armhergo

itsme

No, you cant hit top speed in 4th gear on an xB because you will start to Redline around 115 or so...........

_____________

armhergo

OK, for the Yaris T Sport sold in my country you can actually hit 200 kp/h in 4th gear...... so maybe that the kind of swap needed here.....

________

sikbrik

Just as a follow-up, the 03 Corolla transmission will bolt up directly to the 1NZ, has a .725 fifth gear, and a 3.72 final drive. This will definitely lower cruising RPM, but also hurt off the line.

Also, I'm fairly certain that the 5th gear from the later Corolla will interchange with our 5th gear, allowing us to keep our short final drive but have a taller 5th cruising gear. Anyone from a Toyota parts dept want to confirm this?

________

Wraith

p.s.
I'm the guy with the 6-spd Echo...

_____

sikbrik

**edited for 'douche bag-iness' and '_____iness'**

**Example of _____iness:

I'm not trying to hate, man, but I don't get the point of a post that says you have a 6-spd and then no details to help any fellow members out. It's cool...I'm happy for you...but is there anything else?**

Wraith

wow...excuse me for having a life...
Man as soon as I post something some on this freaking board some freaking scion owner flames me...
Dude, I apologize your majesty for not having the pics or a write up on the tranny swap. And I apologize for been on vacation for the past month...
If you didnt know I'm stuck at work and have no links to pictures on my computer.

p.s. if you really looked on all the threads I posted ... heres a post
heres the link

p.s. I didnt know I owed you anything... Where I had to give you information right away...

Man this board is really filled with a bunch of awesome guys ... This is my last post here on this forum...

sikbrik

I'm a douchebag.

Dude, I didn't flame you at all. Called you out...maybe. I mean, I was only asking what the point of your post was??? ~Woo hoo...I've got a six speed and you don't.~ WTF?

You're not the first or only one to say that the bellhousings were interchangeable on the C series transaxles, and I didn't say you "owed" me or anyone else an explanation BUT if you DON'T have one, then why post some "p.s." comment with no details?

Regarding information "right away", the post you link to is from December...sorry if I assumed 5 months was enough time to at least share a few real specs other than that it bolts in, since you've had time between now and then to tell everyone you have a 6-spd. How long does it take to say, "Hey, just so you know, the C160 is 2 inches longer than the C150"? Then, a lame flamer like me can go measure the distance from the end of my current case and say "Damn, that's gotta be a big cut into the chassis...maybe I should just stop researching right now."

I'm a douchebag. I said it again, to reinforce the fact. But why can't you understand that since you're the only one who has done this (at least who posts on this board) and you constantly boast about it, maybe you should share some REAL details?!? By continually saying "I did it" and "It can be done", you are sort of obligating yourself to share a little bit more. If you don't want to share then don't tell us it's possible because, without more info, it's really not realistic for most.

Imagine I did a 2-ZZ swap and kept posting in the engine swap threads "btw...I have a 2-ZZ in my xA and it basically bolts up." Don't you think people would expect me to share a few more details than that? I'm sorry you think I'm the one with the problem...I'm just looking for answers.

__________

sikbrik

In case anyone is interested:

Most, if not all, internals from the C15x, C16x, C6x, and C5x are fairly interchangeable. This is not from direct experience, but it is confirmed as fact from much research and others' experience.

The C60/C160 (six speed) is approximately 2 inches (50mm) longer than the C50/C150, according to a reliable source. Waiting on exact dimensions.

C6x input and output shaft assemblies have the same specs (except for overall length and the diameters of 5th and 6th gear)) as the C5x and (this next part is speculation, backed up pretty heavily by research) should be able to be swapped into your existing case with your existing differential. This would allow you to use your stock axles. You will need to change over to the end cover from the six-speed, as well, since it accomodates the extra gears.

The C160 that wraith mentions is used as a 'bolt-in' because it allows you to use your stock axles and mounts, despite having to cut the frame. The C60 from a Celica GTS may also allow you to use your stock mounts (no confirmation yet) but you will need to use GTS inner joints mated to your stock axles and swap over your bellhousing and linkages. Probably still cheaper and easier than finding a japan spec trans.

Also, for those not interested in the 6-spd:

5th gear from a 2000 or newer Corolla 5-spd will interchange with your current 5th gear, based on toyota's specs. This gets you .725 5th instead of .815. This would result in RPM dropping almost 450rpm at 65mph in 5th. It's a start.

The final drive from the Echo was the previously acccepted way of dropping the final drive ratio. Note that the 2003 and newer corolla use a C15x based transmission and the final drive is 3.94:1, which would be much more suited to combining performance and economy than the Echo parts. I don't know yet whether the stock inner joints are compatible with the Corolla final drive but, if not, it would simply mean you'd use the drive gears on your stock carrier.

If anyone is truly interested in the possible donor cars and gear ratio information, contact me and I'll email you a spreadsheet that I put together.

Thanks to board member ProctorSilex for assistance with this research.

dgHotLava

also, if you are interested in dropping the final drive you can get TRD parts...
two gear sets avail...a 3.77 and a 4.0 (stock is 4.31)

note: dropping the final drive will stretch each gears power band (might not be smart for some...)
if you like to cruise around 60mph in 5th, stock rpms would be 3000...with the 4.0 final it would be 2700ish...
this is well below the bower band of the motor and makes it hard to pass people without downshifting....
you'll find yourself downshifting a lot or just running a lower gear too much.

if you cruise at 70-80mph it is fine though...it puts you right in the sweet spot of the power band....

sikbrik

I know that most of you already know this, as it's been posted before but I just found out that Wraith is a stand-up guy and he's explained his situation to me (not that he owed it to me, as he mentioned). I jumped the gun out of frustration and made a mountain out of a mole hill.

There is going to be much more development on this six speed swap very soon, I'm sure, and I think Wraith might even be posting a few pics soon.

I feel like I got smacked at the dinner table ...oh well, I'll bite my tongue next time.

proctorsilex

the problem with the sweet spot is running in it constantly. i don't pass people much, nor do i do it quickly when i bother. down shifting for those rare occasions probably wouldn't bother me. echo drivers haven't been complaining.

i like first and second a lot for autocrossing, but fifth can stand to be taller for me.

thanks sikbrik, but you're the mad researcher!
you've put a lot into the tranny research.

hopefully, we'll get someone rolling with their ratios of choice soon.

sikbrik

Gotta put this back out there, since no local dealers want to help me:

If anyone on the board knows someone in a parts dept at a Toyota dealership that can get me 5th gear (drive and driven) for an 03 Corolla, I'll offer up a slightly used boost gauge for your trouble. Get me a discount, and there's a T3 in it for you!

Agreed on the sweet spot thing...but unlike you, Proctor, I roll 75+ in the left lane when I'm actually in 5th (learned to drive in NJ) so passing is a constant!

Tumbleking

Any recent progress? Anyone find out who had the 6 spd xB? How much are you looking at for the 6 spd swap saying...one could figure out how to do this?

proctorsilex

^^
the six speed swap is possible. there are a couple of unknowns though.
the two possible donor transaxles are the C60 and the C160.
we do not know if the stock drive shafts are compatible with either six speed. if neither is, then you would have to do a frankenstein build using the C150 and the donor to make a hybrid that retains the stock differential. maybe it'd be possible to install an lsd meant for the C150 into the C160. don't know.
the parts in these transaxles are fairly interchangeable.
further, the frankenstein transaxle that uses most of the C150 housing might be narrower than a C60 or C160 thereby requiring less frame modification.

the transaxle itself is not the problem, but the frame cutting is. finding an established/reputable auto shop that will do frame modifications on unibody is next to impossible.
the issue is safety and culpability. the shops do not want any responsibility for the safety of their work, so they do not take any jobs that are risky.

maybe wraith had to sign a waiver or something.

the frame modification looks possible and relatively minor. if it is cut precisely to fit the transaxle, then it will avoid the crumple zone dimples. however, it would take an expert to know if that would negatively affect a crash.

if anyone here knows of a shop that does good unibody alterations, then maybe it is possible. otherwise, skip it, diy, or find someone who does not care.

i'm still interested in the fifth gear swap, though. i'm thinking that if we find a source for the gears, i'll also get a lsd. then i'll take out the transaxle and take the whole bit over to a shop to do thegear and lsd install.

Tumbleking

cool... so a differnt 5th gear very possible? and better gas milage in high range? ( sorry still a noob and not very knowledgable on trannies )

SnakeXB

if you guys want to do a tranny swap, I would look into the yaris tranny, much better gear ratios
instead of 4k at 80mph like the xb
your at about 3400 rpm at 80 mph
this will help your mpg and top end

proctorsilex

if that's true, then i'll take a wild guess that the yaris has the same transaxle as the echo. someone can look that one up to be sure.
the problem with the echo transaxle is that it has a low final drive ratio, which makes every gear lower.

one of the things that many like about the xa/xb is the "sporty" gearing. it works very well off the line. i love second, third, and fourth. first is decent. fifth is fine the way it is, but without a sixth gear, i'd rather have it taller to quiet the cabin a bit and save fuel.
for autocrossing and tooling around, i want to keep first through fourth the same. but, i am willing to sacrifice fifth for the highway.

tumbleking, yes, the fifth swap is quite possible. the internals of the C series transaxles are by and large interchangeable. sikbrik has done a ton of reasearch on that. it's just a matter of getting the gears and actually doing it now.

sikbrik

Nobody that I know of has done it yet, but any 5th from a C150 series trans will definitely fit (Later Tercels used a C151) and I'm 99% sure that any C50 series 5th gears will work, as well (I'm going to be ordering both 5th gears {drive and driven} from an '03 Corolla as soon as I find time to actually do the swap...I was hoping Proctor would be the guinea pig and go first!). This would allow a .725 5th (same ratio as 6th in the C160). You'd keep your stock 1-4. This would reduce cruising RPM by about 500 at 65mph.

Wraith has confirmed that our stock axles work with the C160. Like Proctor said, not sure about the C60 but I think it has a different (heavier duty) differential that might require different inner joints.

xBMX_Racing

What is the 6-Speed Manual that the Toyota Matrix XRS has in it? Will it work in the xB?