Twiddler, you are my hero!!

Step by step, with photos and clear explinations as to why
you are doing each step!

I couldn't ask for more!

I'm very excited to see your results, and get an idea of how
much you spent on all this, I would totally do the same thing
for myself, even for just 15HP!

Keep us informed!!!!

 

I am very curious to see the base dyno. i have very similair mods to Twiddler. i have an 05 xb with weapon-r intake, strup header ,and a magnaflow exhaust. I am going to go and take a guess that he will base at 110hp and around 110 tq as well. thats for the injen, dc header and magnaflow. good luck onthe rest of the project.

 

lol if only. i'd say 100whp or 105whp.

 

Yeah, those inflated numbers for exhaust, headers, and
intake...Stock shows up between 93-96 depending on the
dyno and altitude and temps that day, so I'd say 100HP-103HP.

I'd be happy to take the box up to 125HP NA style.

 

I was guessing with my nubmers by looking at this article that i seen before.

http://www.magnaflow.com/05news/magazine/importr.asp

102hp and 104 tq

 

Grab an ale...I've got lots of stories and pics from dyno day. I have a little good news and I have a little bad news. First two notes I wanted to clear up from my post above...I thought I was booked for Thursday but got my days confused and that's why I didn't post last night...I tested from 9am until 12pm this morning. I also stated above that I'd lost a couple engines on the dyno in the past and wanted to point out that they weren't scion engines. haha. One was a Ford 389 stroker and the other a 408 (one was over 600hp btw on pump gas.) I am happy to report that the Scion did not blow-up today.

And now for the stories...

Westech dyno is in southern california and many of the magazines do testing and shoots here. They have two engine dynos and one chassis dyno and the stass is awesome. Some of the staff hold world records in drag boats, salt flats, and other forms of racing. Tom and Eugene strapped the Scion onto the big drum.

Tom pulled out his palm pilot with special ODBII software and plugged right into a port near your left leg on the driver's side. This was very cool since we could track a lot of engine functions...but the main one he wanted was temperature. We were also watching timing which seems to be set very conservatively, but can't be altered.

The best dyno shops strive for repeatability. Temperature is a huge influence on the final numbers. Tom would constantly rev my car to send the temp to approximately 205, then the coolant fan would trigger and send the temp down to 194. From there he would build temp again and at 196F we would start the test. If you don't do serious controls like this, then the data you get out is not accurate. Notice that Tom not only wanted 196, but he wanted it sweeping the temp up each time. It's little details like this that differentiate dyno shops. They also use giant fans in the front and sometimes rear of the vehicles.

If you have a newer version of quicktime, here is a small video I made with my cell phone on the middle of a sweep.

Stage 1 Results
This is the good news...the baseline with the Injen, MagnaFlow and DC header, came in at 100hp. Yay! I think this is approximately 10 over stock and I was pleased with the numbers. Then came the Camcon...

Camcon
I really wish I could tell you I had excellent results with the Camcon, but sadly I can't. My experience has been one of disappointment. We started building runs for the cam map. I made these pdf blank sheets for anyone to use to make things easier. We had trouble getting repeatability out of the unit and we also would get a different baseline with the unit on (when set to zero) or off. Here are some of the results from the initial pulls. 6 or 7 of the pulls had the baseline winning and the 2 or 3 that were higher, we way less that a 1HP increase (which might mean it is not really there). Now at this stage I was still happy with the Camcon, only disappointed in the results...those factory Toyota guys know their crap and I am sure they have the cams set pretty close to max right from the get go.

We decided to look at the AF chart from the origirnal baseline (which we repeated 2-3 times in the 3 hour period to make sure we weren't seeing voodoo) and it looked like there might be some power found here since the curve was pretty rich from the factory toyota settings. We decided to try the max lean setting which I think is minus 10 and just see if the curve moved at 1000 or 1500 rpm...and it moved a lot so we backed that off and went to -5...same thing and then -2...same thing. The changes were causing the same graph each time which was extra lean. We tried plus 20 rich to see if we could get something new on the chart...same pattern! We turned off the unit. Same whacked AF chart on a pull. At this point we were scratching our heads. We decided to fully disconnet the camcon and try to get our original baseline back (removing the AF ECU wire hacks). We did this and the graph magically returned to the chart from above.

Somehow the unit was locking the map lean, even when the unit was turned off! I called camcon and talked with the rep for 10 minutes...I'm sure he thought I was smoking crack and did not believe me. I had 3 witnesses and we all saw this strange occurance. I asked if I needed to reset the unit a certain way or had to turn off the car or something special...but no, the changes should occur on the fly.

Could the unit be wired wrong?
Possibly, but if you reverse the wires, you are going to hit CEL Check Engine Light immidiately. We double checked the wires and they were correct.

Could there be a bad ground?
There was no flicker what so ever and the unit ran smoothly with no funny leds etc.

Could the unit be damaged?
Possibly, althought the Camcon people said no. The unit powered on as it was supposed to and every setting was made just as in the manual. The unit flashed and was adjustable just as the intructions said.

I do think the camcon was adjusting timing since we could see big drops when we hit extremes like -20 degrees. Currently me and the dyno guys believe that the factory toyota engineers get the cams dialed in right from the start and so there probably isn't much to be found here. One of my old cobra buddies was head of engineering for Toyota on the West coast in the early 80s...he echoed these thoughts when I first showed him the camcon website.

I don't know why the camcon was struggling with AF settings. I think there was some HP to be found by influencing the AF map...but the unit was unable to move the map properly and then was influencing the map even when off (unless something else was going on...but the baseline came instantly back to normal once we unspliced the camcon plugs).

I will be anxious to read additional tests from future camcon users. I'm hoping scion owners have better results than I did. Here are some things you might consider when doing your testing.

1. Run a baseline with the unit powered off

2. Run a baseline with the unit powered on but set to 0

3. Re-check your baseline every 5-10 pulls

4. Check and recheck engine temperature each run. You must use the exact same temperature and you should even try to hit that temperature as it is going up from under it. If you want to make runs at 196F, rev the engine to heat it to the point where the fan kicks in, you can also turn on the heater...drop the temp to 194 and then let it pick up heat and begin all tests as it hits 196F.

24whp and the Future
I guess I've made 10 of the 24hp goal. I have more good news and I have not given up. Tom from the dyno will be helping install the new head, manifold and header, and we will also be testing custom length custom air intakes. I think we are going to find 10-12 HP with these changes. The head is a big one...I am just not sure what it will be worth.

Tom also tested a unit like the camcon (which only alters the AF map, not cam timing) a few months back on a truck engine...the engine went from 220whp to 270! They were able to alter the fuel curve and also trick the cpu to increase timing. Tom is ordering two of the experimental units...one for me and one for his Tiburon, and we are going to be back testing new fuel maps. The unit is laptop programmable and also will retail for something like $400. I am hoping we can find 5-8HP with it.

I hope to find those 14 hp near the end of July. I'll continue posting as parts come in.

Turbo and Super Charger Talk
Racer and writer "Richard Hudgins" was at the dyno today and was all ready to build me a turbo! hehe. It's too bad I live in california where everything is smog illegal. We got to talking about what was available for the Scion and I mentioned to him that the blowers were all 6psi or lower and bolt on. He snook his head and wondered how any of the units worked since few of them address the fuel map. Often blower companies release blowers and keep the psi low, not because of a weak bottom end, but because they offer "bolt on" and don't want to spend time tuning and altering the fuel map. This means the engine is forced to run leaner and leaner. You can see that the factory AF settings are relatively rich...and so you can get away with a little forced induction. I believe we would see stronger blowers available for the Scion if a company were to address the fuel issues...the problem with this is that you can quickly get into the 5k-6k range on a 14k car which would have very limited market appeal.

Here are some of my pal Richard's books if anyone is interested
High-Performance Ford Focus Builder's Handbook
Official Factory Guide to Building Ford Short-Track Power
How To Build Honda Horsepower: Dyno-Verified Results
5.0L Ford Dyno Tests

The Emperor Has No Clothes
Yes, I too used to believe that magazines were pure and honest. Magazines have to make money and they make money selling ads to sponsors. There is pressure on the mags to show products in a favorable light. I know many of you don't want to hear this but...there is no santa clause and...high voltage and grounding kits do not make more power on the dyno. Let the flames begin! lol


those are my stories for today. Hope they were amusing.



Andy
http://www.piratesofhorsepower.com
http://www.cobralads.com

 

Great info! Keep us up to date!

I'm sorry the Camcon didn't workout as you had hoped, but
I am glad you got the 100HP I expected (total) out of the
Muffler/Intake/Header combo!

Can't wait to see the head results! And I hope that AF tool
works better then the Camcon!

 

Great write up!
Toyota certainly fattened up the A/F curve. I bet you'd see better highway milage if you leaned out the A/F a bit. I'm sure there are a few ponies hidden in that WOT A/F curve.

Have you considered the Apex-i unit for A/F adjustment?

 

I had one or two bad links above. Here is the link I wanted to show with four or five pulls at various cam timing.

Hey Derk-xB, do you have a link to that unit? I'd be curious to read about it. thanks

 

i think he means the v-afc II or s-afc II...

http://www.apexi-usa.com/product_electronics.asp

oops we not honda/VTEC ... s-afc II then

 

great story! Thanks a lot for posting your results.
i was a very active member on DSM sites and always did you what you did
and post up results from my mods.

as a future xB owner its good to hear whats going on with other owners.

a question for you tho, did you feel a difference with bolting on the
intake, headers and exhaust? did you change the cat since it was a cat back
exhaust?

im just so spoiled with my DSM that just changing the air filter
made a huge difference but that cars already force fed.

THanks and good luck! you should try looking into that S-AFC II
it made huge gains on my dSM.

 

Exactly.

Twiddler - those graphs that you posted were pretty interesting. It looks like Toyota's got the cam timing dialed in pretty tight.
Are you able to adjust spark curves? Are you working on it? Most car companies are pretty conservative with their timing, and you might also want some timing adjustability when you change the compression ratio.
I think Greddy eManage can do A/F and spark...

 

emanage should be able to do both spark and fuel. but not cam stuff.

 

You can definitely feel intake, headers, and exhaust. My friend Scott and I bought Xbs at the same time and my improvements are a couple weeks ahead of his...you can easily feel the different with those three components. When you are revving hard and switching into the new gear, you can pull sooner, where with stock there is more of a weak spot or hesitation.

Timing would be huge since Toyota sets things fairly conservatively...I don't know if any of these units allows timing adjustment. We are going to next test a AF unit from Granatelli. This unit hasn't been tested on imports. It is laptop programmable and will also allow subtle adjustments like "under load" vs "off throttle" to the AF map. I'm anxious to see how things turn out.

 

It doesn't seem like the cams need optimization after seeing Twiddler's graphs...

 

i seen nice hp gains after with Balance shaft removals...so if the engine and u can handle the extra vibration...maybe u should consider trying that too

 

I dont think this motor needs it considering the storke isnt long like say a sentra. sentra's benefit alot

 

I'm looking to do the same thing,
I had checked out the DPR, Gude & Extrude Hone web sites,
I didn't think Extrude could work on the Intake manifold since it is plastic. The benefit I see with DPR or even Gude, is that they could match your head intake & exhaust ports to match the parts, and even the TB.
I'm looking for a used head to send out, I already found some off Echos from rebuilt cylinder shops around $300.
The price from Extrude to work the head is around $700, a head from DPR is $1000. But even then the price for N/A compare to force inductions kits is way lower.
Now I'm really searching for the head just to have it ready once I see your numbers....Keep it UP!!!

The Dyno video sounds wicked!
If it would be just sound I would never guess it was an XB.

 

I didn't know about DPR until now...that would probably be the best N/A solution if they are CNC porting the heads. I'd like to see some before and after flow data from them. When I swap heads next month, we'll have a flowbench right there and I will try and get some exact numbers on a stock head vs EH ported. EH has ported the plactic corvette intakes and so they were willing to try mine but I tend to think the plastic is too thin and the abrasive will cut through the sides.

I just spoke to greddy on the emanage unit. They said they didn't think they had tested it on a Scion yet. Westech Tom told me what to ask and Greddy confirmed how they alter timing. These units are piggy-back and do not replace the ECU...and so they end up "tricking" the computer to try and get to the end result. This becomes a case of robbing peter to pay pal. Here is how Tom explained it to me...

Westech Tom writes
"most units do timing by altering sensor inputs to the ecu same as air fuel adjustement. the problem with that is that all sensors will afect timing and air fuel ratio at the same time. example: when you want to lean out AF ratio it can change coolant temp. reading to the ecu lets say it will be 228 F when its only 180 F.the problem is that ECU will also retard timing to suppres detonation in owerheating sytuation."

It seems that gains in AF may be traded off for losses in timing or visa versa. It's unfortunate that timing is difficult to alter on this engine.

 

I'm also looking for a Block guard,
just incase once it do the work I jucie the motor. Have you found any??
Regarding the timing....MSD had that BTM ( I think that's the name??, It might be best for retarding timing vrs advancing, any chance that might work??!!