I got a kick out of that statement. I wish I was there to call him out on that....."O, you want us all to stop driving out only mode of transportation? Than give us all GM and Chrysler products that we've paid with for with our tax dollars than. Since it's much safer to drive in an American car that can't stop or steer. "

Stupid government.

And Toyota is turning into the new GM. The pedal sticking is because they used different, cheaper materials than on what they use for the Denso Pedals.
Cost cutting CTS pedal.

Beefier Denso unit.


And Toyota wants its suppliers to cut costs by 30-40%......If we're having this problem before the more cost cutting, imagine how much worse it will get afterward.
http://www.thecarconnection.com/mart...ut-costs-by-30

 

Just out of curiosity, does a 2006 xB have an electronic throttle or is it still a traditional cable linkage? I'm sure Tomas can answer this in .005 seconds.

 

The drive by wire didn't start on this motor till the Yaris and maybe the Prius. xB/Xa are all cable. I was shocked to see my Dads Yaris not have a throttle cable.

 

My Dad got the recall done on his 09 Camry, and so far he's pleased. He told me on his drive home almost all the tranny shifting issues he's been having feel like they're gone, and the car is now flying where as before it would lag and the car would feel like you hit a wall when cruising that made the car start to slowly slow down and you had to give the vehicle more throttle. He's going to be keeping an eye on it for the next few weeks but if it's still the same.

I'm bringing in my Matrix Monday to get this done. I'll see if I experience the same results.

 

bB2NER already gave the correct answer by the time I saw the question. xA and the original xB were all mechanical, not electronic throttle control.

 

It's quite funny how it works out....

Toyota tries to get cheaper materials to save a buck...Now they're gonna get stuck paying three bucks more to fix everyone's problem.

I feel sorry for Mr. Akio Toyoda. First year he becomes president; he has to deal with all of this crap. He stated during the press conference, that he will personally improve quality with a committee. This is the same man who walked onto a Michigan Toyota dealership lot and went underneath a Tundra to see the quality in 90 degrees weather while wearing a business suit. Of course, the dealer didn't know who he was. lol

I don't know if you guys have been watching Toyota's stock. Yesterday, it got down to 50-something points. Today, it got up to 75 points.

 

he is also stated a while back that they were on a backslide and could really be in trouble if not careful... well this is there Tylenol moment

 

The below is something I posted on another web forum, but I am pleased to see that my Xb has a different pedal. I just wonder if it is any better.

As for the repair video, I thought they were gluing these shims in, not just snapping them into place, so the comment in the end may not be applicable - but I thought I would leave it in, just for completeness.

Background - My day job is a design engineer for turbine components
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This is an example of really poor design, perhaps even exceeding the Triumph Bonneville broken spoke fiasco. There are a couple of things to look at on the Toyota site - this video

http://www.toyota.com/recall/videos/pedalassembly.html

Shows how this fly by wire pedal works.

Notice the "designed in" Friction device, supposed to replicate the feel of a cable operated pedal – Why?

There is also a picture showing where the pivot points are on the devices - here... (download the larger one)

http://pressroom.toyota.com/pr/tms/photo.aspx?fid=93538&id=E0C18554

The circled views are top looking down views, the ones below are side views. The whirling propeller symbol is a pivot on the friction device. It’s in the wrong place for a failsafe system.

When the pedal is pushed down and released, the V shaped grooves rub on the turning pedal pivot. Pushing down on the pedal is a trailing rub on the spring loaded friction device, not a problem. Lifting your foot off puts the rub device in a leading pattern - bad. Like twin leading shoe brakes (for us old timers)

Think of it like working a broom. Put the broom on a smooth concrete floor and pulling the broom backwards over the floor is easy. Pushing it forward is a bit harder... the forward push is similar to the pedal being released - Leading friction arm.

Now say that wear debris and moisture have changed the concrete floor to carpet. Pulling the broom back (=pushing the pedal down) is still fairly easy. Pushing the broom forward on carpet, it ain't happening (= releasing the pedal)

That’s why it sticks

To make matters worse they use tapered edges which enhances the friction and jamming effect - just like a morse taper on a machine tool spindle.

What about the shim???
It is supposed to limit the amount the wedges self jam.
Have you ever tried to glue anything to plastic??? Hard isn't it!!
What do you think the chances of a mechanic with oily hands has of being able to successfully stick that shim to a piece of plastic that is meant to be slippery.

My recommended fix??!!??!!??

Cut the friction arm off. We don’t need no stinking friction arms!

Rich

P.S. I hope the denso vesion is not designed on the same principle.

 

As an old tired, er, REtired engineer, I agree with you, Rich.

The angles and materials in the CTS designed pedal assembly are questionable at best (and have empirically proven to be a poor choice to the tune of about $2 Billion loss to Toyota).

While some drag/friction is needed in the pedal assembly, due not just to the insensitivity of the foot (poor proprioception) in position sensing, but also due to the variable stiffness of outer protection (shoes/socks) that is worn on the foot that further dampens what little accurate feel might exist, the reversed design of the drag component in the pedal assembly is at first glance frightening.

The self-tightening action is exactly the opposite of what logic would demand.

Thanks for the links and the comments!

 

Except not having similar friction to a standard pedal would mean that people would hate the system even more. An issue with electrically operated items in these applications is that it is very easy to under modulate your foot motion and cause jerky reactions on the throttle. Some of that can be programmed out in a system, but after a point the damping in the program causes the throttle to respond properly in other situations. So the pedal needs to have enough friction to help with this. A cable operated system has that built in from the get go. The feel feedback of the throttle is important to the way the system works.

I do agree, however that they need to have a different means of going about it, but a friction (and not just a non-constant spring.. needs to be a fairly consistent frictional force) device makes for better human interface.



EDIT: Apparently Tomas and I were typing the same thing

 

Great info going on here. Thanks Thomas for all the work and insight. I got caught up in a similar thread in the off topic section and missed this one. I too can remember the Audi deal, even the Pinto deal.

I think a lot of the problem may not be so much crappy parts, but more like subcontracting parts out of house and quality control missing an issue. Especially in both the manufacture of that part, and Toyota for not checking their work. If a simple shim is the fix, then clearly who ever made this part and was responsible for the QC and or testing dropped the ball big time.

I would hate to think CTS knew of this problem, possibly even "forgot" this parts installation. I am not going to say the word company sabotage, but the timing of breaking the legs of the worlds biggest car manufacture sure is right on.

I would like to see the media focus a little more on CTS then Toyota right now, but I don't think that will happen.

 

Well CTS was building the pedal according to Toyota's design. Toyota was looking to penny pinch and they went after the pedal. You can clearly see how much more beefier the Denso unit is from the pix I posted earlier. I would be persuaded to believe it was inferior American manufacturing if the pedal was the exact same design as the Denso unit.

 

Toyota provides the specifications the assembly needs to meet, the manufacturer designs the details of the assembly to meet the specs and to match their manufacturing processes.

The goal of the assembly sub-contractor is to make the assembly as inexpensively as possible and still meet the spec in order to secure the contract (low bid) and maximize profit.

If you follow any of the links that have been provided to the CTS site, with a minimum of poking around you will find that they do their own design to meet the car manufactures specs, and that they are proud of their design expertise.

This does not eliminate Toyota's responsibility for final approval of the CTS design, nor for the QC part of the job, making certain that the devices made by CTS meet Toyota quality standards. Toyota need to take more control of the QC and depend less on what CTS claims.

 

Good point. The thing is how often or even at all, does the subcontracting company need to submit changes in the part contracted to build? Example: A worker determines the piece (they now put in to remedy the problem) was not necessary for what ever reason. The company agrees in house to omit that piece and cuts it manufacturing and assembly costs in doing so. Are they required or would they even bother telling Toyota of the change?

Or what if it was the working on something and running out of materials situation. We've all been there and what do you do? You start improvising. I can only imagine the same thing only worse when you have 100 plus workers sitting around with no materials to complete a job.

It just appears very strange how quick they new exactly what was needed to make the pedal function. A simple piece of metal the size of a wheel weight. Not much to anyone but a company who could increase profits by eliminating it.

Just thinking out loud here, no conspiracy theories...

 

I'm sure they will from now forward. Tomas

 

Tomas's post 53 is right on.
They are called Source Control drawings. Toyota would produce a drawing showing the size & space the pedal fits into and probably has a sperate spec describing how it functions and the electrical outputs required and how long it is supposed to last... and perhaps even the smell !!! Have to have that new car smell!

CTS then would come up with the design and it can be completely different to the Denso pedal except that it would bolt right in place and have the same electrical output. Those would be the interface dimensions.

I have an 09Xb with the Denso pedal. I'm interested to know what the insides look like, but not enough to take it apart... need to surf, someone has probably done that somewhere.

I'm tired of designing also. It's more of sweating the details that others in more glorious positions choose not to deal with. They are too busy money juggling to sweat the small (but ever so important) stuff. 5 years to go, and counting.
Rich

 

Well that surfing didn't take long, found this site for the 2 pedals
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/exc...s/#more-343512

They focused on friction in the bearings, but that isn't it.
The Denso pedal appears to have a sandwich type of friction device. This is better than the leading arm V grooves in the CTS design.

The sandwich device will give the same friction wheather you are pressing down or releasing. With no self jamming tendancy.

I feel better now

Although I do like the design on my motorbikes, which have 2 cables. One to pull the throttle plates open and the other to pull them closed. Can't get more failsafe than that - but hard to do on a foot pedal.

 

Rich, my post 53 is just a restatement of my post 19 https://www.scionlife.com/forums/sho...4&postcount=19 for those who missed it there.

Thanks for the link to the TTAC article. Even though they were focusing on the totally wrong area of the assembly for the problem, the views of the interiors of the Denso and CTS units explained a lot. I would love to be able to see 'em / handle 'em in person, but that would be just for my own curiosity.

 

Consumers Are Shockingly Uninterested In Buying A Toyota Right Now

http://consumerist.com/2010/02/consu...right-now.html

 

Toyota's new logo?





In all seriousness though this could really hurt the company with the additional Prius recall and possible Corolla recall.