Push Button Start w/ RFID
09-02-2007, 01:29 AM
#1
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Push Button Start w/ RFID
I've been looking at these RFID alarm kits, where when you are in range of the receiver, the doors unlock and the alarm disarms. - opposite happens when you leave the range.
How could I integrate this with my starter so that when i'm in range, i can simply push an "Engine Start" button? I don't want to have to use my keys.
Any suggestions would be great
Thanks,
Brett
How could I integrate this with my starter so that when i'm in range, i can simply push an "Engine Start" button? I don't want to have to use my keys.
Any suggestions would be great
Thanks,
Brett
09-02-2007, 01:59 AM
#3
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OhioScions
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Not to be mean..but sounds very lazy.
As for the technical details...
Hmm....well, you would have to bypass your igntion protection and also leave a key in the car. I'm thinking you would have to do pretty much put a remote start system..but I dont know how you would work the all the systems together.
Good luck with it!
As for the technical details...
Hmm....well, you would have to bypass your igntion protection and also leave a key in the car. I'm thinking you would have to do pretty much put a remote start system..but I dont know how you would work the all the systems together.
Good luck with it!
09-02-2007, 01:59 AM
#4
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Sure:
http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-K9-SOMBRA-AU...QQcmdZViewItem
That's one i've been looking at, a cheapy, but i was thinking about just giving it a try. Not too much of a loss.
http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-K9-SOMBRA-AU...QQcmdZViewItem
That's one i've been looking at, a cheapy, but i was thinking about just giving it a try. Not too much of a loss.
09-02-2007, 04:18 AM
#6
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Originally Posted by crabbyman
Not to be mean..but sounds very lazy.
As for the technical details...
Hmm....well, you would have to bypass your igntion protection and also leave a key in the car. I'm thinking you would have to do pretty much put a remote start system..but I dont know how you would work the all the systems together.
Good luck with it!
As for the technical details...
Hmm....well, you would have to bypass your igntion protection and also leave a key in the car. I'm thinking you would have to do pretty much put a remote start system..but I dont know how you would work the all the systems together.
Good luck with it!
my mom's Infiniti G35 has a key fob that she keeps in her pocket. she can lock and unlock the doors without pushing a button. she can also just get in the car and push the engine start button and it starts. it's just a luxury feature. i believe there are several models of cars that are incorporating this now. i think it's totally cool. if you guys figure it out let us know. i would be interested in seeing how you got it to work
09-02-2007, 05:41 AM
#7
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Here's what you'd have to do in general. I'll follow up with my concerns at the end...
1) increase the range of the rfid antenna. whatever means you choose must report to the BCM.
2) upon detection of rfid chip, doors should pulse unlock. Absence of signal, lock.
3) upon detection ignition and accessory wire(s) would need to receive juice.
4)defeat column lock
5)momentary button to hit the starter wire, no biggie
Here's my hangups:
1) the rfid antenna would need to be powered at all times, not a huge drain but still a concern.
2) if ignition and accessory is dependent on a signal from your chipped key, what is your failsafe if youre driving along and suddenly signal is lost? a total power kill is a good recipe for a wreck. You could get around this by switching control to the drivers door pin once started. The rough idea (shooting from the hip) would be to tag the tach wire, and when signal is present (after a 10 second delay using a 555 timer) the rfid sense wire no longer controls ignition/acc and passes it over to the driver's door pin. upon open, the car dies.
To be honest, to do this would be relay hell. I've done tons of alarms and remote starts but i have not worked with the particular piece you've shown above. Having done quite a few of transponder bypasses, i can say i wouldnt trust my life on one if it directly controlled my ignition and accessory.
If i think of any other kinks or fixes, I'll let you know.
1) increase the range of the rfid antenna. whatever means you choose must report to the BCM.
2) upon detection of rfid chip, doors should pulse unlock. Absence of signal, lock.
3) upon detection ignition and accessory wire(s) would need to receive juice.
4)defeat column lock
5)momentary button to hit the starter wire, no biggie
Here's my hangups:
1) the rfid antenna would need to be powered at all times, not a huge drain but still a concern.
2) if ignition and accessory is dependent on a signal from your chipped key, what is your failsafe if youre driving along and suddenly signal is lost? a total power kill is a good recipe for a wreck. You could get around this by switching control to the drivers door pin once started. The rough idea (shooting from the hip) would be to tag the tach wire, and when signal is present (after a 10 second delay using a 555 timer) the rfid sense wire no longer controls ignition/acc and passes it over to the driver's door pin. upon open, the car dies.
To be honest, to do this would be relay hell. I've done tons of alarms and remote starts but i have not worked with the particular piece you've shown above. Having done quite a few of transponder bypasses, i can say i wouldnt trust my life on one if it directly controlled my ignition and accessory.
If i think of any other kinks or fixes, I'll let you know.
09-02-2007, 05:56 AM
#8
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Can you think of any other ways to go about starting the car with a push button, besides using the rfid detection controlling the acc power? Maybe a switch for the acc / ignition power that works when the rfid is detected.......but somehow doesn't cut if rfid loses signal.
Thanks again,
Brett
Thanks again,
Brett
09-02-2007, 03:20 PM
#9
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Well, the easy way would be to tape your spare key under the dash and bypass the ignition switch. But by doing that you just removed the entire ign switch and immobilizer protection, making the car easy to steal.
I have done a lot of RFID system design to automate shipping functions at some of our companies locations. So the base things to consider are:
Read range
If you use a short enough range, you can use passive cards, meaning no battery to die on you, they last forever since they are not powered. Not all rfid requires a powered antenna, that is actually the appeal of the technology. However, you will need to be closer to the reciever. In this case, you could mount the reader behind the cubby hole (using one that you typically see on a door access system) and just throw the card in the cubby when you get into the car. This wont work for unlocking the car from a distance, but will work for what you are wanting.
Card Frequency
You need to ensure the reader you purchase will read the type of card you use.
Size
Obviously
Mazda already has exactly what you are talking about on their cars. I could never get used to carrying their monster sized active card in my pocket. I actually find it ridiculous.
If you have an alarm that already unlocks the doors when you get near it like you mentioned, then it wouldnt be terribly hard. You need to take an output of the alarm (like the door lock, or an extra output if it has one) and wire it to a relay to bypass the ignition switch. The push button would take care of the actual start command. You would then tape your spare stock key behind the dash near the ign switch so the immobilizer will not engage. After that, you just need to tear the switch out and get rid of the lock mechanism.
Now, if the alarm is a good one, you still have he immobilizer function with the rfid card, so the only security you removed is the locking steering wheel, which isnt much really. Not sure I would go to the trouble to do it... but it shouldnt be terrible to do really if you have an rfid alarm anyway.
I have done a lot of RFID system design to automate shipping functions at some of our companies locations. So the base things to consider are:
Read range
If you use a short enough range, you can use passive cards, meaning no battery to die on you, they last forever since they are not powered. Not all rfid requires a powered antenna, that is actually the appeal of the technology. However, you will need to be closer to the reciever. In this case, you could mount the reader behind the cubby hole (using one that you typically see on a door access system) and just throw the card in the cubby when you get into the car. This wont work for unlocking the car from a distance, but will work for what you are wanting.
Card Frequency
You need to ensure the reader you purchase will read the type of card you use.
Size
Obviously
Mazda already has exactly what you are talking about on their cars. I could never get used to carrying their monster sized active card in my pocket. I actually find it ridiculous.
If you have an alarm that already unlocks the doors when you get near it like you mentioned, then it wouldnt be terribly hard. You need to take an output of the alarm (like the door lock, or an extra output if it has one) and wire it to a relay to bypass the ignition switch. The push button would take care of the actual start command. You would then tape your spare stock key behind the dash near the ign switch so the immobilizer will not engage. After that, you just need to tear the switch out and get rid of the lock mechanism.
Now, if the alarm is a good one, you still have he immobilizer function with the rfid card, so the only security you removed is the locking steering wheel, which isnt much really. Not sure I would go to the trouble to do it... but it shouldnt be terrible to do really if you have an rfid alarm anyway.
09-02-2007, 08:23 PM
#11
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For the start function, you just need to find the wires behind the dash and connect them to momentary pushbutton switch
For the IGN constant power, you can wire a latch circuit to the momentary start button. That should take care of that part. Not sure if you want to give up ACC power or not, but you will have to figure out a switch for that if you truly want to go keyless. Whatever it is, I would use a momentary controlled latch like above that is disabled by the lock function to ensure you dont leave power on and walk away.
To kill the ignition, you will have to decide what you want. The easiest would be to wire a second pushbutton somewhere that kills the latch relay circuit.
For the lock mechanism, it takes removing the switch and disabling the steering lock mechanism.
For the immobilizer, most people just secure their spare key behind the dash close enough to the switch to make it run.
I have done of of this on the tC, so you will have to get a schematic and/or start tracing out wires and power to figure out which ones to deal with. But the above steps would create a truly keyless system if you have a good rfid alarm system and the outputs to control it.
For the IGN constant power, you can wire a latch circuit to the momentary start button. That should take care of that part. Not sure if you want to give up ACC power or not, but you will have to figure out a switch for that if you truly want to go keyless. Whatever it is, I would use a momentary controlled latch like above that is disabled by the lock function to ensure you dont leave power on and walk away.
To kill the ignition, you will have to decide what you want. The easiest would be to wire a second pushbutton somewhere that kills the latch relay circuit.
For the lock mechanism, it takes removing the switch and disabling the steering lock mechanism.
For the immobilizer, most people just secure their spare key behind the dash close enough to the switch to make it run.
I have done of of this on the tC, so you will have to get a schematic and/or start tracing out wires and power to figure out which ones to deal with. But the above steps would create a truly keyless system if you have a good rfid alarm system and the outputs to control it.
09-02-2007, 09:03 PM
#12
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I had been meaning to post this up for a while
https://www.scionlife.com/forums/vie...174&highlight=
Since I mention a latch circuit, figured it may help if you go forward with this.
https://www.scionlife.com/forums/vie...174&highlight=
Since I mention a latch circuit, figured it may help if you go forward with this.
09-02-2007, 09:49 PM
#13
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EDIT:
Actually, it does! I see it on the features list on the auction. I think i'll get it!
Original:
Do you think the ebay alarm listed above would be sufficient for this project? If not, any others you have in mind?
Brett
Actually, it does! I see it on the features list on the auction. I think i'll get it!
Original:
Do you think the ebay alarm listed above would be sufficient for this project? If not, any others you have in mind?
Brett
09-03-2007, 01:57 AM
#14
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I agree this is cool...
..but my problem is the problem of theft. All a thrifty thief needs to do is see you NOT use a key to tell you are using RFID. It is easy enough for them to be close enough to get the radio signal as you pass by or unlock your car.
After that...they are off! They would have your key in the car to drive off. They would have also already picked off your RFID code and duplicated it for their own use.
Of course I could be completely wrong if the RFID code is constantly changing.
..but my problem is the problem of theft. All a thrifty thief needs to do is see you NOT use a key to tell you are using RFID. It is easy enough for them to be close enough to get the radio signal as you pass by or unlock your car.
After that...they are off! They would have your key in the car to drive off. They would have also already picked off your RFID code and duplicated it for their own use.
Of course I could be completely wrong if the RFID code is constantly changing.
09-03-2007, 04:33 AM
#17
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The thief would have to be as close to you as the car is, with something out to read the code. So the chances of that are unlikely since I am betting the alarm is set up with a fairly short read range (if it is any good.. it only needs to read within about 3 feet or less).
But, I am leary of an ebay item I plan to use to secure my car. I would check heavilly into the brand and see what people say about it. I can suggest ways to make it work, but cant say that the alarm you are buying is secure.
But, I am leary of an ebay item I plan to use to secure my car. I would check heavilly into the brand and see what people say about it. I can suggest ways to make it work, but cant say that the alarm you are buying is secure.
09-03-2007, 06:07 AM
#19
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Originally Posted by engifineer
For the start function, you just need to find the wires behind the dash and connect them to momentary pushbutton switch
For the IGN constant power, you can wire a latch circuit to the momentary start button. That should take care of that part. Not sure if you want to give up ACC power or not, but you will have to figure out a switch for that if you truly want to go keyless. Whatever it is, I would use a momentary controlled latch like above that is disabled by the lock function to ensure you dont leave power on and walk away.
To kill the ignition, you will have to decide what you want. The easiest would be to wire a second pushbutton somewhere that kills the latch relay circuit.
For the lock mechanism, it takes removing the switch and disabling the steering lock mechanism.
For the immobilizer, most people just secure their spare key behind the dash close enough to the switch to make it run.
I have done of of this on the tC, so you will have to get a schematic and/or start tracing out wires and power to figure out which ones to deal with. But the above steps would create a truly keyless system if you have a good rfid alarm system and the outputs to control it.
For the IGN constant power, you can wire a latch circuit to the momentary start button. That should take care of that part. Not sure if you want to give up ACC power or not, but you will have to figure out a switch for that if you truly want to go keyless. Whatever it is, I would use a momentary controlled latch like above that is disabled by the lock function to ensure you dont leave power on and walk away.
To kill the ignition, you will have to decide what you want. The easiest would be to wire a second pushbutton somewhere that kills the latch relay circuit.
For the lock mechanism, it takes removing the switch and disabling the steering lock mechanism.
For the immobilizer, most people just secure their spare key behind the dash close enough to the switch to make it run.
I have done of of this on the tC, so you will have to get a schematic and/or start tracing out wires and power to figure out which ones to deal with. But the above steps would create a truly keyless system if you have a good rfid alarm system and the outputs to control it.
#2 In my schematics, the tc has two "ignition" wires going to the switch. Can I put both of them on a simple toggle switch with a relay to use that for my "kill" switch to turn the car off? Also, the ignition switch has a "transponder amplifier" on it. Im assuming that is for the immobilizer? Is it absolutely necessary? or if my key is in my pocket, will I still be able to start my car?
09-03-2007, 06:54 AM
#20