avus

am looking for a general overview (pros and cons) (do's and don'ts) with regards to wheel spacers.
saw that the scionlife store is now listing spacers of varying sizes. which offset for which size? if one is riding on a +42 offset, would the 15mm pair work or just the 5mm pair?
https://www.scionlife.com/store/catWheelSpacers.shtml

scionaraxb

personally, I'd buy new wheels with a different offset before I'd put ANY spacer on my car. I think they're dangerous.
Just my 2¢.

Mr_scion

search is your friend at the top


https://www.scionlife.com/forums/vie...hlight=spacers

scionara

I was also convinced not using spacers until I asked an advice from a professional in the tire/wheel/alignment business. When I posted this question in this forum, every single person responded would not recommend to use a spacer. My question back then, did any of these people actually used spacers in their vehicle in the past?

I decided to use a 5mm spacer just to try it out (besides, it only cost me like $12). No vibration, there's enough thread to hold the wheel and 9000 miles later it feels like the spacer is not even on there.

Based on my experience, consult with a professional prior to installing the spacers. Make sure there's enough thread to hold the tire. The H&R are the best spacer kit out there, but if you're just going to add no more than 5mm, the $12 kit is good enough.

Below, is a pic of my xB with 5mm spacer on a +42mm offset. I only installed the spacers in the rear. No spacers needed in the front.

JDMxB

Yea, everyone on here usually recommends against them--but I'm having some custom ones made in order to accomadate the hubcentric ring that will be built in to them to fit my wheels.

The guy who sold me the wheels originally said the offset were lower than when i got to his house...so I just bought them...and in order for them to fit I need to run spacers, so the ones i'm getting will be custom H&R that will make my offset +30 while letting me run a hubring. It also will give me brand new lug studs...so no loss of thread.

avus

so, putting 15mm spacers on +42 offset wheels will effectively turn the offset to +27? How much for those custom spacers, and how do i get a set? those custom spacers with hubcentric rings seem to be the best compromise of lower offset without a loss in threading.

George

I would not be too impressed by advice from professionals in the tire/wheel/alignment business. They are probably very good at getting the settings in your suspension right, but are they experts in the stresses that are taken by your wheels, hubs, steering and bearings? I sincerely doubt it, as a good understanding of that requires at least an engineering degree and several years' experience in design.

The studs of your car are designed to have the wheel in intimate contact with the hub, and putting a spacer in between can multiply the lateral forces on the studs by several times. It also inceases the elasticity of the wheel/hub assembly, which can lead to breakage or loosening of the studs.

The bearings of your front hubs are designed to operate with the center of the tire at a particular location relative to the hub. Moving the tire in or out from this location can overload one of the bearings. It also puts steering and suspension parts under additional stress and can cause pulling to the side if a tire goes flat.

By introducing another part, you are increasing the chances of misalignment and wobble in the wheel.

Suspension and steering design is a delicate art. It's a testament to the designer's expertise that backyard "engineers" get away with as much as they do.

George

Djuan

Yeah I agree with George, it reminds me of when alot of people who stuck on intakes on their integras were sucking up water when it rained...

ScionVan

There is a stigma against the use of spacers because there have been many cases where spacers have caused problems. In some extreme instances, wheels have fallen off and caused massive damage to the vehicle and/or driver (I know of one person who had a wheel fall off on the freeway from a failed adapter/spacer before, but this was a really strange incident!) Anyway, in most cases, you should avoid using those so-called universal spacers; the kind you can buy at pep boys or kragen for a couple bucks with a bunch of holes and slots in them. They are designed to work for such a wide range of bolt patterns that they usually don't end up sitting correctly on your hub underneath your wheel, eventually leading to imbalance problem. They are also usually made from poor quality castings, and can shatter or crack easily. Billet spacers are on the opposite end of the spectrum, and are generally safe to use.

Without resorting to extended wheel studs, you will want to stick to a spacer no thicker than 5mm. Going any thicker will cause problems as you won't have enough thread to engage with your lug nuts.

Djuan

now I know how to covertly attack my enemies... four words... Pep Boys Universal Spacers !!!

George

Ah, he said the magic word, bringing on "George's Billet Rant"

What does "billet" really mean? A "billet" is a chunk of metal, in its raw state. The quickest way to make many prototype parts is to simply machine them from a block of metal without forming, forging, or any other intermediate steps. These parts are called "billet" parts. Since race cars often needed quick prototype parts, they often used parts machined from billet until better finished parts became available. To racers "billet" parts were a quick and dirty solution to immediate problems, not a desirable item to have on one's car.

Machining a billet isn't the best way to make parts, as machining a billet ignores grain flow in the metal and introduces stress risers that reduce the fatigue strength of the part, particularly in reciprocating or rotating applications. It is also very wasteful of material.

At races, spectators saw those shiny machined parts on race cars, associated "billet" with "trick" and suddenly everyone in the car biz had to have "billet" parts. The accessory manufacturers responded strongly and soon you could get "billet" anything, even if they did cheat and superficially machine purpose-shaped castings.

So, should you use "billet" parts? In non-structural and decorative roles, they are obviously fine. In structural roles, you have to be sure that the part was designed with enough strength built in to overcome fatigue life and stress riser problems. A machined forging can be made much lighter than a machined billet, but the cost goes up as well. There are also machined castings being sold as "billet" but without looking at the processes you can't tell much about the quality of the part. Buyer beware and all that!

That's the "George's billet rant". Thanks for listening!

Consider the loading on those wheel studs. They are normally loaded along a length of a couple of millimeters in a normal wheel application. By adding a 5mm spacer, you are more than tripling their loaded length. If your wheel undergoes a firm impact, you are multiplying the moment applied to each stud at its base by 3-1/2 times.

You will probably be OK, since wheel studs are overdesigned by a factor of 10. Still, when you alter the functionality of these parts you had better be willing to take on the responsibility of doing stress analysis on the new configuration. In this case, you've gone from a safety margin of 10:1 to a safety margin of less than 3:1. Tossing parts in and hoping they hang together doesn't cut it anymore. Back in the Chevy days the cars were so robust that the backyard mechanic could get away with a lot, but on our Scions the margin is much thinner! Modders have to be mucn more savvy about the consequences of their mods.

George

Djuan

you guys have some good stuff to teach me, somehow I feel "schooled"

ScionVan

George you know what I meant when I compared the billet spacers to the cheaply cast ones though. Billet being those that are actually machined from billet chunks of aluminum (i.e. more uniform structure to begin with) with bolt pattern holes made for a particular application so that they fit on the hub correctly vs. cast being those cheap spacers that are poured in a sand mold (if you're lucky, they might be vacuum molded in investment, but I highly doubt it) with all the casting flash left on, and with a ton of universal bolt pattern holes machined in it, so that the spacer doesn't sit perfectly centered on the hub when you put it on... now those should be highly avoided.

As for the loading on the studs, you are right that by adding material in depth to the studs you are increasing the load on the studs, but you gotta also remember that the forces are not all applied along the length of the stud, but to their attachment point to the hub, though I suppose that with a thicker mounting pad (from adding a spacer to a wheel), you will multiply the torque applied to said attachment point. Hmmm, either way, as you said, the studs are usually way over-engineered, so even a 5mm spacer will do no real harm as is. Though, I still advocate the use of a high quality spacer, and not a general "universal" piece.

JDMxB

Just got home from getting the rear spacers for my car. They are ones with new lug studs--not the cheap 'billet' ones.

Can one of you fellas enlighten me on how exactly do these "higher" quality spacers with the new lug studs and everything work?

I'm under the impression that they have to possibly grind or something the original lug studs...?

Ideally, i'd like to know how exactly the spacer goes on, and where everything works out and how. thanks!

bighardhat

Here is my two cents.

Hubcentric rings are required for the the front wheels if your wheels do not already have a 54.1 mm centerbore. This will aid in centering the wheels on the hub to reduce/eliminate wheel bounce or shimmy. The alignment on the front hubs is more critical than the rear.

Wheel/hub spacers are accpetable for use on the rear. Cast, billet, forged it doesn't matter, as the forces these "see" are compression and unless they have been annealed to butter soft hardness they will be fine. They however need to have paraellel faces. Longer studs are needed no matter how minimal you go in thickness as thread engagement is your friend. These are easily replaced by threading an old nut on to them and whacking with a mallet. The new studs are then seated into the holes by using a stack up of washers and that old lugnut torqued to 100-120 lb-ft. of torque. (remove nut and washers and move to the next bolt)

On either front or rear you must ease the wheel into place by stepping up the torque on each lugnut in to tradtional cross pattern. This needs to be done with the wheel unloaded. The fronts will be helped by the hub ring and the rears will be aligned by the tapper of the bolt hole. I generally start at 20 lb-ft and step up by 10 lb-ft. until I hit 80 lb-ft. Then I drive on them for 50-100 miles and re-torque at 80 lb-ft. If you do not attempt to center the wheels on the hub you get wheel hop or shimmy. Over time this can increase the wear on bearing and provide a poor ride/handeling.

As for shear loads, the small lip on the hubs does not provided significant support.

If you disagree so be it, but the degrees on my wall and years of experience makes me feel comfortable in my setup.