wpb2009xb

I am curious if anybody has built a non-boosted engine beyond intake and exhaust and what the potential of our little engine is. It would seem like those who did a rebuild do the oil issue may have tried at that point.

Anyone?

stenger

I want to say someone in the tc1 forums did. And the amount of money he spent to achieve good numbers, could have been duplicated reliably with just 7psi on a turbo.

bcp06tc

Yes, someone did on the tc1. He still works on his car now even.

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xseveredveganx

So what you're saying is, his car isn't reliable. Right?

bcp06tc

No, what I mean is that he still has it and tries different things from time to time. It's very reliable as far as I know.

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bcp06tc

https://www.scionlife.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=226262

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bcp06tc

https://www.scionlife.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=144394

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TrevorS

iTrader: (1)

My 2008 xB has intake and exhaust mods and I'm quite pleased with improvement over OE. Only "radical" change is probably my P&P TB (accomplished by hand/Dremel and potentially risky in accomplishment) and secondarily my SB TBS (performance with little execution risk). If there's anything that provides a respectable further step (low end torque) without a bunch of dollars, you or whoever has my attention !

wpb2009xb

Trevor, its sounds like basically what you have done is what I am researching. As far a the throttle body goes I can say that I am very reluctant to touch that as I feel that it is over my head. The rest of the intake does not seem like a big deal. I have shortened the snorkel and now have it down in the drivers wheel well behind the TRD vent. I have considered installing a "true" CAI but am skeptical about benefit vs. dollar at this point.


Can you tell me more about your "ported scuba"? How was this done and what effect did it have on power and noise.


Thank you for you input.


Thanks for the turbo input as well guys, I just feel that it is more work and money than I want to put into the project. I do have friends with factory turbos and there has been some reliability issues that scares me as well. I am sure that is more the exception than the rule though.

stenger

Reliability can be achieved with any build. The biggest part of it is maintenance, quality, little bit of luck, using the right parts, the tune, and not pushing past the parts limits.

With a turbo, if you are running 15psi on a stock block, it may hold up for a while under stock internals and a decent tune. But it's going to develop problems. Gaskets, rings, seals, even piston's. A mechanic at Endurance Motorsports (friends shop where I borrow his lifts, and lend a hand where I can) was running 30psi on a built SR20 in his Infinity G20. He ran it about 30-50K miles before he had any issues. But of course, it was properly tuned, and built with quality parts. There are others that have shown up there needing work done who were running 20-30psi using cheap parts, or racing through the gears at every chance they got and there cars were lucky to last a year.

The same can be said with NA work. You use good parts, done right (like head work and such) and do a proper tune with good maintenance it could last forever. But neglect, poor work, and abuse, you can kiss long term reliability goodbye.

TrevorS

iTrader: (1)

Recognize I'm reluctant to make changes to what appears a sturdy and torquey core power plant. That translates into the intake manifold/plenum through head exhaust ports. Everything else I consider fair game (though I'm not at all enamored of external ECU reprogramming). In my view, the single most important mod is to flow air as unobstructed as practical (volume with minimal turbulence) from the external intake to the manifold -- removal of the OE snorkel weighs heavily here. For me, part of that was P&P of my TB, but no question, that's a relatively risky step -- takes some confidence in ones skills (TB is not a cheap component to replace)! IMO, my SB TBS also had a substantial impact, would not give it up!

After that comes the exhaust system. I don't like a loud or raspy exhaust, but I'm otherwise a believer in maximizing exhaust velocity and that includes minimizing exhaust turbulence. My entire reason for porting my exhaust system (header through "scuba") was to minimize turbulence. I'm not going to claim that a particular mod made the primary difference (though header is probably most likely), but I'm of the school that every little bit helps. At absolute worst, I get the satisfaction of having gone to the trouble of including it! Only a dyno run at each step can clearly quantify changes (and even then perhaps only in aggregate). I can't afford that overhead and don't really want to put my car through the abuse and so I try to establish more round-the-town measures. I'm satisfied my intake and exhaust mods have been beneficial (certainly not harmful). However, despite much time being spent considering each, that in itself isn't a guarantee to anyone else !

Given a fairly free breathing intake and exhaust ("scuba" kept), the TB P&P had a decided impact, and so did the SB TBS. Both impacts being very different in nature, though both contributing to turbulence reduction and delivery of fuel/air charge to the cylinders. If you want serious power from these cars, the best choice is turbo. However, if you can settle for a perky performer (willing to move spryly when requested), thoughtful tweaking works !

If you have specific questions, I'll do my best (my "scuba" port was geared specifically to the Weapon-R "S"-pipe I moved to, never evaluated it for the OE "S"-pipe, though pretty sure it wouldn't hurt).

Greg S

iTrader: (1)

I'm with Trevor on the P&P throttle body. I did mine using a spare a while ago and it made a noticeable difference in throttle response. You can actually pick them up relatively cheap on eBay. I also plan on doing a port & polish job on the spare heads I have. I've got a Weapon R intake manifold on order as well so I'll see what that adds. This is all in addition to the Weapon R header, Tanabe exhaust, and eBay intake. Overall I've got some nice gains but nothing tremendous.

wpb2009xb

Thanks for the info again Trevor. I have started to research the p&p for the tb. If I were to attempt that it would be with a used one off of ebay.


Do any of the forum members offer that service?


What is the " SB TBS"?


By saying ported scuba I am thinking that you some how routed out the guts. Is that correct and if so how?


Thanks!


Thanks for your input too Greg.

stenger

You better get a piggy back ECU to tune that with. The weapon R mainfolds have been known to really throw off the A/F ratios.

Greg S

iTrader: (1)

Well crap, I'll have to look in to that then. Thanks stinger. Fortunately I already have the ability to monitor my A/F ratio real time.

TrevorS

iTrader: (1)

ScionFred was the first I'm aware of to perform a TB P&P for our cars and he prepared a DIY for it. I suggest it as your primary avenue of research ! (I'm unaware of anyone offering it as a service.)

https://www.scionlife.com/forums/sho...TB+P%26amp%3BP

TB P&P has two primary effects, one is to considerably reduce TB induced turbulence (thereby increasing air flow), the other is to more rapidly open the effective throttle opening when depressing the "gas" pedal (thereby increasing throttle response).

SB TBS is smooth bore Throttle Body Spacer. The standard ones available on the market hurt flow for most modern engines by twisting the air (adding turbulence and an annoying RPM dependent whistle), smooth bore preserves flow, allows more distance for TB turbulence to subside and is quiet. However, whether it's a good idea depends on the specific vehicle engine/IM design. I'm satisfied it works well with the 2AZ-FE and OE IM. There are two ways by which it can potentially help, reduced TB induced turbulence at the IM inlet and incrementally increased effective size of the plenum (twist design TBS also does this). If it's compatible with your setup, the net effect is to increase the air/fuel charge delivered to the cylinders -- hence increased torque (band depends on IM design).

Interestingly, the OE IM contains a resonance chamber designed to optimize runner/plenum behavior in the low to mid band region (helps torque). My impression is the SB TBS complements it.

My scuba is same as OE, clean out the innards and I'd be left with loud, raspy, and no cat -- ie. unpleasant and locally illegal. My only change was to port the inlet to make the interior diameter transition from the W-R "S"-pipe smoother for reduced turbulence -- not perfect of course, but best I could manage given the fairly shallow flange depth.

https://www.scionlife.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=202175

The usual purpose of porting is to reduce turbulence, what it basically consists of is smoothing surfaces and transitions in order to promote non-turbulent flow. Porting can become very tricky and specialized when it comes to head intake ports because what might seem a good idea can actually steal power, even a rough surface can actually be intentional and needed. But as typically applied to exhaust and intake pre-IM, it's pretty safe as long as nothing gets damaged.

Just to make certain, are you referring to a cylinder head or an exhaust header? Would love to hear how the W-R Intake manifold works out!

stenger

Well having a wide band is handy, but Toyota's "learning ECU" makes tuning life a bia! Even a super AFCII would become obsolete after like a week of using it.

TrevorS

iTrader: (1)

I agree, the Toyota/Scion learning ECU is a tremendous blessing, I just hate when I have to disconnect the battery and it has to learn my mods all over again ! Still, the fact that it can and does seems hardly less than miraculous !

stenger

It's great for small things like intakes/exhaust, but once you start getting into REAL tunes, the Toyota ECU is the worse thing in the world. If I had someone that could do real tuning, I'd buy a stand alone in a heart beat. But the only tuners I know worth a damn, can only do street tunes and don't know enough to program a stand alone.

wpb2009xb

Trevor, thanks for the detailed reply and links. It certainly apears that you have done your homework! A lot of digestion is needed on my part!