, but modified for the smaller drive diameter) so that it would accomplish underdrive on the belt but still balance the crankshaft.

 

hahah this thread is gettin kinda funny.

no one is being specific towards the TC but rather towards other things.

does anyone have proof of the goods and bads of a UDP on a TC?

is there any info out there that is DIRECTLY RELATED to the UDP on the TC?

blah blah blah. i might not be asking the correct questions but, lets keep this discussion towards the TC's

 

hmnnn.....I think there are people out there who rather feel the slight increase in power with the UDP and cares less about the longevity of the car. So, UDPs are a good thing for them, or for racers. But the info provided by oldman has to be commended for those who will consider longevity. (no pun intended). So, I'm sure there are at least two sides here, and when there are sides, there are fumes, like Rep. vs Democrats. I find both information was helpful.

 

This makes my point exactly, oldman. Instead of listening to what I said, you turn around and attack me with a harsh tone and "loser" smile icon.

Many parts on production vehicles are borrowed from other production vehicles. If the cost of mass-producing one "expensive complicated part" (whatever THAT might be; usually anything "complicated" is comprised of subassemblies) is less than smaller-volume production of two simpler parts, then sure -- the "expensive complicated" part will be used.... even if it's not engineered specifically for each car.

You assume that every piece on our tC is a well-thought-out component just for the tC. It is not. I don't doubt the skills of Toyota's engineers. I'm just pointing out that they used "short-cuts" in the development of the tC wherever they could. This is perfectly fine, and auto makers do it all over the place. But you can't sit there and spout off about how everything is so precicely engineered for a given application when in many cases it is not. There is often a large margin of error built into the design specifically to allow for multiple applications. This is a general statement I'm making, not specifically refuting what you have said about the UDP and its effects on the engine.

As for voiding the warranty, um.... isn't it generally common sense that if you change a part on your car, you have voided at least some part of the warranty? Even most 16yo boys know that. The question is to what extent the warranty is voided. Generally, you only void the warranty in the specific instance where the aftermarket part is directly responsible for the problem.

If I put a UDP on my car and then the moonroof stops working, there is no loss of warranty. If I put an aftermarket intake on my car and the rear hatch locking mechanism stops working, I still have a warranty. They are unrelated items.

If I put a UDP on my car and the crank explodes.... OK, *now* there's a significant relationship between the mod and the failure. Warranty is likely to be voided, but not always. If it can be proven that the crank was faulty to start with (before the mod) then there could still be a warranty. It is not black and white, all warranty or none. It also depends on your relationship with the dealer, your willingness to make a case and appeal to higher levels if needed, and the extent of the damage. My guess is YOU would ____ off the service advisor with a belligerant, know-it-all tone and NOT get even a good will warranty repair.

My Miata is currently blowing the main ignition relay. So, it runs a few days and then won't start. Turns over, but won't start. The dealer has replaced several items (crank angle sensor, main ignition relay, main ignition switch, starter) but the problem persists. The last time it was at the dealer, they said that they believed my alarm and other aftermarket blue-glow accessories were putting too large of a load on the electrical system of the car. I don't agree, since they are not part of the ignition system. However, it didn't matter. They replaced the relay a second time under warranty. I'm now in the process of removing all the accessories so that I can eliminate that issue prior to further diagnostics. (I believe it is a short in the system somewhere in the engine bay.) My point is that providing service under warranty is often subject to a decision by the dealer, so there is "wiggle room" for good customers.

Tone down your attitude and maybe people will respect you. Or maybe you don't care.

 

Racerzack wrote I cut it to the chase on my post. Since you insist. Then let us look at your post:

Racerzack wrote engineering designs are passed over because they either cost too much or they do not fit within the corporate strategy

OK so cost: well the damper cost more and Toyota put it on. So cost is not an issue, the solid mickey mouse pulley is far cheaper to make.

Now corporate strategy: Toyota builds one of the most dependable and long lived cars, hence a damper. Now we come to your conclusion:

Racerzack wrote so it's not a panacea to say "don't you think toyota would have done this if it was so cheap and easy?"

Well logically it is a panacea, if it was a cheap and easy solution that yielded the same or better results Toyota would have done it. They did not, Toyota picked the expensive, complicate, power losing heavy damper. Because it was NEEDED.

So yes I was listening, I just did not have the time nor the inclination to point to your gapping hole in logic. Instead I um wrote a simple terse logical statement in its place.

Oldman wrote If Toyota makes an expensive complicated part, it is NEEDED


Racerzack wrote OK and so? Dunno as the topic is UDP. Talking about off topic content.

Racerzack wrote Like you said it is common sense to assume that the voided part of the warranty would have to do with the engine and more probably with the short block. What is not common sense and is the primary reason I did not specifically say void the short block portion of the warrant is, as the link to the Ford site shows the OEM feels the UDP hurt the entire powertrain: Engine, trans, PS, power generation, cooling. I could think of many scenarios that a component fails say your alternator and the OEM voiding the warranty because of UDPs. So what is it? Common sense I agree, no need to specify, short block for SURE, maybe even the whole powertrain depending on the type of failure. Like did it overheat and warp the head? IMO UDP would void the warranty, even though say it was a Neon with a know head gasket problem.

So lets hear it for common sense, and let common sense say that UDPs effect all aspects of the powertrain and hence can conceivably lead to the voiding of warranties that common sense would not otherwise dictate. Are the few HP worth it? Dunno. Ya think Toyota can afford somebody at my argumentative level or better to show up the day you try to get a consumer advocate to force Toyota to warranty your cylinder head? I think Toyota will show up with pics, prepared white papers and the like, proving conclusively that the UD pulley directly caused the failure along with a long list of precedence already ruled on in their favor. against UDP, while Joe Blow Hotrod shows up with his dad that knows how to tinker on an engine. I’d call that a SLAM dunk.

Racerzack wrote My guess is I’d swap out the part before going to the dealer cause I know I’ll be dealing with a hard head service advisor, while you would try to use your obvious personal charm on a hard SOB that is um just like me and you would be the whining ____er after your warranty is voided while I’ll have a loaner. In fact in your case, the guy would write into the service log, car “showed up with UDP, drivetrain is now void but we did fix Mr ____er’s sunroof”.


Racerzack wrote

Hence I’m on a first name basis with the mayor, who also owns the dealership. What a nice world to be in. thanks.

 

so in other words, you're a pr!ck who has to be rude to make a point.

and thus you ignore the second part of what i said. when one component can be used on multiple platforms, it may very well be over-engineered and/or more complicated than is necessary because the economy of scale makes it cheaper overall. on a per-piece unit, no it's not cheaper. however, auto makers don't price things on a per-piece basis. they look at their entire product line and reuse things wherever they can. instead of making 31,000 parts for the tC alone, toyota can make hundreds of thousands of them and use them on the tC, camry, corolla, etc. since they are now making a component which is used in multiple places with multiple engineering demands, they will overengineer the part to meet the highest-demand application.

so it's not a panacea to say "don't you think toyota would have done this if it was so cheap and easy?"

you're taking an all-or-nothing approach to this, which is just plain ridiculous. adding a UDP will not void the entire warranty on the entire car. your ford link is an exceptional circumstance, not the norm for these kind of problems. you can make all kinds of doomsday theories based on technical concept. the reality is that a UDP on a car which is well maintained and not being raced professionally is very likely to drive just as many miles as a car without the UDP.

there are many, many reasons why automakers don't adopt all of the "mods" that owners choose to put on their cars. cost, longevity, marketability, product placement, and on and on. you are focused on ONE aspect: longevity. that is not the be all, end all of this topic.

you're talking pure conjecture. the circumstances of the failure will determine what is and is not covered, not your sourpussed "slam dunk." toyota could just as easily blame the intake you may put on, or the exhaust, or the phase of the moon. for a single consumer complaint/warranty, toyota is unlikely to do ANY of what you're talking about. the cost of preparing all that material would exceed the cost of the repairs! the only reason for an automaker to put that kind of research into an issue like this would be in the event of a class action lawsuit.

i wouldn't give my business to a dealership that employed people like you. living in southern california, i have gobs of choices of dealerships. oh, and i went through a warranty engine replacement on my miata. the dealer was entirely professional (something you could learn to do) and did everything they could to help get the repair covered by mazda. they provided me a loaner and refused mazda's initial offer of replacing the short block. the dealership insisted on a long block.

how lovely for you. when is the wedding?

 

One word: Downers

 

Racezack wrote Really , I’ve posted I did read it and just did not feel like commenting on a egregious logic error, instead summed up your post in a simple sentence. Now I missed like a whole paragraph in between your logic error lets look at your post again verbatim:

Racezack wrote Dunno RZ, I don’t see it here, You clearly say “better designs” are passed over because the cost too much or that there was some strategy against the design. I completely missed the part about economies of scale providing an over engineered part one that cost significantly more to produce landing on a lesser car. Maybe you can highlight it? Oh and I forgot to mention to you big guy, the tC is the sporty vehicle that will in all probability be beat on to within an inch of its life and many will have a factory supercharger. So the over engineered application would be the Camry automatic driven by grandma to church, not the tC driven by a male Gen Y. Just thought you should know, since you insist on inserting a whole paragraph to fixed a flawed statement. I agree, grandma’s auto will probably outlast grandma’s license to drive even if you yanked out the “over engineered” damper and put in a cheapo mickey mouse pulley. I even bet that grandma won’t even notice the lack of charging at idle or the bling bling lights going dim when the her gospel music kicks in full chat. I’m sure the engine can take the heat load with the slow turning waterpump when she picks up two lady friends for bridge night what does she do like 35 MPH for 2 blocks?

For me I think I’ll use the two extra HP to save my bearings and run a little extra coolant thru the head….as I’m a little harder on my cars then most grandma types.
You just might want to use my phrase it is so much tighter and Occam’s razor would dictate that it is correct. Feel free to add a few more paraghraphs to your post, as it will never make sense.
Oldman wrote If Toyota makes an expensive complicated part, it is NEEDED
Racezack wrote Really? So why does Toyota put a heavy expensive three piece damper on the tC and since your blather above indicates that economies of scale would dictate the part had to have been designed for grandma’s Camry auto, Toyota must have clearly felt it was NEEDED in an auto Camry with a sheltered life. I for one think it is needed on the engine plain and simple. But feel free to expound on how the low stress massive production Camry needed an expensive part and how it found its way onto the high stress but limited production tC. Logic is a scary thing.’’
You have any data to back up your “very likely to drive just as many miles” statement? I think not. I think the damper is needed and coolant flow through the engine is needed to cover every conceivable scenario, and that Toyota spent huge amounts of money into R&D because this is their bread and butter engine and “very likely” just does not cut it when a $4000 engine repair job comes your way for a couple of HP.
Racezack wrote Well more then one: cost, longevity, retention of warranty, factory engineered coolant flow, factory engineered power generation, factory engineered power steering speed vs the UDP ONE aspect: a few HP at WOT.
Racezack wrote Toyota will just void the warranty and / or work out some deal that the customer pays for say ½ the repair and signs a wavier for any further warranty claims. Toyota will only send the big guns, which they do have, when claims are pressed to some sort of arbitration. There is no single bit of new paperwork needed, the regional claims manager has a pre-produced white paper on any subject you can think of from headers to the silly ZMax gunk eating away at the seals. The claims manager will show up with white paper along with all other regional cases and 15 minutes later it is a slam dunk, next case please. Sure complaining customers will have their 15 minutes in front of an advocate and I don’t know if your dad’s expertise based on him tinkering with the family lawnmower is going to win against a Toyota prepared white paper on the subject of UD pulleys.
Racezack wrote So let me get this straight you are the first person I ever heard of blowing a Miata engine, and your are so happy that Mazda lost a ton of money on you. Great so you scammed a company to fixed something that you probable broke under tremendous abuse and conned poor company using their good will into fixing. I’m sure Mazda wants you as a customer. Come now Zack, how did you blow the Miata, did you miss shift playing out your version of F&F were you on the bottle, or did you screw up some performance part? Oh I know, I got it all wrong and you were driving down the street at normal speeds and the crank just flew out of the block, could happen to anyone.

I reasonably sure Toyota would be happy if you were not their customer, I’m sure they have delt with many “professional” SCA uber males.

 

 

Well you guys can say what you want but I have never seen anybody with a problem from a UR Crank pulley. One person had one on an Integra GSR for 70,000 miles and took the motor apart to rebuild it and the crank had no wear whatsoever. Until you can prove to me that it will cause permanent damage I would rather you didn't speak on this topic. I had one on my 2002 Celica GT-S for 10,000 miles and I never experienced a single problem.

 

someone please lock this thread!!!!!

 

I 2nd that.

 

if toyota always uses the best products why do they use crush bent exhaust piping insted of mendrel bent? cost. i'm not here to flame anyone, and i know nothing about UDP, but what i do know is business. not everything toyota uses on the tc is the best it could use, the exhaust system for example, or the tires. what it comes down to is cost.

 

I never said Toyota uses the best part no matter what. I said that if Toyota put an expensive part on an engine where 90% of said engines are on Camry auto driven by grandma then it is a NEEDED part, and is really needed on a beat, raced, supercharged, abused tC.


Um your buds GS-R means LOL, wow a sample size of 1 and the engine was apart at 70K, yeah I think that just proves that automakers world wide just waste billions of $$$$ on dampers cause hey, you know a GS-R that went 70K and the crank did not fail. Did you read the part the vibration causes bearing failure? or accessory drive failure like oil pump. I sure if Toyota knew your bud's car went 70K before being ripped apart, they would just drop all R&D and call your bud up to run the design group cause 70K on from a GS-R is just so great

Not to mention the tC is NOT a GS-R and the tC uses plastic gears to drive counter shafts and we all know how plastic takes to long term vibrations....

Go ahead put UDP on your tC, it is your car. Some people may think there are other smarter ways to get a few HP for cheap.

 

would this be the same magical celica that beats WS6's?

 

lock this damn thread...........i started the damn thing and im tired of it.....LOCK IT!