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Old Nov 5, 2009 | 10:18 PM
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Default Opinions on potential system.

Trying to do an all alpine system, please feel free to make suggestions. but please dont sugggest something merely because it is cheaper. id rather save up to get the best than settle for getting the 2nd or 3rd best. my main goal is SQ but im looking at 4 subs for sound offs as well.

My dad worked for alpine for the longest time, so ive always heard the praises of alpine, so im a little biased lol. so again please feel free to open my eyes to any other brands but not for the sake of their lower price tag. For example: ive heard some good things about dynaudio, diamond audio, and focal, anyone feel id be better off going with one of these then alpine?


model and link is to the right of the dash, quantity is to the left of the dash.
Already have:
1- IVA-W505/P1

Planning to get:

1-SPX-17PRO to replace the front speakers

4-SWX-1243D (only one will be hooked up at all times, the other 3 will only be plugged in for sound-offs and car shows, i dont wish to go deaf lol)

and 1 of the following amp options:
3-PDX-1.1000
or
2-MRP-M2000

Of course ill apply sound deadening material, probably get a capacitor, and probably stick another battery in the trunk. this thread is just to explore options for speakers, subs, amps. ill probably ask you guys ur opinions on the other stuff later.
Old Nov 5, 2009 | 11:50 PM
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ahhhhhh shop around......those products can be gotten much cheaper,and honestly the PDX-1.1000 is gonna power those subs pretty good,and also why 4 subs......it is gonna be very space consuming.......if doen in proper boxes it will be nice looking at shows,which is what i am assuming you are building it for.....especially if not hooking up all the subs.
Old Nov 6, 2009 | 12:27 AM
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woofersetc.com

shop around there. Better companies and bigger bang for the buck.
Old Nov 6, 2009 | 01:33 AM
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Originally Posted by djfreeflow
Trying to do an all alpine system, please feel free to make suggestions. but please dont sugggest something merely because it is cheaper. id rather save up to get the best than settle for getting the 2nd or 3rd best. my main goal is SQ...
If that's truly your goal, especially if you plan on competing in SQ at any sound-off, then don't put your new components in the stock door locations.

Alpine and the other brands you listed all have models that can sound very good, so I'm not going to suggest which set to buy. The thing is, you can spend $1,000 on a great 2-way component set, but without optimal placement they might sound worse than a cheap set of $60 coaxials in a perfect location.

The single most important thing you can do for SQ in the car is to equalize the path lengths of your mid/hi speakers. In this case that means using custom kick panels instead of the doors, such that the speakers are closer to being equally distant from you, and angled so neither is too far off axis.
Old Nov 6, 2009 | 02:16 AM
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Originally Posted by nodsetse
If that's truly your goal, especially if you plan on competing in SQ at any sound-off, then don't put your new components in the stock door locations.

Alpine and the other brands you listed all have models that can sound very good, so I'm not going to suggest which set to buy. The thing is, you can spend $1,000 on a great 2-way component set, but without optimal placement they might sound worse than a cheap set of $60 coaxials in a perfect location.

The single most important thing you can do for SQ in the car is to equalize the path lengths of your mid/hi speakers. In this case that means using custom kick panels instead of the doors, such that the speakers are closer to being equally distant from you, and angled so neither is too far off axis.

I wouldn't try kick panels in a tC, there is alot of work to get them to work. With that head unit you can run components active with time alignment to correct the sound.
Old Nov 6, 2009 | 07:50 PM
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Originally Posted by yeldak
I wouldn't try kick panels in a tC, there is alot of work to get them to work. With that head unit you can run components active with time alignment to correct the sound.
Yes, kick panels are a lot of work, but worth it for those that are serious about SQ.

Running active components and using time alignment via individual channel delay doesn't resolve the issues posed. It does nothing to correct being so far off-axis of the left speaker and so on-axis with the right speaker. While that issue can then be addressed with EQ, it requires independent left & right channel EQ control, and all this plus attempting to optimize the time domain takes a lot of time & effort when tuning. Additionally, using time alignment only optimizes the system output for the driver's seat, while highly degrading the sound for the passenger. Most sound-off organizations judge systems from both seats and the expectation is that the soundstage & imaging will be close to the same in either location, which isn't possible when it's been optimized for only the driver's position.

Given all the trade-offs with time-alignment used due to poor speaker locations, and being that it doesn't fix anything other than correcting arrival times for one listening position, the difficulty in implementing kick panels is definitely worthwhile, as doing so resolves more issues and results in a better stereo presentation for both seats.
Old Nov 6, 2009 | 09:31 PM
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Originally Posted by nodsetse
Yes, kick panels are a lot of work, but worth it for those that are serious about SQ.

Running active components and using time alignment via individual channel delay doesn't resolve the issues posed. It does nothing to correct being so far off-axis of the left speaker and so on-axis with the right speaker. While that issue can then be addressed with EQ, it requires independent left & right channel EQ control, and all this plus attempting to optimize the time domain takes a lot of time & effort when tuning. Additionally, using time alignment only optimizes the system output for the driver's seat, while highly degrading the sound for the passenger. Most sound-off organizations judge systems from both seats and the expectation is that the soundstage & imaging will be close to the same in either location, which isn't possible when it's been optimized for only the driver's position.

Given all the trade-offs with time-alignment used due to poor speaker locations, and being that it doesn't fix anything other than correcting arrival times for one listening position, the difficulty in implementing kick panels is definitely worthwhile, as doing so resolves more issues and results in a better stereo presentation for both seats.
Agreed.... OP, if you are interested, I know of someone selling some kick panels on another forum.... They are only for mids though as the guy was running horns

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/...ickpanels.html
Old Nov 9, 2009 | 12:39 AM
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thanks everyone for the input!

but to those who are saying the prices are bad, i agree but the thing is my dad still has friends at alpine, so id be getting some of the stuff for free, and the others at next to nothing. ie: i got the navigation drive for my headunit for free. so the price really isnt an issue in this case.

but if there are other brands that you feel offer better sq, please let me know.

nodsetse, im def. going to look into kick panels,

thanks again guys.
Old Nov 10, 2009 | 12:16 AM
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i think you made a good choice, i did this in my 09 tc rs5.0a

IVAD 203/P1
Type x Pro 6.5's in front
Type x Reference 6.5's in back
(4)Type r 10's sealed
MRP F600 on the components (big amp for headroom on gain)
MRP M2000 on all the subs
Old Nov 10, 2009 | 06:46 AM
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NICE!

in that case ive got two questions for you:
1) with so many people saying not to bother with upgrading the rear speakers, would you say it was worth it to upgrade them? Would you recommend i do the same?

2) why use references instead of pros on your rear speakers?
Old Nov 10, 2009 | 09:18 AM
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nice man, its gonna be an interesting project.. You doing it yourself?
Old Nov 10, 2009 | 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by djfreeflow
NICE!

in that case ive got two questions for you:
1) with so many people saying not to bother with upgrading the rear speakers, would you say it was worth it to upgrade them? Would you recommend i do the same?

2) why use references instead of pros on your rear speakers?


1.) I work a a true custom shop/pro shop and generally we never really upgrade rears unless the ar blown. mostly for staging, ive allways been a person that wanted all he could get up front and never gave a damn about the back, mainly cause i wasnt back there and was like oh well if your in the back sucks to be you anyways lol

and with this car i went a total different route being its my first car, all my others have been SUV's and i made them street bass and spl trucks with multiple 15'' woofers.

now the 4) 10" type r's are surprsingly very loud 147db ish on the 2000d amp with a very accurately tuned box and with the bass so loud and the front so clean i wanted to carry that effect to the rear and again im not back there but i was going SQ so i went type x reference mainly cause they are still badass but they are just back fill music to take up the dead spots the factory rears left.

i suggest at least doin type s or r coaxs in the back for an all around better speaker then stock and if you really wanna bump up to the reference, let me tell you its a choice im not regretting lol im glad i did it, type x just has a sound and clarity that "s" and "r" components dont have. now as for type x subs, they suck, my alpine rep hates them he said they really only sell from best buy or crutchfield, no pro shops really sell them they mechaniclly are better then the type r sub but sound horrible ported or sealed

if you have any more ?'s shoot me a pm and i can help you out, they only pain about the type x is tuning the jumpers in the crossovers and playing around with your tweeters to find a spot to mount them cause they are overly large but i love them
Old Nov 10, 2009 | 10:58 PM
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Originally Posted by djfreeflow
1) with so many people saying not to bother with upgrading the rear speakers, would you say it was worth it to upgrade them? Would you recommend i do the same?
Such a common question, with no simple answer, because it depends on what a person wants from their own system.

I located a couple posts I've made here about rear speakers in the car, and hope you'll take the time to read them, and at least consider the info.

The first one pertains primarily to the importance of psychoacoustics;
Remember that it's stereo, not surround. When listening to a home stereo, you probably noticed that it sounds best when the speakers are of equal distance from you, that you start to lose the stereo effect when you get closer to one speaker and further from the other. This is already a problem in the car with speakers in the front door panels (close to one but far off axis, far from the other yet much more on axis), but did you ever notice how close the left rear speaker is to the driver's ear? The way I sit, that speaker is even closer to my ear than the door speaker. This is important because humans are very good about determining the origin of a sound source, based on arrival times. What this means is that the sound from the rear speaker may reach your ear before the front speaker, which leads the mind to think the source of sound is behind you. While some people suggest just using the fader and balance to adjust it, that doesn't work because you can't trade time for amplitude. So, if you must have rear speakers and won't be playing them loud compared to the front, then it doesn't make much sense to spend the time, effort & cost to upgrade them.
The second one is about how to implement "rear-fill" correctly;
Let's start with what "rear-fill" is really intended to do. When you're at a live performance, even though the performance is in front of you, some reflections of the sound come from behind you and lend an ambiance effect, such that you get a sense of the environment, the space the performance happens in. There's no direct sound behind you, only reflections from the direct output that originated from in front of you.

In a car with only front speakers, the direct sound from them reaches the rear of the vehicle, and is then reflected back to the front, like it does in a concert hall, enough that there's often no need to implement rear-fill speakers.

If a person wants their system to mimic a larger space, such as a large concert hall in a big vehicle, then a rear-fill solution might be warranted. The thing is, you can't just put speakers behind you and get the correct effect, because that doesn't do a decent job of reproducing the desired environment. In the concert hall, the sounds reflected off the rear wall are delayed relative to the direct/original output, they're bandwidth limited, and attenuated.

So, the correct way to implement rear-fill is with midrange/midbass speakers only, limiting their output to 3kHz at 6-12dB/Oct., such that their frequency response rolls off at the high-end, just like at a live venue. They should also be at least 6dB (9dB is often better) less SPL than the front speakers, to mimic the attenuation caused by distance. Since the car is much smaller than a concert hall, the output of the rear-fill speakers needs to be delayed relative to the front, at the rate of approx. 1ms per foot of distance desired. Also, rear-fill doesn't have to be stereo, mono will work just as well, if not better.

I've yet to see anyone here implement rear-fill this way (mids only, 2nd order 3kHz low-pass filter, ~10ms delay, -9dB SPL relative to front), but there have been many winning SQ competition vehicles over the years that had such implementations. It's a lot of time, money & effort to get right, so it's no wonder that most don't bother.
Since you're considering competing with the system, you need to look into the rules for the specific organizations you'll be involved with, as each of them may judge rear speaker aspects of a system differently.

Some may actually deduct points for not having rear speakers, or not award additional points if they're left out, so some competitors have rear speakers, but they're not connected. All the organizations will deduct points if the output from rear speakers detracts from the front staging of the system, so it needs to be done correctly or not at all.

Hope this helps!
Old Nov 11, 2009 | 06:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Ace83
nice man, its gonna be an interesting project.. You doing it yourself?
thanks man!

to be honest, no i have no intention of installing it by myself lol. when it comes to stuff like this id much rather get it done by people who know what they're doing, plus if something goes wrong with it down the road i can just take it back with my receipt and have them fix the problem. that gives me some peace of mind.
Old Nov 11, 2009 | 07:09 AM
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jesus nodsetse you sound like a flipping physicist! lol great info man.
real eye-opening stuff for me.

another quick question for everyone: is bose truly as overrated as some say? or is that just jealous banter being spread on car audio forums?

because ive dj'd events with some of their speaker sets, and i definitely feel they blow the other brands away, but can that be said about their car audio equipment too?
Old Nov 11, 2009 | 03:11 PM
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i think bose have some awesome home theater system.. when it comes to cars though i havent heard much, maybe with the price people settle for something else. I've only heard of it on my friend's TT oem system and i think it pretty good quality
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