Mr_Meaty

So you think with the f/ic we should be able to tune to not get CEL without the anti-fouler trick? even with no cats?

garabaldy

No, that is a different issue, his issue is that the O2 sensor feedback was reading a lean condition so the short term fuel trim had to make adjustments (add fuel) to get the AFR back where the ECU wants it to be. The change that the short term fuel trim made is also fed back to the long term fuel trim so that over time the long term fuel trim learns from the short term fuel trim.
If the short term fuel makes an adjustment greater than 10% (not positive on the percentage) then a code is thrown and then the CEL lites up.
Now back to your question.
Question 1
The CAT that is in the header has an O2 before (bank 1 sensor 1) and one after (bank 1 sensor 2). The first O2 is for feedback to the ECU and the second is to see if the CAT is working. Since it appears that his issue is with the bank 1 senor 1 it is the first O2.
Question 2
Removing the first CAT of course is common with us FI TC's and can not be fixed via fuel trims. Removing the second CAT does not throw any codes.
I'm no expert and if anyone has more please pipe up.......

Mr_Meaty

right...I have not cats but I did not have a CEL before my newest tune...turns out my 02 sensor was bad enought to not read properly but not bad enough to throw a code, which is why I could nto tune right but would not throw a code.

I thought that one of the thigs the f/ic 02 table did was intercept the voltage that bank2 sent to bank1 so that it would trick the sensor into thinking the primary cat was working properly.
If that is the case, and the only code you have is the P0420 cat inneficiecny code, you should be able to get rid of that by altering the voltages in the 02 table, right? either that or use anti-foulers...

garabaldy

I have a different understanding of the O2 map (and I could be wrong) . I thought that what you set in that table is what you wanted the AFR's to be during closed loop and then you would have to match that table to the fuel table to accomplish the AFR. if not then CEL comes on.
I know this gets confusing.........

garabaldy

After reading up on P0172 I believe that Mr Meaty is correct that this code can either be the fact that he is missing the first CAT or his fuel trims are off, as stated earlier. There are two ways to trouble shoot. First put in an anti-fouler extension on the second O2 and see if code goes away or get a hold of a scanner that can read fuel trims and see if the short term fuel trim making major adjustments.

Mr_Meaty

it's so nice still having knowledgble people like you on the boards, garabaldy...

Rydrdg

I have antifouler an I believe it is working fine, the reason why my cel came on because my bov was venting to atmosphere which trigger all sensor that monitor the fuels. I recirc the bov back to intake an reset ecu. now 200 miles still no light, I also pass the obd 2 computer test for emission. my car has no cat, thank god to the 3 dollar antifouler mod. thanks for the help from all u guys.

Mr_Meaty

yup...my next mod is antifoulers!

toyota_scion_tc

No piggy backs have control over partial throttle just wot. At partial throttle the OEM ECU will still maintain full control even if you adjust the tune the OEM will still overide this by learning how to adjust. This is where a standalone comes in handy.


P0172 is a Catalytic converter code.

Ace83

iTrader: (6)

^^ the blackbox did make the part tune richer but not perfect using the base tune.. the aem fic has an o2 spoofer that you can tune that alters the feedback of the O2 sensor to the ecu so close loop tune can be altered, that by tricking the ecu.. but yeah the perfect and right way is to go standalone

all4degame

How happy where you with the blackbox Ace? I was planning on just running an emanage blue without the black box. If you think it was absolutely necessary, I'll pick one up from you. =D

Ace83

iTrader: (6)

I was happy with it, it made my untuned map run with richer afrs and idle richer too.. I used to have P0171 lean codes but after the blackbox i stopped getting it but instead P0420 a cat converter code which doesnt bother me.. I didnt have this for too long since I changed my management, hit up java.. he has this one for a while already.. but I think its not a must, as long you have a good tune on the blue w/ the pressure sensor you should be good, and the blackbox has a built in pressure sensor and it tunes through boost pressure (like the emanage w/ PS)

Mr_Meaty

right...e Blue with Pressure Sensor and good tune or E Blue with Black Box...or AEM F/IC

Ace83

iTrader: (6)

yeah or the aem F/IC that belongs to the good batch

garabaldy

That's incorrect, you can tune partial throttle with the FIC via the O2 map in conjunction with the fuel map.

garabaldy

Here's the write up on the AEM site about closed loop tuning........

O2 Feedback with the 05-06 Scion tC

Boosted Scion tC owners who want to enrichen the fueling at partial throttle settings when the factory ECU is in feedback mode can do so with the F/IC. The Factory ECU tries to run the engine at stoich (~14.7:1 Air/Fuel) when it is not at full throttle. However, forced induction tC's can make boost while still at partial throttle and the ECU is still in feedback mode. 14.7 is TOO LEAN to be running when under any appreciable boost and can cause stumbles.

The Scion tC has a uncommon O2 sensor style but the F/IC can still modify your target AFR's. It is assumed that you have the F/IC hooked up per the recommended connection diagram from AEM. It is also assumed that you have an independent AFR device to confirm the proper operation. It doesnt have to stay on the car but it is valuable during setup to confirm proper operation.

Step 1:
Open the Setup dialog box
In the O2 sensor section (top right)
Load Input = MAP (Sets the Y axis of the O2 map to the internal MAP sensor)
Mode = Voltage (says the table will contain raw voltages)
Period = Not applicable for Voltage mode
Bank1 Hi voltage = 4.95
Bank1 Lo voltage = 0.0

Now open the O2 Map by either clicking on the icon with the big "O" in it or select "O2 Map" under the maps menu.

The O2 Map is a 21 RPM (X Axis) by 17 Boost (Y Axis) table. In each cell is the voltage you want for each operating point (The F/IC interpolates between the 4 nearest breakpoints for smooth transitions).

Set up the load axis by clicking on each breakpoint and setting it to whatever you want. You can also drag a bunch of them and it will interpolate between the end points. Do the same with the RPM. These two sets of breakpoints are unique to this table so changing them wont change them in other tables.

Enter the desired closed loop AFR target into the cells of the table using the following values.

AFR Value
17.4 4.0
17.0 3.9
16.6 3.8
16.2 3.7
15.8 3.6
15.5 3.5
15.2 3.4
14.9 3.3
14.7 3.2
14.4 3.1
14.2 3.0
14.0 2.9
13.8 2.8
13.6 2.7
13.5 2.6
13.3 2.5
13.2 2.4
13.1 2.3
13.0 2.2
12.9 2.1
12.8 2.0
12.7 1.9
12.6 1.8
12.5 1.7
12.4 1.5
12.3 1.4
12.2 1.3
12.1 1.2
12.0 1.1
11.9 1.0

So if you want 13:1 AFR in a particular point, put 2.2 in that point in the table. Some minor tweaking may be required but these values will get you VERY close. As long as the factory ECU is in feedback then these values will be used.

IMPORTANT:
If you just change the target AFR, the factory ECU will adjust the trims to achieve the desired AFR. BUT, if you make huge changes then you will get huge trim corrections and the chance of a check engine code for excessive trims. Dont forget to adjust the fuel maps to add the approximate amount you are requesting here. That way the trims will stay near zero!