Scion tC 440cc Injector problem. - Scionlife.com

Notices
Scion tC 1G Forced Induction
Turbo and supercharger applications...

Scion tC 440cc Injector problem.

Reply

 
 
 
Old 09-12-2011, 08:34 PM
  #1  
Junior Member
Thread Starter

 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 10
Default Scion tC 440cc Injector problem.

Hi, I have been running my 2006 tC with the SC with stock pulley. I changed The fuel pump for a Walbro and put a 1:1 regulator and a 12:1 reg, also some Wiseco pistons, and lightweight Crank pulley.
Right now Im at 236WHP and 221 torque. I dont have the TRD reflash yet.

Now the problem is im going to put the 9.5 pulley so i called my Dealer and made an appointment to go tomorrow and to the reflash, I went ahead and bought the denso 440cc injectors from dwinjectors, I installed them on today and now my car turns on perfectly it does idle just like usual but if I go WOT the car starts to stumble and loses power at around 4.5k... If i rev up slowly it revs perfectly all the way to rev limit. Its only on WOT.

Now i was wondering if the problem could be since i put on the 440cc injectors on stock ECU map.. it might be flooding the engine at WOT since its pulsing based on 370cc stock injectors... And tomorrow when i do the TRD reflash the problem might go away? I included a picture of my setup and the denso injectors. Give me our thoughts thanks.

Mark
Attached Thumbnails Scion tC 440cc Injector problem.-scion-sc.jpg   Scion tC 440cc Injector problem.-denso-injectors.jpg  

Last edited by MR_LUV; 10-18-2017 at 12:16 AM. Reason: typo
markitos020 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2011, 11:35 PM
  #2  
Senior Member
5 Year Member
Trader
SL Member
iTrader: (2)
 
syberspyder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 310
Default

Never heard of increasing fuel pressure to make up for smaller injectors(at least not at stock levels). I'm guessing if your AFRs/fuel trims are good without any engine management on stock injectors, your getting too much fuel with the TRD spec'd injectors. I also think you will still be getting too much fuel since people use the reflash/9.5 pulley/stock fuel pump safely(even rich).
syberspyder is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2011, 11:58 PM
  #3  
Junior Member
Thread Starter

 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 10
Default

Once I installed the wiseco pistons, air intake, and full exhaust i was running lean therefor we installed the fuel pump and preassure regulators. Just by doing that the car gained aroun 26 WHP, but still when i run more than 3 consecutive gear car goes lean thats why i wanted to go ahead and do the trd reflash.

The guy at the dealership told me i cant run stock injectors on trd reflash since the car would go really lean. so i went ahead and purchased them and installed them here at home since they would charge me $120 just for installing them on the dealership tomorrow when they did the reflash plus $95 for doing the actual reflash which i found very cheap...

I hope that tomorrow when i get the reflash done The problem will go away, if I run rich then i will lover the fuel reg pressure then since this was done to compensate since it was going lean... A/F around 16. at WOT so that was very bad. Thanks
markitos020 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2011, 02:26 AM
  #4  
Senior Member
5 Year Member
Trader
SL Member
iTrader: (2)
 
syberspyder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 310
Default

You go me wondering how much boost you can run with the 440s and the walbro pump. The pump is a lot cheaper than a new set of injectors, even a used set. I did some searching on this subject and the only negative I could find is that the injectors don't shut off as quick when raising the fuel pressure.
There has to be some cons to running this kind of set up?
syberspyder is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2011, 02:43 AM
  #5  
Junior Member
Thread Starter

 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 10
Default

well right now my fuel pressure is set at 60 psi, when boosted goes up some more. While i was running stock injectors it ran very well but now that i installed the 440 its running very inconsistent. Tomorrow ill be doing the trd reflash, and i hope the problem goes away. I guess the problem is the stock ecu maps cant cope with the 449cc injectors... I might guess that if i keep running it a day or so the ecu will adjust fuel trims and it will work correctly but i haven't ran the car since i installed them just to make sure things don't go wrong...

Tomorrow ill drive it do the dealership which is 30 mins away from here and lets see what happens after the reflash... Also i will be installing the 9.5 psi pulley so there will be some more air going in so it will help the car not get excessively rich.. Worst case scenario I will lower fuel pressure to stock.

I hope that everything works out tomorrow after reflash...

Thanks for the help
markitos020 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2011, 07:08 AM
  #6  
Senior Member
10 Year Member
5 Year Member
SL Member
iTrader: (1)
 
ScionFred's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Baltimore, MD, USA
Posts: 3,387
Default

Originally Posted by markitos020 View Post
well right now my fuel pressure is set at 60 psi, when boosted goes up some more. While i was running stock injectors it ran very well but now that i installed the 440 its running very inconsistent. Tomorrow ill be doing the trd reflash, and i hope the problem goes away. I guess the problem is the stock ecu maps cant cope with the 449cc injectors... I might guess that if i keep running it a day or so the ecu will adjust fuel trims and it will work correctly but i haven't ran the car since i installed them just to make sure things don't go wrong...

Tomorrow ill drive it do the dealership which is 30 mins away from here and lets see what happens after the reflash... Also i will be installing the 9.5 psi pulley so there will be some more air going in so it will help the car not get excessively rich.. Worst case scenario I will lower fuel pressure to stock.

I hope that everything works out tomorrow after reflash...

Thanks for the help
Stock injs are 370cc @~45psi, TRD are 410cc @~45psi and it sounds like you went with 440cc at 60psi base fuel pressure which equates to 520cc @45psi. Yes, the stock ECU fuel maps can't handle 520cc but they can handle ~450cc after a few dozen miles of fuel trim learning. The TRD re-flash adds fuel tables for 410cc injs so your rich fuel condition will be immediately improved.

The reason your car ran well with 370cc injs is that they were flowing 435cc at 60psi. Now you have injs flowing 520cc instead. The TRD re-flash will change that again as well as pulling ign timing. You simply need to adjust your fuel pressure to tune for the new inj's and ign timing. I hope you have a wide band AFR gauge or a good tuner with one. Remember that inj flow ratings are fuel pressure dependent and good luck.

Also, what do you mean by adding a 1:1 and a 12:1 reg.? A 1:1 FPR is all you need.
ScionFred is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2011, 11:57 AM
  #7  
Junior Member
Thread Starter

 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 10
Default

Originally Posted by ScionFred View Post
Stock injs are 370cc @~45psi, TRD are 410cc @~45psi and it sounds like you went with 440cc at 60psi base fuel pressure which equates to 520cc @45psi. Yes, the stock ECU fuel maps can't handle 520cc but they can handle ~450cc after a few dozen miles of fuel trim learning. The TRD re-flash adds fuel tables for 410cc injs so your rich fuel condition will be immediately improved.

The reason your car ran well with 370cc injs is that they were flowing 435cc at 60psi. Now you have injs flowing 520cc instead. The TRD re-flash will change that again as well as pulling ign timing. You simply need to adjust your fuel pressure to tune for the new inj's and ign timing. I hope you have a wide band AFR gauge or a good tuner with one. Remember that inj flow ratings are fuel pressure dependent and good luck.

Also, what do you mean by adding a 1:1 and a 12:1 reg.? A 1:1 FPR is all you need.
Wow thanks for the info! this really helped... So in case I still have problems with the 440 injectors i will simply put on stock injectors and leave the fuel regulator the same.

And about the fuel pressure regulator, a 1:1 regulates the pressure at idle and the 12:1 ups the pressure at boost, since my car when being tuned at the dyno was running lean in boost condition. So that regulator helped eliminate the lean condition in boost.

Is there some formula so that i could calculate the cc based on fuel pressure like you did? I know there is one for calculating impeller speed id like to know if there is one for injectors too that would really help.
markitos020 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2011, 12:02 PM
  #8  
Junior Member
Thread Starter

 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 10
Default

One more thing do you think that Im better off running the stock injectors at 60 psi? with the trd reflash? since they are actually 430cc at 60 psi 20 cc more than stock trd injectors.. Or should i keep the 440cc to be safe since i will be running the 9.5 psi pulley... And simply readjust fuel pressures? Thanks
markitos020 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2011, 05:21 PM
  #9  
Senior Member
10 Year Member
5 Year Member
SL Member
iTrader: (1)
 
ScionFred's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Baltimore, MD, USA
Posts: 3,387
Default

Originally Posted by markitos020 View Post
Wow thanks for the info! this really helped... So in case I still have problems with the 440 injectors i will simply put on stock injectors and leave the fuel regulator the same.

And about the fuel pressure regulator, a 1:1 regulates the pressure at idle and the 12:1 ups the pressure at boost, since my car when being tuned at the dyno was running lean in boost condition. So that regulator helped eliminate the lean condition in boost.

Is there some formula so that i could calculate the cc based on fuel pressure like you did? I know there is one for calculating impeller speed id like to know if there is one for injectors too that would really help.
I'm a bit confused about your FPR setup. Do you have 2 FPRs or just a single 12:1 FPR? Is the rising rate adjustable or fixed? A 1:1 fpr will also raise your fuel pressure from 60 to 70psi at 10psi boost. In theory 12:1 will give you 180psi at 10psi boost (Yikes!). In practice the pressure will be limited by other factors but still too high, IMO.

I would keep the 440's and adjust the fuel presure to tune them. You could start at 45psi base and go from there. The stock inj's are too small for the power you're making, even at 60psi base. You can find all the calculators you need here.

Remember that your current tune will change drastically with 440s and the TRD flash so plan on adjusting your base fuel pressure as well as the rising rate. Good luck.
ScionFred is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2011, 05:29 PM
  #10  
Junior Member
Thread Starter

 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 10
Default

I got bad news today... the trd reflash could not be done via toyotas TIS scanner its only available for 2007 cars id need a trd map module... So i think im going to remove the 440 injectors and let the stock ones like i used too and forget about using the 9.5 pulley.

Or do you think i might be able to use the 9.5 pulley and 440 injectors and tune my Fuel pressure without doing reflash?? Bad idea? I mean iv been running my car for almost a year with this setup its been runing great i just wanted to boost some more..

If i can put the 9.5 psi pulley on stock ecu map il give it a try if not ill have to buy a Greddy e-manage ultimate or a AEM FIC... which one is better or is there another one that works better than these too for under $500 Thanks

Ill be installing stock injectors back until i decide what to do .
markitos020 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2011, 06:48 PM
  #11  
Senior Member
5 Year Member
Trader
SL Member
iTrader: (2)
 
syberspyder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 310
Default

So for tuning on the stock ecu with the SC, you've just been adjusting fuel pressure and regulators correct? Also is that a progressive FPR that raises fuel pressure with boost? Does anyone know if this could be done to use the 410cc injectors with a 12/14psi pulley?

Also, you should contact TRD Sparks, they might be able to reflash for you, you have to send the ECU to them though.
syberspyder is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2011, 10:10 PM
  #12  
Junior Member
Thread Starter

 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 10
Default

Well right now in my setup i have two FPR one of them is progressive it goes up parallel with boost and the other one is a 1:1 which feeds the progressive fuel pressure. This was done so in low rpm the car would not go excessive rich and bog and in high rpm it would not go lean. Its worked great. I'm running stock psi and I'm right now at 236 WHP and 221 torque.

As for 9.5, 12, and 15 psi pulleys i have not tried tuning on them but i guess it would work. Right now i went back to stock injectors since my tunner is out of town but when he gets back i will install the 440cc injectors and put on the 9.5 psi pulley and see how it goes. Simply setting the fuel preassure.

I will try contacting trd sparks and see if they can do the reflash! thanks!
markitos020 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2011, 11:29 PM
  #13  
Senior Member
10 Year Member
5 Year Member
SL Member
iTrader: (1)
 
ScionFred's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Baltimore, MD, USA
Posts: 3,387
Default

Originally Posted by markitos020 View Post
I got bad news today... the trd reflash could not be done via toyotas TIS scanner its only available for 2007 cars id need a trd map module... So i think im going to remove the 440 injectors and let the stock ones like i used too and forget about using the 9.5 pulley.

Or do you think i might be able to use the 9.5 pulley and 440 injectors and tune my Fuel pressure without doing reflash?? Bad idea? I mean iv been running my car for almost a year with this setup its been runing great i just wanted to boost some more..

If i can put the 9.5 psi pulley on stock ecu map il give it a try if not ill have to buy a Greddy e-manage ultimate or a AEM FIC... which one is better or is there another one that works better than these too for under $500 Thanks

Ill be installing stock injectors back until i decide what to do .
Leaving ignition timing out of the equation, I see no reason you couldn't have the same tune you have now with 440cc and the 9.5 pulley simply by reducing your fuel pressure. One of the SC guys probably knows better about any igntion timing alteration required with a 9.5 pulley.

I'm still confused about your dual FPR setup. AFAIK all rising rate FPRs work the same way when referenced to boost only. They all provide a static base pressure (say 60psi) in vacuum and increase pressure in boost. They only differ in the rising rate (1:1 to 12:1). Are you referencing one or both to manifold vacuum and boost?

As for piggybacks like the EMU and FIC, either would afford you a lot more tuning control than the variable FPR method. It is my understanding that the TRD flash pulls a lot of ign timing for safety and you may need to pull some timing for 9.5psi. You could also add an IC or WMI or switch to E85 for detonation control but that's a whole other subject.

It's probably best to talk to your tuner before committing to anything.
ScionFred is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2011, 11:31 PM
  #14  
Senior Member
5 Year Member
Trader
SL Member
iTrader: (2)
 
syberspyder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 310
Default

Originally Posted by markitos020 View Post
I will try contacting trd sparks and see if they can do the reflash! thanks!
After some searching, it looks like the reflash module is a one-time use thing. You'd probably lose HP doing the reflash anyway.

As far as a piggy back, I have done a lot of research on this site, and the most suggested would be the FIC.
syberspyder is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2011, 03:16 AM
  #15  
Junior Member
Thread Starter

 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 10
Default

yeah probably I would, I will go ahead and install the 440 cc injectors and 9.5 psi pulley and retune the fuel pressure... When I first tuned my car we ran the car around 7 miles every time we changed FP so the cars ecu would readjust its fuel trims and then we would recheck the cars AFR's on the dyno.

thats how we got it to 236WHP but I was not possible without the dual FPR. I had to use it since it would lean at boost. Now it wont.
markitos020 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2011, 04:06 AM
  #16  
Junior Member
Thread Starter

 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 10
Default

Here is a better pic of the FPR's The fuel line from the walbro 255 pump comes into the 12:1 FPR then its output goes tho the input of the 1:1 FPR and its output to the fuel rail. When not in boost the 1:1 has a FP of aroung 58-60 psi when in boost the 12:1FPR raises the 1:1FPR base FP and the fuel pressure rises more than the 7 psi it would go up in boost since im also raising its input so fuel pressure goes up to almost 75 psi at max boost. so it 1:1 reg goes up a total of around 15 psi in boost instead of just 7. Also with this setup i was able to run almost stock AFR's in low non boost rmp making the car very economic in gas i get around 22 mps city. Driving from work to home every day a 30 mile drive, i use less thank half a tank in the complete week so thats very good for me.

Soon i will be retuning with the 9.5 pulley and be posting the dyno results, I will have to lower FP so i dont go to rich like it happened yesterday. I wont be doing the trd reflash though.
Attached Thumbnails Scion tC 440cc Injector problem.-img_20110908_175806.jpg  
markitos020 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2011, 08:07 AM
  #17  
Senior Member
10 Year Member
5 Year Member
SL Member
iTrader: (1)
 
ScionFred's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Baltimore, MD, USA
Posts: 3,387
Default

^^ Thanks for explaining your FPR setup. It makes sense to me now. The 1:1 balances out the 12:1 so you don't get a big spike in fuel pressure as boost rises.

FWIW, I'm running a T3/T04E 50 trim at 6psi on the stock ECU maps using 440cc injs and a Split Second Enricher for closed loop AFR enrichment. I made 220whp and 220 wtq on a Dynapack last year under very hot conditions. My cooler weather ET's indicate closer to 250whp from my AT XB. My 440s are close to maxed out but I'm still on the stock fuel system. IMO you should be good for almost 300bhp with your return/RR-FPR setup.

If you run a base of ~45psi with 440's the ECU can still trim them to stoich AFR for cruising but it will be like having 520's in boost(assuming 60psi rail pressure). Good luck.
ScionFred is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2011, 01:26 PM
  #18  
Junior Member
Thread Starter

 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 10
Default

Originally Posted by ScionFred View Post
^^ Thanks for explaining your FPR setup. It makes sense to me now. The 1:1 balances out the 12:1 so you don't get a big spike in fuel pressure as boost rises.

FWIW, I'm running a T3/T04E 50 trim at 6psi on the stock ECU maps using 440cc injs and a Split Second Enricher for closed loop AFR enrichment. I made 220whp and 220 wtq on a Dynapack last year under very hot conditions. My cooler weather ET's indicate closer to 250whp from my AT XB. My 440s are close to maxed out but I'm still on the stock fuel system. IMO you should be good for almost 300bhp with your return/RR-FPR setup.

If you run a base of ~45psi with 440's the ECU can still trim them to stoich AFR for cruising but it will be like having 520's in boost(assuming 60psi rail pressure). Good luck.
Yes, that is why i dont have a 12:1 FRP alone nor have it after the 1:1 i would be a huge spike.

About the 440cc that was exactly my problem! man i kept the 60 psi base and cruising as long as i did not push it to hard the car would drive pretty good, it would bog here and there and sometimes stumble a little but i know it still had not adjusted AFR since i had barley ran it like 3 miles. So now ill reset at a 45 baseline like you told me and tune from there on I hope everything works out well now.

Ill wait for my tuner to get here since he has the good stand alone wide band to monitor AFR for tuning after that i just keep a look out on the card wide band... But don't use that one for tuning. I called my tuner and he told me we might even need to go down a little more maybe even 40 to start with.. After i tue il post results on AFR,s and WHP and WTQ

Thanks
markitos020 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-16-2011, 03:52 AM
  #19  
Senior Member
10 Year Member
5 Year Member
SL Member
iTrader: (1)
 
ScionFred's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Baltimore, MD, USA
Posts: 3,387
Default

FWIW, my AFRs with 440's and stock ECU are 14.7 throughout the vacuum range, 12.4 from 1 psi up in closed loop (thanks to the SSE) and 11.5 in open loop. Oddly, the AFR doesn't get leaner as boost increases to 6psi, although it theroretically should.

I'm confident that you can get an excellent fuel tune with the 9.5 pulley, 440's and your FPR setup. Just tweak that FP. You're very welcome, good luck and I look forward to hearing about your results.
ScionFred is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2018, 10:39 PM
  #20  
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Posts: 1
Default Help

I'm trying to set up my TRD supercharger that I got but everything on my Scion tC 2006 is off stock and I was reading on your story and you have everything stock I was seeing what would it take to run it all stock
Chillman is offline  
Reply With Quote
 
 
 
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
JM Auto Racing
Exclusive Sponsored Sales
14
12-19-2014 07:36 PM
mdhyre
Introduction Forum
1
12-07-2014 01:52 AM
hotroddelux
Scion xA/xB 1st-Gen Drivetrain & Power
2
12-04-2014 12:33 AM
ilikepinktacos
Scion xA/xB 1st-Gen Drivetrain & Power
0
11-30-2014 12:32 AM
foxSCION
Scion xA/xB 1st-Gen Wheel & Tire
13
12-03-2003 06:40 AM


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Quick Reply: Scion tC 440cc Injector problem.


Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.