Slight threadjack.

engifineer, you say that no lower than 1.4"? Is that for autocrossing purposes? I was looking at the 2.4" drop from the S-Techs, but I wasn't sure if that would be too steep.

 

yes that's for autocrossing purpose. for show thought its still looks jacked up even at 1.4" lower.

 

Alright then, say the OP was looking for a shock/strut set to go with his new Progress Tech Rear Swaybar that he just bought because it's great quality and is a top notch rear swaybar...

Koni shocks vs. TRD? I would say Koni, but I haven't heard enough about their particular Scion shocks to know if they're made correctly.

H&R Sport springs vs. TRD? Is there any difference in the spring rates to warrant the price difference?

 

generally its, the higher the spring rate, the stiffer the ride will be.

Koni's need modification to them to mount properly, something to cut. I'd go with Tokico's over Koni.

i'd go with the H&R springs as well.

 

Well, I meant is there enough rate difference to warrant the price difference... but after looking online, I've found that the H&R's have about a 10lb/in advantage, sit about 0.1" lower, and are about $75 more than the TRD's. Worth it?

Cutting is definitely a turn off, and it's what I was talking about when I asked if they were made for Scion's right. What are the differences between the Tokico shocks and the TRD shocks?

OP, pay attention, it's a learning adventure for both of us! :D

 

TRD shocks are best with TRD springs, if you go lower, Tokicos will suit you better, imho.

as for the springs, i'd still take the H&Rs over TRD as a personal preferance and i know from owning several H&R products that they make quality stuff.

 

So if I take your advice and go H&R.. which is lower than TRD.. you would say go with the Tokico's? Otherwise go with a TRD/TRD setup?

 

that is my personal choice yeah, i'm sure others would agree though. Tokico's are more geared for drops greater than what TRD springs give.

 

Anything lower than 1.4" will handle worse than it will at 1.4".. and people have found that low drops like 2 inches handle worse than stock when you push the car.

Some magazine looked at this, but so did Rick (raamaudio) a long while back. The suspension geometry is best at about a 1.4inches of drop, which in no way looks "jacked up". My drop is easilly noticeable and looks nice (and people who dont even have tC's have asked what drop it is ) on the trds which is less than a 1.4" drop.

So it is not just for autocross, it is for handling in general. A 2" drop is 100% show and will not handle nearly as well as the proper drop. Actually, for autocross, I would want the same 1.4" or so of drop, but with much higher spring rates. If TRDs had double the srping rates they do I would be happy.

First off, the optimum drop for a car is chosen off of its suspension geometry, and where the car should sit to optimize it. Part of this is roll couple (the item that creates body roll). Especially on a macpherson strut car, due to geometry, going lower than the optimal amount makes the roll couple begin to get larger, not smaller.

Rick actually raised his car off the lower drop he had to make it handle better (he track races more than autox), and if you look at all the good track tC's out there, they are not slammed. Most people that lower cars these days lower them way too far. If you ever push the car hard, even on the street, it will handle worse the stock many times.

H&R sports are very close to the optimal drop.. but I dont think anyone has the spring rate info on them, so it is hard to tell. What sucks is that so many companies try to build lower springs that ride smooth... which is just idiotic. They will make the car handle worse, not better. For example, S-Techs are much lower than the TRDs.. the trds have rates of 168F/324R (even with that, I wish they had higher rates to handle better). The S-techs have rates of 202F/324R... Those should be much higher than that, and you will most likely be on the bump stops in every hard corner, which makes for a poorly handling car.

 

In my eternal quest to be as frugal as possible (I love STS class for specifically this reason), how detrimental would it be performance wise and reliability wise (keeping in mind I autox about twice a month) if I left the stock shocks on and slapped on the H&R springs?

I saw an arbitrary figure somewhere that said that H&R Sport spring rates are 25-35% higher than stock. Whether that's true or not, 1.4" being a magical number for our cars is enough for me.

 

Spring rates are very important, which is why I wish we knew them for those springs We have a chart of all the spring info over on yoursciontc.com, but are missing the rates for a few, including the H&R's. So if anyone has a reliable source of that info, let me know! Those percentages, if correct, would make them about the same as TRDs.. .which is a bit of a low rate for that drop. But probably still a better setup than a lot of other springs out there.

Without knowing the rates, it is hard to tell. I would think, just off the drop, that the stock struts will last a good while, but I am not sure. With TRD springs (Which actually come to about 1.2-1.3 inches of drop) you are fine. I have had mine on for about 35,000 miles with stock struts. H&R may take a harder toll on them though.

Ok.. I will stop threadjacking as well now..

Swaybars are good :D

 

I'm running TRD springs and a 27mm Hotchkis rear sway on the stiffest setting, and I oversteer like there is no tomorrow.

 

Normally I wouldn't argue with that, but Dan has driven my tC on a few occasions with the TRD and H&R bars installed; as vocal as he is about my setup, oversteer hasn't been one of his complaints.

I get what your saying enginfineer, but going from 22mm to 24mm is a subtle change when it comes to oversteer on the tC, and obviously not quite enough for a professional racer to take notice.

 

How thick is the Hotchkis rear sway?

I think it's in the 30's mm? That's a huge jump from stock which I think is 20mm or under. Going that much larger, even on the softest setting, will be unsafe in these wide sweepers. The H&R comes as a single bar set so they've been engineered to be used alone. Much more than that and it'll start taking more and more effort to control the car.

 

We are arguing essentially the same point.

Any change in thickness will affect over steer however un-noticeable it may be. And you are not running significantly stiffer than TRD, which is why the rear only is fine. Had you been running a Hotchkis rear and stock front on the track.. things would be more noticeable And most likely not in a good way.

 

quick q, if one would have front and rear struts, front and rear rear sways, c-pillar bar, and dropped on s-techs..would that make a dramtic differnce on handling or just be of no use?

 

My car is a living example of this. As long as my front wheels grip around a corner, I'll either oversteer or tri-pod, which results in oversteer. I don't care though, since I don't track it.

 

I bet thats fun :D

I tripod on a lot of corners autoxing with just the trd springs and trd rear sway.. I can only imagine it running the hotchkis rear sway!

 

I've done it twice so far, without even trying. Once was right in front of my friend, I took a turn pretty hard and the back end kicked out, then my friend told me the back wheel came up about 2-3". Then I did it again today a little. I need to stop beating my tires up . They're gonna hate me in a month after the turbo goes on .

Also, do you know what the spring rate is on the front springs? I'm trying to figure out of the front end is going to drop at all after the turbo, piping, IC, etc..go in there. I want it to drop like .2" more, but doubt that stuff is enough weight.

 

Oh, how I'd like to be tri-podding come July. Maybe if my tC does enough leg lifts, it'll start losing weight.

As far as the H&R spring rates, I don't have anything fancy-schmansy to get this, but I can figure out basic numbers with some rudimentary maths (and something flat and heavy) once they hit my doorstep.

Wait, what? Oh yeah! Woohoo swaybars!