SWells679

Thanks for your post above. That one driver's side 14mm on the bracket was a P.I.T.A. If you hadn't posted about this method, though, I would've gone the "dropping the subframe" route and I wasn't looking forward to that. Thanks for your tips!

AP

SWells679 your welcome.

RichBinAZ

Got stopped at step 5. The bottom engine bracket bolt is right next to the subframe so the only chance was a flat ring spanner, but I had to use a crowbar to move the engine forward enough to get a straight shot at the bolt. But I can't crow bar and pull on the spanner at the same time.

Was tempted to drop the subframe, but I'm not sure what happens with the steering shaft, or the alignment putting it back up.
I see there are some adjustment holes right next to the main 18mm bolts, for realigning. Slightly bigger than 1/2", so probably metric.

Putting it back together tomorrow in the cool of the morning. The lad will just have to shell out some of his "incentive $$$" to have a shop do it.

SWells679

RichBinAZ,

My step 5) above is the Main Mount thru bolt. It looks like you're describing Step 9? I was able to slide a 6pt. 14mm on it with no problem. I did have my floor jack with a hunk of wood on the Transaxle just forward of the subframe, but it wasn't pumped up very much. Just enough to take a strain...keep everything in place.
Also, I have a Manual...I have no idea if there is a slight difference if you have an Auto. or not.

rjsalvi

I have a few questions, please:
* what were the exact symptoms for suspecting the mount? Clunking, uncontrollable shaking, clutch judder? At idle, when you mash the accelerator, both?
* is the rear mount a widespread issue?
* can the mount be inspected from the top, or do I need to get under the vehicle?
* what are the average miles on the odometer before most who have this issue, experience it?

The reason I ask these questions, is because I have an '04 xB with only 88K miles and I'm experiencing what I believe to be clutch judder upon clutch release. In fact, I'd just posted the other day looking for a reference for a mechanic to replace the clutch. I don't have any other symptoms except clutch judder, and only when taking off from a dead stop. Without getting too long-winded, even when the xB was new, I'd get a small amount of clutch judder on rainy days and have trouble believing that I need a clutch at only 88K, especially since I'm not one to beat on my cars. I appreciate any info regarding the symptoms of this motor mount issue. Thx.

SWells679

My symptoms were (are), a non-suspension related squeaking sound as I let off the clutch during each shift (at slow speeds...it may do it at higher speeds 3rd to 4th/4th to 5th, but I'm unable to hear it). I'd describe it as the mounts taking up the torque slack of the engine speed. Since, like you, it's a manual, I'm unable to have someone put it into gear while I visibly inspect the engine in gear, I kinda deduced what it was and committed to replacing them...when time allowed.
The car now has 191K on it, but when I first noticed it, had about 180K and I'm the 3rd owner and it has spent the first years of its life in NH and FL (now in VA), and while rust isn't a problem (some fasteners maybe), there is some wear and tear. I don't know what the life expectancy of your average engine mount is.
WRT the mounts, I've done the Driver's Side one (under the battery) and the rear one (which was the most difficult) and each had significant wear, so I'm glad I did. The remaining one, Passenger Side next to the alternator is next...when I can afford it.
The "widespread issue" you mention WRT the rear mount was more of a not-much-tech-help-available on the innerwebs aspect...until recently when RichBinAZ posted a yT video asking about it then others chimed in citing difficulty in replacing. And, on Reddit, another guy was looking for help in the process. Since I've replaced those other two, I noticed some smoother acceleration as the engine doesn't "torque" as much in the sloppy/old mounts, so that's helpful. I still have a little squeak as before which I'll have to check out more in depth if the remaining mount replacement isn't it.
To your question about clutch jitter...this is the first Toyota manual I've ever owned but I've driven a handful of borrowed Tacomas in the past. I've ALWAYs been amazed at how "sloppy" Toyota clutches are. I was mainly a Honda guy so maybe I've been spoiled with tighter clutches and shifter throws, but my xB is typical of what my personal experience has been w/Toyota sticks. I don't experience any "clutch jitter" in mine, but the engagement point is shorter than I would have expected. I barely have the pedal off the floor and it engages. The previous owner said it's always been like that. I've had the car for 4 years and it's never changed, so that must be the way it is. I am starting to notice some noise when I have the clutch engaged...sounds like the pressure plate is "dry". Meh, almost 200K? It might be time...
Can the mount be inspected? Yes...sorta. You can see it from the top pretty much dead center behind the engine. If you remove the air box, you can see it really well, and an inspection mirror really helps. From underneath, all you can really see is the 3 fasteners and the mount/bracket arrangement.
In my unprofessional opinion, I don't think your clutch issue is related to anything mount related.
I have no idea if that answered your questions...I kinda got on a rambling roll there.
-Scott in VA

rjsalvi

Thanks, Scott!

RichBinAZ

My son's car is an automatic with 150K miles and the mount part numbers differ between a stick shift (12371-21021) and auto(12371-23011) - so perhaps there are dimensional differences between the 2.
I did call the dealer to get a quote for changing the mount and he said it was logged at 1 hour so $180, with me providing the mount. Son said he would do that but it's just a question of when for him.
The dealer got to talking about what a pain they are to change and I agreed. He said they loosen all 3 mounts and jack the engine around to get the rear out. I think you would need a proper car lift and tranny jack for that, so

Symptoms:
The car has had vibration at idle for some time now. We did all the other things like cleaning out the idle air bypass valve (physical cleaning not just carb cleaner), spark plugs, but it persisted.
The engine rocks fore and aft a bit under load. I did video that but I want to do another with the mount fixed to see the difference as it is slight.

So i got under to try and see if the mount had failed. It is really hard to see from above and below, but if you have a small mirror you can get a look at the rubber elements in the mount.
I'm pretty sure on his car that two of the arms have failed on one side (see pic in post #16 above, which only shows cracks). The Center mount bolt sits low... below the centerline of the mount, kind of a giveaway

These pics are stills from a video so not the best. Look to the image in the mirror. In the mirror down is left



Exhaust right, mount center, mirror left



Closer, see how low the bolt sits



Closest-mirror only Something isn't right

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SWells679

RichBinAZ,

$180 and they're using your part? That's a deal!
Loosening all 3 mounts to get that one, sounds like the best way...if you've got the equipment. That's probably why it'll only take an hour. That method is what that guy on Reddit mentioned. I'm not sure about the different part numbers. It was my understanding that the Pass. Side & the Rear are the same, but the Driver's Side/XMSN one is the different one...but, I'm not 100% on that.
It took me 7 hours, but that includes about 2 hours (srlsy) to get that one 14mm Driver's Side mount bolt off...plus, I may have taken an extended lunch to re-group.
Also, here's a data point that I'd like to point out: I notice on your vehicle the center mount thru bolt goes from left to right (as you're looking at it from underneath) the guy that I "talked" to on Reddit had the same situation. He was unable to pull that bolt because it would interfere with the Power Steering lines RIGHT there. On my car (5 spd), that center bolt goes from Pass. Side to the Driver's side. I don't know the orientation is dependent on the style of XMSN. I just checked my buddy's '06 (Auto) and that bolt is the same as yours.

Scott

RichBinAZ

Yea, at about 9 minutes into the video (post #12), you can see the bolt and special nut they use. That nut is "tanged" to the engine mount and won't rotate.
The bolt head is on the drivers side and yes the head is too close to the power steering lines, unless you jack it around like crazy, and then I could only get a 3/8" drive socket on it. my 1/2" drive stuff wouldn't fit.
For giggles I did try to loosen the center bolt on the transmission mount and all that did was push me across the floor, didn't budge the nut at all.
We had the passenger mount loose, but it didn't really help.

SWells679

Ah but here's the thing about that "ranged" center bolt nut... it's not. Meaning, it's removable so (based on my conversations with the Reddit guy) it can go on either side of the mount. It has a tab on it that goes into a slot and can be placed on either side.

RichBinAZ

So just to close out our little adventure with this mount. We had it replaced at the dealer a few days ago (Riverview, Mesa). Cost something like $165 after tax, with us supplying the mount.
The mechanic doing it said he lowered the subframe a couple of inches in order to get it out and left the old mount in the car for us to look at.

The mount had cracks that I've tried to highlight in the pictures below. I thought one side had broken away, but it had not. Very hard to tell with the mount in place.
Sticking a screwdriver into the mount hole and twisting shows the cracks.
The interesting part was the polished area on the bottom and how low the central bolt hole was compared to the outer mount loop.
We suspect the sagging of the mount caused the vibration that could be felt at low idle and the polishing was the result of the vibration.

The new mount has a different design and my son reports that the car drives like new (ish) Well, at least the vibration at low idle is gone.
So if you are looking for a symptom, vibration at low idle may be an indicator.
A visual clue is to go under with a mirror and see if the center bolt has sagged.
Pics


Twisting the mount



The other side



Note low center for bolt hole and polished zone on bottom

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RichBinAZ

Just saw this - wish I had thought of it!!! would have made the removal & install so much easier


I even have the same mini sledge hammer.

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SWells679

Well, that is A method, I guess. I'm trying to stay OEM. I actually stumbled upon something similar last year when we originally discussed this. He calls them studs, which they are,
but they're spot-welded to the mount. He's basically breaking those spot welds to get the studs out. When they go back in, they're not exactly OEM design.

I'll reserve my opinion on his filling in the mount "air gaps" design change.

Thanks, Rich for keeping us updated on this topic, thought.

Scott

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DannoXYZ

Yeah, I haven't had good experience with refurbishing mounts by filling air-gaps. That makes mount too stiff to absorb vibrations and you get same symptoms as broken mount.

B_dub

Original owner of an automatic 2006 Scion xB here (located in the Chicago area). 130K and going strong.

It's time to replace this pesky rear motor mount.
This is where I am so far:
- when tryinig to remove the one bolt from the bottom (through the subframe) it cut in halve on me, so I had to order a new one
- I am attempting the same method as the Youtube video mentioned in this thread, to hit the two pins with a hammer to break them loose
- I purchased a replacement mount from Rockauto.com, and was able to easily grind off the spot welds to detach the two pins from the replacement motor mount

The big challenge where I am right now, is that I am not able to loosen the bolt that goes through the motor mount. On mine the steering rack is totally in the way.

I'm hoping somebody could please provide me with suggestions. I can post pictures if that were to be helpful.

SWells679

Dude,
I'm not a fan of that YouTube method where that guy disassembles a mount. That ain't the way it's supposed to be. This through bolt installation came up on a similar thread over on Reddit years ago. On my 5sp MT, that bolt goes in the other direction and the steering rack piping isn't in the way. Can you get another of those bolts and cut the current one out? Then you could run the new bolt from the other direction.
Also, I would recommend getting another mount and installing it the way I described in this thread.
R/Scott

B_dub

Good point. I can easily sacrifice the current through bolt. Had crossed my mind as well.
Yet another trip to the local Toyota dealer to spend $5 😀

And I can easily spot weld the pins back onto the motor mount I have.

Thank you

RichBinAZ

Probably read the bit and saw the video where we gave up
That bolt was super tight and it wasn't even rusted in on our car.
Think we had to loosen the passenger mount so we could jack the engine around to get clearance.
Even so, the mount would not come out.

We took it to the dealer and he lowered the subframe while on a car lift. Got it done.

B_dub

Update on previous message.

I finally was able to replace the faulty rear engine mount with a new one.

This is what ended up working for me:
- it took an entire weekend
- I did it with a buddy. Made a big difference, both double the strength but also two brains, formulating a plan before every step
- we watched the YouTube videos available multiple times
- everything was done on the garage floor with no lift

A few key take always:
* the central pin / bolt through the mount was fused with the metal sleeve in the rubber. I had to cut it in halve with a sawzell which was a pain but it worked.
* removing the air box was perhaps not strictly necessary but very helpful
* i ended up using multiple jack stands (6), and two floor jacks (one supporting the engine) and one for the subframe.
* it’s possible and not as hard as I thought to drop the subframe. It gives you the needed space to remove the mount from underneath.
* I did remove the spot welts holding the two pins to the new mount. I see no reason it to be an issue and it sure gives you more space to install the mount.
* a lot of work was done from the top of the engine, below and the driver side front wheel well.

As proof here is the old mount. The one mount bolt is totally eaten up by salt and moisture.