Help''...Still have knock/ping running 93 octane
08-29-2006, 02:19 PM
#21
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Re: I just called another dealer.....
Originally Posted by Taknitez
I called another dealer. The service guy there said that it is "not" the knock sensor since my "check engine" light is not "on". He said as long as it is not on, then the knock sensor is performing as it should and they will not replace it.
He did tell me to try another brand of good gasoline such as Exxon or Mobil...etc....since it could be the type of "detergents" that BP may be using.
Does this sound right to you all as to what he said and what he thought about the gas and knock sensor??
He did tell me to try another brand of good gasoline such as Exxon or Mobil...etc....since it could be the type of "detergents" that BP may be using.
Does this sound right to you all as to what he said and what he thought about the gas and knock sensor??
08-29-2006, 04:32 PM
#22
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Re: I just called another dealer.....
Originally Posted by Taknitez
He did tell me to try another brand of good gasoline such as Exxon or Mobil...etc....since it could be the type of "detergents" that BP may be using.
http://www.toptiergas.com/
anyway... if you're still under warranty.. i would definitely have it looked at thoroughly
08-29-2006, 04:56 PM
#25
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thanks
Well after a major computer screw up on my part......
Please forgive me for the posts......
1. hi
2. hi
3. for the 93 Octane Ping Post.
I meant to just reply to this one. I contacted "Troy-Scion Administrator" to help me out with that dumb as. screw up......
anyway....
As you can see from the other posts, my tech guy is gonna do everything and check everything possible on it, under it, beside it...etc. He is gonna hook it up to the computers as well . He knows I am upset and is gonna do everything he can.
Thanks for all of the advice , keep it coming and thanks for the gasoline tips''!
Please forgive me for the posts......
1. hi
2. hi
3. for the 93 Octane Ping Post.
I meant to just reply to this one. I contacted "Troy-Scion Administrator" to help me out with that dumb as. screw up......
anyway....
As you can see from the other posts, my tech guy is gonna do everything and check everything possible on it, under it, beside it...etc. He is gonna hook it up to the computers as well . He knows I am upset and is gonna do everything he can.
Thanks for all of the advice , keep it coming and thanks for the gasoline tips''!
08-30-2006, 06:33 PM
#26
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Originally Posted by jethro_b
...87 is all we ever need!
References:
1. The 2005 xB was advertised by Scion to make:
108 hp 6000 rpm
105 ft-lb 4200 rpm
2. The 2006 xB was advertised to make:
103 hp 6000 rpm
101 ft-lb 4200 rpm
3. The Owners Manual, Section 2, Page 114 says:
OCTANE RATING
Select Octane Rating 87... or higher.
Use of unleaded gasoline with an octane rating or research octane number lower than (87 octane) stated above will cause persistent heavy knocking. If it is severe, this will lead to engine damage.
4. Tech Literature:
DIAGNOSTICS - SFI SYST
DTC P0325 - KNOCK SENSOR 1 CIRCUIT - CIRCUIT DESCRIPTION
Knock sensor is fitted on the cylinder block to detect the engine knocking. This sensor contains a piezoelectric element which generates a voltage when it becomes deformed, which occurs when the cylinder block vibrates due to knocking. If engine knocking occurs, the ignition timing is delayed to suppress it.
Items:
1. There was no change to the 2006 engine to cause the reduced power and torque.
2. 87 octane is the minimum that the engine will run on without knocking.
3. The engine has a knock sensor that retards the ignition to stop knocking.
4. Retarding the ignition reduces power.
5. The knock sensor cannot retard the ignition enough to prevent knocking on octane below 87.
6. The octane language in the 2005 and 2006 Owners Manuals is the same.
7. The words "or higher" after 87 octane are significant.
Statements (without a source):
8. Scion tested the 2005 engine on premium gas.
9. For 2006 Scion was told to either (a) retest the engine on the 87 octane gas recommended in the Owners Manual, or (b) explain that the engine would run on a minimum of 87 octane but made more power on premium. Scion chose to stay with the present language in the manual, and so had to de-rate the engine to 103 HP using 87 octane.
08-30-2006, 07:39 PM
#27
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Originally Posted by vintage42
Statements (without a source):
8. Scion tested the 2005 engine on premium gas.
9. For 2006 Scion was told to either (a) retest the engine on the 87 octane gas recommended in the Owners Manual, or (b) explain that the engine would run on a minimum of 87 octane but made more power on premium. Scion chose to stay with the present language in the manual, and so had to de-rate the engine to 103 HP using 87 octane.
8. Scion tested the 2005 engine on premium gas.
9. For 2006 Scion was told to either (a) retest the engine on the 87 octane gas recommended in the Owners Manual, or (b) explain that the engine would run on a minimum of 87 octane but made more power on premium. Scion chose to stay with the present language in the manual, and so had to de-rate the engine to 103 HP using 87 octane.
See this thread and others for discussion: https://www.scionlife.com/forums/vie...422214#1422214
RichC
08-30-2006, 08:00 PM
#28
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Originally Posted by vintage42
Originally Posted by kevets
out of curiosity... why run 93 octane?
08-30-2006, 08:02 PM
#29
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this knocking/ping you are hearing is the way these crappy lil 1.5's sound it isn't ping or knock , if it was youd be having massive problems by now. maybe if you drive with a heavier foot. accel more rapidly. then you won't even know about the crappy sounds this motor makes.
09-01-2006, 12:04 PM
#30
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Originally Posted by rdclark
Originally Posted by vintage42
Statements (without a source):
8. Scion tested the 2005 engine on premium gas.
9. For 2006 Scion was told to either (a) retest the engine on the 87 octane gas recommended in the Owners Manual, or (b) explain that the engine would run on a minimum of 87 octane but made more power on premium. Scion chose to stay with the present language in the manual, and so had to de-rate the engine to 103 HP using 87 octane.
8. Scion tested the 2005 engine on premium gas.
9. For 2006 Scion was told to either (a) retest the engine on the 87 octane gas recommended in the Owners Manual, or (b) explain that the engine would run on a minimum of 87 octane but made more power on premium. Scion chose to stay with the present language in the manual, and so had to de-rate the engine to 103 HP using 87 octane.
I have not seen an original source, just this:
Originally Posted by Tomas
... What the SAE is requiring now is that the engines be run with all their normal loads attached and with the tuning, FUEL, and lubricants recommended in the manual.... This is ZERO changes to the engine, only changes in the rules they have been tested under for years… (https://www.scionlife.com/forums/pos...uote&p=1066693)
09-01-2006, 12:16 PM
#31
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Originally Posted by hotbox05
Originally Posted by vintage42
... The 2005 xB was rated at 108 hp and higher torque because tested on premium, vs the 2006 at 103 hp on 87.
09-01-2006, 02:14 PM
#32
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Originally Posted by vintage42
Originally Posted by hotbox05
Originally Posted by vintage42
... The 2005 xB was rated at 108 hp and higher torque because tested on premium, vs the 2006 at 103 hp on 87.
09-02-2006, 12:04 AM
#34
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I asked Scion Customer Experience if the 2006 reduced HP was due to different gas or something else, and here is the answer. Guess I will go back to regular gas 
From: Scion <scion_mail@scion.com>
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006
To: <...@insightbb.com>
Subject: Scion xB horsepower and torque [Incident: 060901-000071]
... The difference in the xB's horsepower rating from 2005 to 2006 is reflective of revised testing standards for horsepower set forth by the SAE. The engine design, engineering, and fuel used remains unchanged. The difference is due to the fact that previous testing for horsepower from engines did not include the parasitic drag associated with the operation of a power steering pump. The SAE revised their testing standards to test with a power steering pump operating with the engine.
From: Scion <scion_mail@scion.com>
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006
To: <...@insightbb.com>
Subject: Scion xB horsepower and torque [Incident: 060901-000071]
... The difference in the xB's horsepower rating from 2005 to 2006 is reflective of revised testing standards for horsepower set forth by the SAE. The engine design, engineering, and fuel used remains unchanged. The difference is due to the fact that previous testing for horsepower from engines did not include the parasitic drag associated with the operation of a power steering pump. The SAE revised their testing standards to test with a power steering pump operating with the engine.
09-02-2006, 04:54 PM
#37
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More to come...
We now know that the xB was downrated to 103 HP due to the power steering pump. Scion's answer about the 5 hp loss being caused by the power steering pump did not really answer the question of whether the knock sensor operates more often on 87 octane, and whether that further reduces power.
I have asked Scion if there is any advantage to premium if it avoids the knock sensor. When the knock sensor retards ignition timing, that reduces power.
If:
1. You have a manual transmission, which the engine management cannot downshift when it senses a knock.
2. You are using 87 octane, below which the manual says the engine management cannot prevent knocking when knocking occurs.
3. You are accelerating with full throttle a mid-range rpm, which is a condition what would cause knocking.
My question to Scion was based on the above scenario:
Compared to 87 octane gas, does premium gas avoid knocking, avoid the knock sensor's retarding the ignition advance, and thereby avoid some reduction of whatever power might be available?
Some thoughts:
1. With 87 octane gas, if the knock sensor is working, you will never hear knocking. The piezoelectric element of the sensor retards the ignition the instant it picks up the particular vibration frequency that it is looking for in the engine block.
2. Only Scion would know how much power is lost when the knock sensor comes on. It could be that the power lost is insignificant. People have said they cannot feel any more power from premium gas. Some have even said they feel less power.
We now know that the xB was downrated to 103 HP due to the power steering pump. Scion's answer about the 5 hp loss being caused by the power steering pump did not really answer the question of whether the knock sensor operates more often on 87 octane, and whether that further reduces power.
I have asked Scion if there is any advantage to premium if it avoids the knock sensor. When the knock sensor retards ignition timing, that reduces power.
If:
1. You have a manual transmission, which the engine management cannot downshift when it senses a knock.
2. You are using 87 octane, below which the manual says the engine management cannot prevent knocking when knocking occurs.
3. You are accelerating with full throttle a mid-range rpm, which is a condition what would cause knocking.
My question to Scion was based on the above scenario:
Compared to 87 octane gas, does premium gas avoid knocking, avoid the knock sensor's retarding the ignition advance, and thereby avoid some reduction of whatever power might be available?
Some thoughts:
1. With 87 octane gas, if the knock sensor is working, you will never hear knocking. The piezoelectric element of the sensor retards the ignition the instant it picks up the particular vibration frequency that it is looking for in the engine block.
2. Only Scion would know how much power is lost when the knock sensor comes on. It could be that the power lost is insignificant. People have said they cannot feel any more power from premium gas. Some have even said they feel less power.
09-03-2006, 10:33 AM
#39
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Originally Posted by vintage42
More to come...
We now know that the xB was downrated to 103 HP due to the power steering pump. Scion's answer about the 5 hp loss being caused by the power steering pump did not really answer the question of whether the knock sensor operates more often on 87 octane, and whether that further reduces power.
I have asked Scion if there is any advantage to premium if it avoids the knock sensor. When the knock sensor retards ignition timing, that reduces power.
If:
1. You have a manual transmission, which the engine management cannot downshift when it senses a knock.
2. You are using 87 octane, below which the manual says the engine management cannot prevent knocking when knocking occurs.
3. You are accelerating with full throttle a mid-range rpm, which is a condition what would cause knocking.
My question to Scion was based on the above scenario:
Compared to 87 octane gas, does premium gas avoid knocking, avoid the knock sensor's retarding the ignition advance, and thereby avoid some reduction of whatever power might be available?
Some thoughts:
1. With 87 octane gas, if the knock sensor is working, you will never hear knocking. The piezoelectric element of the sensor retards the ignition the instant it picks up the particular vibration frequency that it is looking for in the engine block.
2. Only Scion would know how much power is lost when the knock sensor comes on. It could be that the power lost is insignificant. People have said they cannot feel any more power from premium gas. Some have even said they feel less power.
We now know that the xB was downrated to 103 HP due to the power steering pump. Scion's answer about the 5 hp loss being caused by the power steering pump did not really answer the question of whether the knock sensor operates more often on 87 octane, and whether that further reduces power.
I have asked Scion if there is any advantage to premium if it avoids the knock sensor. When the knock sensor retards ignition timing, that reduces power.
If:
1. You have a manual transmission, which the engine management cannot downshift when it senses a knock.
2. You are using 87 octane, below which the manual says the engine management cannot prevent knocking when knocking occurs.
3. You are accelerating with full throttle a mid-range rpm, which is a condition what would cause knocking.
My question to Scion was based on the above scenario:
Compared to 87 octane gas, does premium gas avoid knocking, avoid the knock sensor's retarding the ignition advance, and thereby avoid some reduction of whatever power might be available?
Some thoughts:
1. With 87 octane gas, if the knock sensor is working, you will never hear knocking. The piezoelectric element of the sensor retards the ignition the instant it picks up the particular vibration frequency that it is looking for in the engine block.
2. Only Scion would know how much power is lost when the knock sensor comes on. It could be that the power lost is insignificant. People have said they cannot feel any more power from premium gas. Some have even said they feel less power.
ummm no....
04 xb's were rated at 108 hp and they have the same ps pumps as my 05 which was rated at 106 or 108 i don't exactly remember , and the same pumps as the 06's which are rated at 103.
09-03-2006, 04:25 PM
#40
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Originally Posted by hotbox05
power steering pump?
ummm no....
04 xb's were rated at 108 hp and they have the same ps pumps as my 05 which was rated at 106 or 108 i don't exactly remember , and the same pumps as the 06's which are rated at 103.
ummm no....
04 xb's were rated at 108 hp and they have the same ps pumps as my 05 which was rated at 106 or 108 i don't exactly remember , and the same pumps as the 06's which are rated at 103.
Originally Posted by vintage42
The difference is due to the fact that previous testing for horsepower from engines did not include the parasitic drag associated with the operation of a power steering pump. The SAE revised their testing standards to test with a power steering pump operating with the engine.
Hopefully the OP gets his knocking situation ironed out. This HP argument does nothing to help him.
Originally Posted by chazm
If you want to screw up your xB.....use 93 octane.