tc vs 2000 honda civic si [Archive]

killerxromances

10-01-2005, 07:52 PM

^ ^
I've seen first hand a civic Si with coilovers, i/h/e vs a TC with coilovers, i/h/e and short shifter. Three races, and the TC lost all three. Both were good drivers, the TC can take the Si off the line for the fact all honda motors are geared towards high rev so they are tq and hpless until higher rpm.

So i disbelieve stock vs stock the Tc can win when i've seen three races of similar mods, similar drivers. If it is true, than thats good for the tc. However, the 06' Si vs. thread needs to be locked if it hasn't already.

Aside from all of this, Autocross is where its at. Si would definitely take a TC there. The weight of the TC, and how its geared, and how the stock suspension is set up its not a good autocrosser. Even modified, i haven't seen a good run for a TC yet. I was disapointed.

Cya

-Keith-

10-01-2005, 07:54 PM

Sorry I have a 5sp with just no muffler and I have beaten si's with intake header and exhaust.

How u figure the ep has more hp? did u look at its wieght

Fahrenheit

10-01-2005, 08:00 PM

I'd also have to go tC (and not due to owner-bias, either). Sure the Si has 160hp, but it also is only producing about 6 lb-ft of torque (ok, so it's actually 111 lb-ft, but you get my point).

killerxromances

10-01-2005, 08:03 PM

Fahrenheit

10-01-2005, 08:09 PM

^ ^
However, the 06' Si vs. thread needs to be locked if it hasn't already.

Cya

I was really surprised to read this month's Car and Driver to find that the '06 Si was putting down numbers relatively close to the tC.... 0-60 in 7.3 seconds, compared to 7.4 seconds achieved in the tC by the same mag. This might be due to the fact that even with the increased horsepower, the Si is STILL only putting down 139 lb-ft of torque and is within a couple hundred pounds of the tC's weight.

Don't get me wrong... I am intrigued as hell by the new Si, especially the helical LSD which will reduce wheelspin in cornering (should make auto-x interesting), but it's no automatic tC killer. Let's see some mods and some good drivers. Should be fun...

killerxromances

10-01-2005, 08:10 PM

2000 Civic Si:
2,612lbs
160hp
1/4 stock 15.1
2005 Scion Tc
2,905
160hp
1/4 stock 15.8

Do i need to say more?

Cya

Fahrenheit

10-01-2005, 08:11 PM

Actually just wondering i looked it up:
2000 Civic Si:
2,612lbs
160hp
1/4 stock 15.1
2,905
160hp
1/4 stock 15.8

Do i need to say more?

Cya

Source?

peteyd

10-01-2005, 08:12 PM

actually when street fire comes back up ill post of a vid of a tC beating a 04 si but there servers are down right now so cant help the argument but the tC does win 3x

killerxromances

10-01-2005, 08:14 PM

killerxromances

10-01-2005, 08:17 PM

actually when street fire comes back up ill post of a vid of a tC beating a 04 si but there servers are down right now so cant help the argument but the tC does win 3x

I'd like to see that. What were the mods for both cars? because i listed the mods of that tc si race and the si took it all three times, with exact same mods and the tc had a short shifter, makes a slight difference the si did not. not to mention it was a 03'...and the 03'-04' is exact same car... interesting.

peteyd

10-01-2005, 08:22 PM

i dunno what the mods were.....but as soon as the server is back up ill post it i didnt believe it either that a tC could take out the SI, but once i looked at it stock number wise a MT could do but it would be close, but as soon as the server is back up ill post.

Fahrenheit

10-01-2005, 08:23 PM

"Driver skill" is going to play a big part in this race, too. Bear in mind that something like 85% of American drivers rate their own skill as "above average" or "excellent."

ack154

10-01-2005, 11:23 PM

Moved to Autosports...

BTW... a friend of mine has an 01 or so Si and I usually beat him at AutoX with my tC.

killerxromances

10-01-2005, 11:27 PM

i've beaten a tc, civic lx, civic hatch with B16 swap, and a mazda3 in autocross. TC guy couldn't keep it in the corners, i suppose because of the weight dist. Others i beat by 2-8 seconds. Mazda3 (wagon) was a friend of mine and its stock except tint. It was a fun day though.

Back to original content: I stated the facts that the 2000 Si Ran 15.1 1/4 and the TC runs 15.8 1/4. Stock for stock, the TC cannot beat the Si with equal strength drivers. With equal mods, such as i/h/e...as long as both cars had the same mods i don't see how it would make any difference. The SI should still win so long as both have the same bolt ons, or whatever. Now if the tc had i/h/e and the Si just had say exhaust, then i could see the Tc winning but it would be probably close. I know the TC can take it off the line, but not in the end.

Cya

-Keith-

10-02-2005, 12:51 AM

-Keith-

10-02-2005, 12:52 AM

As for autox alls I got to say is I autox.... I beat sti's funnest thing in the world! But I mean once they learn to drive the autox they will rape u!

spyguy

10-02-2005, 03:26 AM

I just saw a commercial for the si... it said it was 190HP... just fyi.

killerxromances

10-02-2005, 03:37 AM

Huh 2000 si is no way in hell 180 or 185... its a b16 its 160 sorry!!!!!!!!!! And I was talking ep thats the 2003. But I have raced a 2000 stock to stock to see what happen yea he wins he weights less, and yea better gearing. But hes got less tork and 4th gear I did gain back some. Its still a close butt race.

As for the muffler I saw the thread with 5whp gain and 5 tq with no muffler so I just did it to see if it was true... I get my zpi exhaust today! Ill have it on for Elk Grove it looks like!

Uh, i said two times above if you would have read instead of being an ***. "2000 Civic Si 160hp 2605lbs 1/4 15.1" Please pay attention before you comment on my posts, thank you. (not intending to be a jerk, but you came accross that way to me.)

The new Si is rated at 197hp. However, Honda/Toyota/Nissan understand the complications in horsepower numbers for insurance purposes. A guy at honda i have been talking to said that management recieved actual dyno runs from a 2006 Civic Si and it dynoed at 179.3whp. Which means at the crank it would be in the range of 205hp. Not 197hp. However, they play it to 197 for insurance. Yes, those little numbers make a difference in cost apparently.

Cya

-Keith-

10-02-2005, 04:10 AM

Sorry I have a 5sp with just no muffler and I have beaten si's with intake header and exhaust.

How u figure the ep has more hp? did u look at its wieght

First, why aren't you running a muffler? "The top end" gains? Second, what year Si? That makes a huge difference. Those races of the Si and TC the Si was a 2003. The TC is freaking heavy for its class and for what it is. That year Si is also heavy for its class but not as heavy.

Si for a 2000 like this thread is asking i beleive was rated at what, 185? 180? Just say 180. You are rated at 160. Most stock Tcs dyno in around 139-142 for the manual. The Si stock for the 2000 generally run in the 150 range. I dont know exact numbers for the 2000 off the top of my head, but 150whp sounds about right. Just say 150. Thats a few extra whp right there. The 2000 wasn't ultra light weight, but defintely not 2,900 pounds. I think it was around 2,750 something like that. That plus the gearing makes a big difference.

Cya
I was quoting that so please dont be a jerk

As for whp if I remember right its only 137 stock on avg.

I use to build hondas.... We have a Eg hatch with a b18c5 with just titanium retianers and springs with ctr intake cam. Took the pee shooter muffler off (its a dx) and ran a 12.83 on slicks.... Yea we know how to tune... Remember its a dx so on the header coming back is stock dx exhaust. Its the everyday sleeper....

killerxromances

10-02-2005, 04:30 AM

I know you were quoting a previous post of mine. But i also posted two others saying 160hp. Thats why i reacted the way. I apologize for coming strong, but im sure you can understand.

I had built a 97' integra gs-r all motor before i bought my xb. I probably don't have as much experience with honda as you do, but i also came from honda. Still work with honda motors because my friend has a 98' integra i help her work with so its all fun.

But to get back to original post, you admited you lost stock for stock to a si. My posts were saying the TC couldn't beat a 2000 Si. So that proves, stock for stock, the Tc can't beat an Si with similar drivers and mods.

I've seen a 03' si race a 04' tc, lost all three times with same mods as stated before. So thats two people that have actually raced or witnessed my statement to be true. The TC can win if the Si isn't as good of a driver.. Or than that, Si wins this.

Cya

TimmyT

10-02-2005, 04:34 AM

killerxromances

10-02-2005, 04:43 AM

-Keith-

10-02-2005, 04:53 AM

killerxromances

10-02-2005, 04:53 AM

2005 civic Si

http://automobiles.honda.com/models/specifications_full_specs.asp?ModelName=Civic+Si&Category=2

http://www.scion.com/showroom/tc/features/

Both are sources from the respective manufacture

as you can see the weight is about 110 lbs difference with the tC having the torque advantage and same HP, BUT it hits power band earlier than the civic Si, Weight distrubution is the same, Suspension is the same.... So based on the numbers the exact same driver would do better in a tC. Also note the 160 hp from the civic Si is 160 @ 6500 rpm with a redline of 6800 rpm, the tC is 160 hp @ 5700 rpm with a redline of 6200 rpm. So the tC has a lil more room to play in max hp compared to the Civic Si. So 2005 vic si vs. 2005 tC is tC all the way. The tC also will get more gains mod for mod vs. the 2005 vic Si. The 2006 si should weigh pretty close to the same weight as the tC, probably around the same weight as an RSX-S, with the larger transmission and larger engine. With the tC still having the torque advantage, but the Si still has the HP advantage. And will most definitly cost around 23gs, Supercharged tC will still have the torque advantage, they will both weigh close, and the tC will hit powerband earlier... and still cost less. Advantage supercharged tC > Civic Si. Civic Si > NA tC

Also we are talking about the 2000, not the 2005. They are two different Si's with different motors and so on.
Plus, similar weight a 05' Si weighs 2,782. The TC weighs what, 2,900? Although the numbers are close, they really aren't. Every pound does matter. With driver, with a 200lbs guy the Si stays below 3K while the TC goes in the 3K. Now i aggree with everything else however like i said before, 03' Si vs. 05' TC Si won three times. Simliar mods and everything. Only difference was the TC had a short shifter and Si did not. The gearing of the Si really helps it pull hard once it hits vtec and stays within vtec. The Si has the torque advantage at a low rpm. Which is why the TC does beat it off the line in most cases.

But if you want to compare the 05' Si vs. 05' TC stock for stock. Honestly, the Si will still win just not off the line with same driver skill and so forth.

Cya

killerxromances

10-02-2005, 04:55 AM

-Keith-

10-02-2005, 04:58 AM

killerxromances

10-02-2005, 05:03 AM

[quote=TimmyT]

But if you want to compare the 05' Si vs. 05' TC stock for stock. Honestly, the Si will still win just not off the line with same driver skill and so forth.

Cya

No way... our 4th and 5th is geared better. I pull on Si's in 4th on the highway.

I raced one had me by half a car coming out of third hit 4th and pass...

I mean whatever to each his own... Im in cali maybe our smog polution makes the car go faster... :rofl:

Well if you are going for top speed yeah, the TC has the advantage. But 1/4 i would think stock for stock the Si would be able to take the Tc..as far as below 06'. The new ones, as you said.. No way.

Cya

TimmyT

10-02-2005, 05:07 AM

killerxromances

10-02-2005, 05:12 AM

lol dont bring forced induction into until u have the nubmers for it for the car... every cars gonna react different!!!

Also yes a tc will lose to a 99 -01 Civic Si
As for the 02-05 I dont think so....

As for the 06 people dont even try ur gonna get ur butt handed to u.

This is all stock vs stock

Each car responds to mods differently... i/h/e on a civic might get more gains then a tc, but f/i at low boost might respond better to the tc motors.... Everythings a trade off. And driver is seriously 95% of it... when it comes to same mods on cars that are evenly matched.

Okay. Like YOU said this is ALL stock vs stock. So a factory supercharged tC is not stock? And if you want to go FURTHER with this debate. the '06 Si isn't even close to being the same cost of a n/a tC from the factory. So if you can get a FI tC from the factory for around 21 g... Is it unfair to compare the two? Each car responds to mods differently yes.. BUT given the specifications of the 2az-fe to the '05 si. its plain to see wich has more potential and wich would respond better to modifications. tC has a larger bore and stroke thanks to the larger engine, a lower compression ratio and stout internals.

The Supercharger is an option..not a given. On one hand you are correct, being its a factory option you can get it off the lot. Well, will be a factory option. However, i also said a boosted vs a n/a is unfair given both are 4cyl cars. The 06' Si is what im concerned about has much more potiental than in the past. To me a stock car isn't adding a factory supercharger. its stock, n/a 4cyl. Sorry if that confused you, i know some think because the s/c is a factory option, its still stock. When it comes n/a, and you add the s/c. Its no longer stock, no matter where it came from.. IMO.

Cya

TimmyT

10-02-2005, 05:15 AM

^ ^

Not to be rude, i just don't get why you TCers always say "well with the TRD s/c we can beat this N/A car". Although it is probably true you could beat the Si with the S/c, why would anyone race a S/C'd TC with a stock Si. Its not a fair race.

IMO: Fair is similar mods given the car. For instance: S/C'd TC vs. Turbo'd Si running same boost. Like 6psi for example. Thats fair in the sense they are both boosted and both are running same PSI levels. When you talk about running, i don't get why you feel the need to compare cost of car vs. performance of car.

If the Si cost $20K. TC cost just say $17K. Thats it. Stock vs. Stock. Don't boost the TC for sake of "evening out the cost level". Because when in comes down to performance, Boost vs. N/A on two 4banger cars isn't exactly a "fair race".

Thats just my .02 cents. I do know what you mean and why you would think that, i just don't think its fair to think that...lol if that makes sense..

Cya

Not true. I know a boosted 2000 vic si with 210 whp.. @ 6psi.... While a boosted tC @ 6 psi is runnin above 220 whp with more ft/lb.

As for the boosted vs. NA. I thought the theme of this thread is stock vs stock. If the vic doesn't come boosted stock then I guess they shoulda spent thier 20+ k on a boosted tC from the factory.

TimmyT

10-02-2005, 05:20 AM

I've also stated in these tC vs. threads that comparing lift to non-lift cars isn't fair either.. So what exactly is your point. You want to do some lift/lift comparrisons, how bout 2003+ celica GTS vs 06 Si. While the Si still has the HP advantage (not much) the gt-S definitly has the wieght advantage. and both cars will probably be running similar ft/lb.

killerxromances

10-02-2005, 05:31 AM

TimmyT

10-02-2005, 05:44 AM

I am getting this from the results from the turbo kits out there. zpi stage 0 @ 6.5 was running well above 220 whp.
Yes the '00 Vic Si has a front mount Intercooler as well (I say this cause the stage 0 that did above 220 whp had a FMIC and you want fair)
I said if you can get a tC from the factory boosted (Wich clearly implies an option). So yah made a bad buy when you purchased your vic si for well above 20k and a S/C factory OPTION (happy now?) tC add you to its kill list. Life is a cycle of trial and error i guess.

Anyone who went to Scion Nights saw the S/C tC with the FACTORY OPTION, and No not dealer option even though a dealer might order one on thier own to sell, You can still order one on-line and add it there so FACTORY OPTION (Yes i am here only to please) So its not a pipe dream and I am pretty sure it will be available around the same time the vic is. (Honda has it posted as available for purchase in December)

killerxromances

10-02-2005, 05:49 AM

killerxromances

10-02-2005, 05:51 AM

Decemeber 5th for the Si...The Supercharger should be out in a matter of a month. From what i hear they are taking orders at dealerships now.

Cya

TimmyT

10-02-2005, 06:01 AM

Also the vic Si isn't a STOCK civic if you are using that methodology. Cause the Si is a TRIM. the STOCK Vic would have to be the DX then. And in this case of stock vs. Stock the TC wins hands down. Cause you CAN buy a new DX and fit in the new SI tranny and engine in it..... SO whats stock now?

One of the major complaints about the scion division of Toy corp. is the lack of trim levels for thier car.. So if they made the S/C tC a Trim would it then be a "Stock tC"?

Honda motors Don't love boost. Honda motors are already running High compression ratios, and everyone knows when you want to add PSI the lower the compression ratio the better

There are Insanely impressive honda motors out there... But they are all modified to be able to handle those numbers. What I am saying about the 2az-fe is that on stock internals it is running almost high 11s.... So wich 4 banger honda with stock internals are running those numbers?

miraclecreator

10-02-2005, 06:18 AM

killerxromances wrote:
^ ^

Not to be rude, i just don't get why you TCers always say "well with the TRD s/c we can beat this N/A car". Although it is probably true you could beat the Si with the S/c, why would anyone race a S/C'd TC with a stock Si. Its not a fair race.

IMO: Fair is similar mods given the car. For instance: S/C'd TC vs. Turbo'd Si running same boost. Like 6psi for example. Thats fair in the sense they are both boosted and both are running same PSI levels. When you talk about running, i don't get why you feel the need to compare cost of car vs. performance of car.

If the Si cost $20K. TC cost just say $17K. Thats it. Stock vs. Stock. Don't boost the TC for sake of "evening out the cost level". Because when in comes down to performance, Boost vs. N/A on two 4banger cars isn't exactly a "fair race".

Thats just my .02 cents. I do know what you mean and why you would think that, i just don't think its fair to think that...lol if that makes sense..

Cya

Well... how's 190hp vs. 160hp fair then huh? I'd say the last generation of Si (160hp) vs. the tC is fair.

miraclecreator

10-02-2005, 06:22 AM

and if you think the tC has more torque and it's no fair and such and such.. Then when it finally becomes fair, both cars will be running EQUALLY no matter what and it's NO FUN. That's why we have the aftermarket parts or accessories offered by dealerships to modify our rides to see who can do better. It's a matter of who can modify better with the sources available to them.

GoSwim

10-02-2005, 06:49 AM

The cars in question are a stock 2000 Civic SI vs Scion tC. Some people just don't read and are posting info. on the EP SI instead of the EK. It's a drivers race.

-Keith-

10-02-2005, 08:44 AM

lol dont bring forced induction into until u have the nubmers for it for the car... every cars gonna react different!!!

Also yes a tc will lose to a 99 -01 Civic Si
As for the 02-05 I dont think so....

As for the 06 people dont even try ur gonna get ur butt handed to u.

This is all stock vs stock

Each car responds to mods differently... i/h/e on a civic might get more gains then a tc, but f/i at low boost might respond better to the tc motors.... Everythings a trade off. And driver is seriously 95% of it... when it comes to same mods on cars that are evenly matched.

Okay. Like YOU said this is ALL stock vs stock. So a factory supercharged tC is not stock? And if you want to go FURTHER with this debate. the '06 Si isn't even close to being the same cost of a n/a tC from the factory. So if you can get a FI tC from the factory for around 21 g... Is it unfair to compare the two? Each car responds to mods differently yes.. BUT given the specifications of the 2az-fe to the '05 si. its plain to see wich has more potential and wich would respond better to modifications. tC has a larger bore and stroke thanks to the larger engine, a lower compression ratio and stout internals.

I dont think your getting what im saying here...

One you cant say the si's dont have potential.... I got a friend boosting 8 lbs on his 03 si he runs 12's.... so please dont try and play the potential card.... cuz honda has and always will have potential....

-Keith-

10-02-2005, 08:50 AM

The cars in question are a stock 2000 Civic SI vs Scion tC. Some people just don't read and are posting info. on the EP SI instead of the EK. It's a drivers race.

THE EK SI vs tC is not a drivers race. stock to stock EK SI will WIN Go look up the EK SI 1/4 mile times please....

baileyw813

10-02-2005, 06:47 PM

Blah blah... I traded in my 2000 SI for my tC. I enjoy driving both... and the gas mileage is way better on the SI (was getting around 32 mpg every tank... but I actually enjoy driving the tC more. As far as "beating" it... in a 1/4 mile I've lost to my buddy in his 99 SI twice and won once... he tho has parada spec2 tires... a lot stickier than my POS BFG stock tires. I tend to churp to full out "burn" thru first gear. Once i replace these cheap a$$ tires. I'm sure we'll go again. I'll be sure to post vids and get some 1/4 mile slips.

(ps: yes i do have some mods, so I guess I wont fall into your "stock vs. stock" but he has the same mods... cai/CAT back exhaust/17inch rims w/paradas)

AND... as much of a Honda fan as I am... you would think the new SI coming out with its 197 hp would do a lot better than .1 second quicker to 60... but that's just me?? 7.3 NEW SI... 7.4 2005 tC

and here's the link if you all are gonna be like "WHERE's the source?!?" haha
New SI (http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=19&article_id=9974&page_number=2)

My one jealous thing about the new Si is the LSD :-( Wish we had one.... grrr... oh well.

And as for the 1/4 mile times for the 99-2000 Si says 0-60 7.2 and 1/4: 15.7 same as 2005 tC...Car and Driver observed 1/4
1/4 mile times (http://www.albeedigital.com/supercoupe/articles/0-60times.html)

metalranger33

10-02-2005, 07:53 PM

racing a new si is like racing a rsx-s we lose both times

baileyw813

10-03-2005, 12:44 AM

You would think so.... but the new Si... even with the 37 hp improvement over the 99-2000 Si is actually slower to 60 than the 1.6 DOHC from before... makes ya go HMMMM....

killerxromances

10-03-2005, 02:36 AM

killerxromances

10-03-2005, 02:40 AM

Also, some of you are just picking words i've said and mixing it around. "Fair" doesn't mean numbers have to be a match, obviously. I never said. So don't put words in my mouth.

Stock TC vs Stock Civic Si is fair when you compare it to a F/I Tc vs STOCK Si. Some of you are trying so hard to prove a point you aren't making sense at all.

Everyone that has actually ready fully my comments, know what i mean. So try re-reading before you post "Well hows 190hp vs 160hp fair".... :loser:

Cya

EDIT: Not intended to insult anyone..But get with the program people.

kungpaosamuraiii

10-03-2005, 03:13 AM

I would say fair is price vs price. A 20,000 dollar tC vs a 20,000 dollar Si .. I think winner may be the tC.

But if we're talking about buying a used 2000 Si vs a brand new tC, the 20,000 dollar Si has it hands down. This past Si is t3h suck and marks a blotch on Si history (as far as I'm concerned.)

In anycase, the Si is a performance oriented car while the touring coupe known as the tC is a touring coupe with a sporty flair. Advantage, I think, goes to Si.

But I still like the tC better.

TimmyT

10-03-2005, 08:28 AM

You totally missed the entire reasoning behind The scion brand not having trim levels. Its so each respective buyer can customize thier vehicle with the options they want. If Honda were to do that with the Vic. It would be like "I want the larger K engine, but I can do with out the SI seats blah blah blah interior stuff. For the buyer to Pay for what they want, and not to have to pay for a Trim wich includes parts they really don't want. So as far as I am concerned. ANYTHING from the factory options on a Scion is STOCK. and the stock S/C tC is a good match for the Stock Si.

killerxromances

10-04-2005, 01:39 AM

[quote="TimmyT"]You totally missed the entire reasoning behind The scion brand not having trim levels. Its so each respective buyer can customize thier vehicle with the options they want. If Honda were to do that with the Vic. It would be like "I want the larger K engine, but I can do with out the SI seats blah blah blah interior stuff. For the buyer to Pay for what they want, and not to have to pay for a Trim wich includes parts they really don't want. So as far as I am concerned. ANYTHING from the factory options on a Scion is STOCK. and the stock S/C tC is a good match for the Stock Si.[/quote

:rofl: :rofl: Was i talking about Scion? No, i was talking about honda. The motor stock is N/A 2.4L. Correct? Correct. TRD Supercharger added on becomes a boosted motor. Nevermind the car. Stock=N/A With TRD Supercharger = Boosted. Therefore, its not stock. :lalala:

Also, For the 2000 Si i have seen every review run 15.2-15.5 seconds 1/4. With the TC, its always 15.8+. So with that, for the 2000 Si it wouldn't be impossible to beat it with a Tc. However, very unlikely with equal drivers.

:silly: Cya

killerxromances

10-04-2005, 01:54 AM

Now i agree, a boosted Tc vs. new Si would be a good match. However, i still stand behind. Boosted vs Boosted N/a vs N/a when you are talking about two very alike yet very different cars.

Of course if this was a corvette vs. a boosted Tc that would make it more of a "fair" run. Although it wouldn't be the TRD s/c that would make that a fun race. :P

But as this was originally about, Stock for Stock. A n/a motor boosted is not stock. Regardless of who puts out the S/C or T/C. I'm sorry you disagree with me but its fact.

Cya

TimmyT

10-04-2005, 05:28 AM

kungpaosamuraiii

10-04-2005, 05:51 AM

Honestly, you aren't making very much sense.

If a 300C is a stock car than why isn't a Civic Si?

The Si is a factory performance car. It isn't built into the Si at the port or anything close to that. Stock doesn't mean standard so much as from the factory. Standard is.. standard.

The s/c doesn't come standard but the 2AZ does come standard with the tC. THe Si comes standard with the K20A. I don't see where you are getting your ideas.

I can't even mount a proper discussion because I can't even understand your point!

Would you consider a Camry XLE a stock car? Would it be fair to compare a Camry XLE to an Accord V6 (non ex) turbo? Actually, is the V6 camry or Accord even stock?

hahaitzskippy

10-04-2005, 06:27 AM

http://automobiles.honda.com/models/specifications_full_specs.asp?ModelName=Civic+Si&Category=ALL

ya i found the same and + i know about the ep3.

yes it has shorter gears but a higher top speed do to the 7 rpm redline.

statistically the cars are pretty much even. the TC putting more pwoer to the wheels and more TQ but has extra weight to cancel the affect.

the EP3 has VTEC but there VTEC valves are only on teh intake and not the exhaust portion which is why the car is so under powered.

i use to go out to teh races.

i've beaten SI's they have beaten me. there are to many factors in deciding who is teh winner but all i know is the winner is no more than 5ft ahead. from personal experience

killerxromances

10-04-2005, 06:30 AM

Listen Kid. So a S/C tC isn't stock. Cause in this case stock means Standard. NOW i am forced to repeat myself. If Stock means standard.. then a Civic Si isn't stock, because it doesn't have the STANDARD equipment of a Civic. The Civic Si is a Trim of the civic. Even the term Stock car. revolves around the chasis. I can get yah a definition if you would like.So it is completely fair to compare the S/C tC to a Civic SI, because they are still in the same category of vehicle. There are plenty of vehicles that have F/I counterparts that are stock. For one.. You have the 2005 Mustang Saleen n/a, and the Supercharged Saleen. Now I consider both of those vehicles stock. There is the Hemi Magnum.. and the regular magnum. I consider them BOTH stock because nothing aftermarket was done to either of those vehicles out of the factory. There is the 300 series.. and the C being a Hemi. They are all stock, cause they all maintain OEM parts. Grow up.

I'm glad you are forced to repeat yourself, because now i have to. Civic Si is what we are comparing the TC to. The Civic Si is the performance version of the Civic, yes. However, a stock Civic Si means: No aftermarket mods. Now, Scion Tc Stock: No Aftermarket Mods, No TRD s/c. Why no S/C? Just because its available through TRD does not mean it automatically goes in the "stock" catagory. The 2az in stock form, as i've said probably five times already, is not supercharged. Therefore, adding any sort of boost or spray cannot be counted as "stock".
Would you consider a greddy turbocharged Tc stock? Of course not. The only difference between that and the TRD Supercharger is the fact Toyota their name on it. ONLY difference. Just because Toyota puts their name on it, does not mean its stock. Stock means from the factory. Civic Si is from the factory. We aren't talking about "standard civic vs. standard tc".

I'm surprised they haven't locked the thread yet. But because we are keeping it in the "topic" they probably wont. Which is cool, i have no problem with it...Gives me something to do. :yawn:

Learn the difference between Standard and Stock and we can continue our debate!

Cya

killerxromances

10-04-2005, 06:37 AM

peteyd

10-04-2005, 04:55 PM

As promised here is the video of the tC beating the 03 SI

http://videos.streetfire.net/Player.aspx?fileid=A41F1563-3B22-406C-ABEC-19B34890A31A&term=scion&p=0

Dont ask me what the mods are on the tC because i do not know if there are any and it says the SI is stock

killerxromances

10-04-2005, 05:39 PM

Good video. Although, a modded Tc vs stock Si its now clear as to why the tc won.

The races i saw with the si and tc, both were modded the same and the si took it. So i would guess if the si had some mods it would be a different video. Maybe not, but i know what i've seen compared to the video.

The Tc and the Si are so close that if you mod one, and not the other, its almost a given that the moded car will win. Even though stock for stock, the si does have the advantage. The Tc is right behind it with the tq advantage.

I still say stock for stock, Si has it. Mod for mod, si still wins. But good video never the less!! Thanks.

Cya

peteyd

10-04-2005, 05:42 PM

killerxromances

10-04-2005, 05:46 PM

I'm sorry man, stock for stock the si does have the advantage. You have the low end advantage, but the Si will catch up and win unless its a 0-whatever. Since after 4th gear the Si starts losing its will to fight.

I posted the 2000 Si specs, which is what this forum is supposed to be about. With equal drivers, the si should clearly win. .7 second difference in 1/4 is a fairly big difference. Enough to state that the Si would clearly win.

Cya

hahaitzskippy

10-05-2005, 12:42 AM

hahah

the guy who drives that TC is on this forum so hopefully you can ask him when he comes around. i forgot his name though

killerxromances

10-05-2005, 03:18 AM

hahah

the guy who drives that TC is on this forum so hopefully you can ask him when he comes around. i forgot his name though

Yeah, that would be cool. I'm interested in what he has.

Cya

kocho333

10-08-2005, 07:56 AM

after readin 3 pages of facts and this and that...ima go find a stock SI..(im stock) and run him and ill tell u who wins...i think thatll work a lil better than jus comparing facts, and one racers experience

killerxromances

10-09-2005, 12:55 AM

Go for it, i'd like to see what happens..Video it if possible..

I know it would be difficult to find a stock 2000 civic since thats what started this thread, but oh well. Theres tons of 02'-04' stock vics..

Good luck!!

Cya

TimmyT

10-09-2005, 02:15 AM

There are plenty of stock Toyota Vehicles that have Superchargers manufactured by TRD... the TRD supercharger is a factory option and not an aftermarket option. So Tell me again Why isn't a Supercharged tC stock?
As for the samurai guy. Stock refers to the chasis. The SI and the civic DX share the same chasis. Wich makes the SI a trim of the DX.. wich is pretty much a set package of options and parts they throw on the chasis.
That post was debating the meaning/opinion of Stock. WICH I once again am forced to ask. if the SC tC was set as a different trim as a NA tC would it be then considered stock?
I made a conditional statement. if stock means standard then a civic sI isn't stock. because the standard of a civic is the DX. The entire push behind the scion brand is customization. so they don't have trims. they have a car, a blank canvas if you will, and then they give you options to personalize and make the car your own. Scion could easily just slap on a s/c with the trd exhaust, springs, shocks, short shifter, ground effects, and set it as a trim for the tC and charge 25 k for it. but that takes away from the way they are marketing the vehicles with personalization. So they give you the car and say "This is what we have you can put on it." And as for putting the car together at a port.. Many cars are manufactured over seas and then assembled in country.... for delivery purposes and to reduce shipping costs. So my argument isn't wether or not the civic SI is stock. But why isn't a SuperCharged tC stock? Now the hontards are gonna scream "Cause its forced induction!" and whine something about not being fair. But the fact of the matter is. It is a factory option and not a dealer option, although technically it is a 3rd party manufactured part (technically) it is legally an OEM part in all states so for my part at least thats good enough to consider a S/C tC a stock vehicle and perfectly fair to compare to a 06' civic si

killerxromances

10-09-2005, 05:19 AM

brian

10-10-2005, 12:53 AM

from a roll, the si will be faster. i've raced my friends si and it's pretty close, but he pulls a tiny bit. it's pretty close, but from what i've seen, he'll take the lead in the end.

TimmyT

10-10-2005, 06:24 PM

killerxromances

10-11-2005, 01:42 AM

1. K tell me what you think stock is.
2. The TRD s/c is not aftermarket. Wich i keep trying to tell you but you can't get it through you head. You can have the s/c in the tC before it hits any dealer lot.

1. Stock- Since we are talking mostly about motors, i will specify. Stock motor: A motor that came from the manufacture as is. No aftermarket add ons. This was very breif because most of us already know what stock means.

2. You can order the Tc with the S/c yes, but that doesn't automatically mean the car is stock with the s/c. TRD is a Toyota specific aftermarket with a warranty on almost every part TRD produces. Although TRD is a Toyota-based manufacture, the whole point of TRD is to have the aftermarket, but with warranty advantage. That was the whole idea when TRD first started. It was so you can still keep your warranty and have a well made part available through dealerships and the factory.

As i've stated numerous freaking times, the 2az is built and produced as a naturally aspirated motor. If the 2az had a supercharger platform, and the Tc had the s/c'd 2az, than yes, it would then become stock. However, it doesn't. Its a TRD option just like you have the ZPI option. And as i've stated atleast once before, the only difference is Toyota backs up the part with TRD whereas they don't with ZPI.

Cya

TimmyT

10-11-2005, 02:09 AM

killerxromances

10-11-2005, 02:14 AM

K here is after-market for yah

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=after-market

Now it says previous purchase. So if you purchase the car with the s/c. its not aftermarket. TRD makes many parts for toyota vehicles as an option. But since you are a fanboi and makes your hondas look like what they are. You want to scream that its aftermarket and not fair.

i know what aftermarket is. If you purchase a car that is built and designed, and carries the s/c than yes its stock. however, the Tc does not. TRD just offers it. How about you find a way to debate where i don't have to spend time correcting you the entire time.

The Tc does not come supercharged. If there was a Tc-s and that model was supercharged, than the tc-s would be stock. However, its just a TC and it comes naturally aspirated.

Cya

killerxromances

10-11-2005, 02:19 AM

Also, while im at it..

You can't buy the TC with the supercharger on it. You buy the Tc and order the supercharger. If both come in at the same time, they put it on all at once. Which, IMO you are a moron for putting boost on a n/a motor without breaking it in but people do it all the time..whatever.

Point of this is: You don't buy the Tc already boosted. You buy the TC, and then boost it regardless of TRD or not. You order both seperately but have the convinence of keeping warranty and having it added to monthly payments because again, Toyota has their name on it.

:lalala:

TimmyT

10-11-2005, 02:33 AM

killerxromances

10-11-2005, 02:45 AM

are you whacko? Or did you just not read the post on WHY there are no trims in the scion brand? the 2az is built with stout internals already. Wich has been tried and proven. TRD/Toyota didn't build the 2az around supercharging. They built the supercharger around the 2az..

So if you know what after-market is (supposedly) why did you call the TRD supercharger for the tC when clearly by definition it isn't.

You have no idea what the 2az is capable of, and if you knew anything about the tC you would know that it on stock internals it can handle 10+ psi. Wich is why they even bothered in developing a supercharger for the engine as a FACTORY OPTION. So your argument is "Toyota didn't throw on the letter "S" on the end of the "tC" so its not stock" By your reasoning the TRD exhaust on a tC is aftermarket and no longer makes the tC "Stock" By your reasoning the TRD shocks/struts and springs are aftermarket and no longer make the tC "Stock". OR What about the short-shifter? Yah by your reasoning the tC is no longer "Stock" OR what about the Wheel and Tire upgrade? Stock? Gasp.. maybe not. My tC is by no means stock. OR What about when/if TRD releases thier air-intake for the tC... yah not stock right. You are a fanboi plain and simple. If toyota didn't offer the Super charger or any of the other modifications from the factory I would agree on the entire after-market/stock issue. But to Look down and turn your nose up at the scion brand cause they don't off trims? The scion tC and other scion vehicles have already made the honda line up look like overpriced tonka toys (wich they are) and the Civic Si is a direct attempt to redeem themselves. The scion tC has nothing to prove. the Civic Si does. and from specs on it right now. It is doing a lowsy job.
The Civic Si is still boasting a whopping 130 hp at 6,200 rpms and 197 hp at 7000 rpms if i remember correctly. THe current Civic Si has the same torque numbers and weighs less. The 197 HP is nice I'll give the civic that. But it needs all that power up high to make up for the low end.

Your post make absolutely no sense... The 2az has tons of poteintal, however that statement has nothing to do with anything on this particular thread..Maybe a TC power hungery thread yeah.. Civic Si has something prove? Afraid not, the Si has proved itself year after year that its very mod friendly and can produce an incredible amount of whp with forced induction especially. Yes, its extremely top end friendly and low end not so much, but thats how honda designs their motors to begin with. If you knew what you were talking about, you would have already knew this.

The Tc still has lots to prove in long term situations because its still very new. Theres only a handful of boosted Tc's still therefore its still new to the game. Also, your arguement of 10psi..Sorry, the TRD s/cer is rated around 6psi if i'm not mistaken. It only puts down around 200whp. Wow, its proven itself with that. If you wanted to show what the 2az is made of, look at what ZPI has done or other turbos. Not some 6psi 200whp figures. What does scion and no trim levels have to do with anything in this discussion. The fact they don't have trim levels is the whole point, a stock TC has no boost or any aftermarket goodies. Because it doesn't have trim levels is all proven my words about the TRD s/c'd 2az not stock vs. your arguement of stock because omg, Toyota put their name on it. :rofl: Thats the most ridiculous and one track minded comment i've ever heard of.

All turbos and superchargers designed for a specific motor are built around the motor, so that comment was also useless. I was also using the "Tc-S" as an example of a level TC with a stock supercharger. AKA: tC that comes direct from the port with a supercharger, built with a supercharger, and ready to go as a boosted 2.4l.

All i have to say is...Know what you are talking about before you post..seriously.

Cya :silly:

TimmyT

10-11-2005, 03:01 AM

killerxromances

10-11-2005, 03:18 AM

YOU SIR are whacko, that or you just can't read. No where did I state that the TRD Supercharger was 10 psi. I Stated that the 2az has been proven to handle in excess of 10psi boost wich is why toyota even bothered developing a supercharger for the car. You have no idea what you are talking about and you want to know how i know? Cause the TRD supercharger isn't rated at 200whp And where do you think they add the supercharger? Not at the dealer. Not at your uncles shop. You have no idea what you are talking about and as for me knowing crap about honda engines. WTF are you talking about? I posted the information and I don't know about honda engines? Its exactly why I Don't like hondas and Would take a nissan or toyota over one anyday.
and Yes toyota does have thier name on the parts. BUT thats not the argument. The argument is you get the car from the FACTORY with those options. They are not dealer options nor are they aftermarket.
AND YES the Civic does have something to prove, because of all the civics you mentioned that proven themeselves. the Scion tC thoroughly put the smack down on each and everyone of them through value and performance.

Um, as far as everything i've read from TRD, the supercharger is added at the dealership. Otherwise it takes away from the "blank canvas" you love repeating oh so much.
"You have no idea what the 2az is capable of, and if you knew anything about the tC you would know that it on stock internals it can handle 10+ psi. Wich is why they even bothered in developing a supercharger for the engine as a FACTORY OPTION." That comment right there makes it sound like you imply TRD being 10psi.

FYI: TRD developed the supercharger because they know it could sell, not based off powergains. If it was strictly for the fact of powergains, it would be putting down more than 200whp. And yes, the TRD is rated at 200whp from every artical i've read. Its something like 220hp, which would put it at the wheels around 200.

Infact, someone posted from a show a trd tC and the sticker showed 200whp with the information on it. Which is why theres been so many post on here about people not wanting to the get the TRD because they don't want to pay $3k for something that only puts out so much whp, when same price, they get get much more. Again, Toyota being considerate because they have their name on it.

And yes, you don't know anything about honda if you claim the Si has to prove something. Honda has proven itself in general with the aftermarket, know your place with the tC.

Toyota has their name on it isn't an arguemnt? Then quit saying because its a factory option its stock. Jesus man. A boosted 2az isn't stock for the last time.

TimmyT

10-11-2005, 05:24 AM

killerxromances

10-11-2005, 05:27 AM

Um they are added at the dealership for the tC's already purchased. Now that is released you will be able to add it on when you build your own scion from the website. And YES a boosted 2az is stock. Its a Modified 2az, but there is nothing aftermarket on it if you add the TRD supercharger on it. And in no way did the statement imply anything about the TRD supercharger being 10 psi.

Its a Modified 2az, but there is nothing aftermarket on it if you add the TRD supercharger on it.

You said it yourself. Its a modified 2az, therefore its not stock. Thank you my god you finally realized it! WOW.

EDIT: You can also purchase TRD springs from the "build a scion" thing, however ALL parts ordered from "build a scion" are put on at the dealership. Not before hand.

RE-EDIT: TRD S/C claims 7psi according to TRDsparks, and delivers up to 25% increase in power which puts it right at 200whp.

TimmyT

10-11-2005, 05:33 AM

killerxromances

10-11-2005, 05:40 AM

So wrong. Well here is a link that disproves your mis informed person about the TRD Supercharger #s
http://www.scionlife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=83834&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=trd+supercharger&start=75

And From what I have been told they are assembled at port and then transfered to the dealer.

Thats helps your cause none.

lol..
$3,200 for 200hp? thats only roughly 175-180whp.. And what do you know, 7psi. Wow, you didn't prove me wrong at all except making a fool out of yourself.. Well that, and proving its even lower output hp than what i was thinking.

Also, i highly doubt they are assembled at the port. Scion never assembles any "accessories" at the port, and TRD is toyota, not just the tC so its not logical.

Even if they were, it doesn't prove your point that it was "stock". You slipped and you said "modified 2az". A modified motor is not stock. A five year old can understand that one.

So, your point was??

EDIT: The sticker also states about warranty information. It says, "installed by dealership", and installed "by anyone other than dealership".

It is not installed at the port, :rofl: . Yeah, you completely proved me wrong.

TimmyT

10-11-2005, 05:47 AM

Moron really. Now you are tyring to say you didn't say the TRD supercharged tC was rated at 200 whp and you are now trying to cover that up by laughing at the high price for the charger. Wich everyone knows and the horse has been beaten post mortim. Dealerships don't assemble vehicles. Sorry but you are way off on that one. First of all its not cost effective especially with the SCION marketing wich you have NO idea about. Pure pricing = no dealer markup. So dealerships pay an average of $75 dollars an hour in labor for thier mechanics so they can install options they are not allowed to mark up..... Dealers get COMPLETE cars either via Customer ordering, or Dealership ordering.

As for the dealership installation, or a 3rd party installation. What part of YOU CAN ORDER THIS PART SEPERATLY don't you understand? 2004 and 2005 tCs did not have the option of the TRD Supercharger. does this mean they can not purchase one? NO Does this mean they don't qualify for a toyota licensed and installed component? NO. Geez man do some homework. maybe some of your honda buddies can help yah.

killerxromances

10-11-2005, 05:51 AM

Moron really. Now you are tyring to say you didn't say the TRD supercharged tC was rated at 200 whp and you are now trying to cover that up by laughing at the high price for the charger. Wich everyone knows and the horse has been beaten post mortim. Dealerships don't assemble vehicles. Sorry but you are way off on that one. First of all its not cost effective especially with the SCION marketing wich you have NO idea about. Pure pricing = no dealer markup. So dealerships pay an average of $75 dollars an hour in labor for thier mechanics so they can install options they are not allowed to mark up..... Dealers get COMPLETE cars either via Customer ordering, or Dealership ordering.

1. I quote, "Well that, and proving its even lower output hp than what i was thinking.
" Therefore, i was not covering it up. I admited i was wrong about the hp gains.
2. I never said once dealerships assemble vehicles. However, they do install and will be installing the TRD s/c on the 2az. Theres a huge difference.
3. Everything you said just now, theres barely any truth to it aside from something you could pick up on a scion catalog. So i'm totally a moron.

TimmyT

10-11-2005, 05:59 AM

killerxromances

10-11-2005, 06:05 AM

So Dealerships dont average 75 bucks an hour on labor.. So its not costeffective to pay that wage on items they can not mark up. Yes dealerships will be installing the Supercharger on the vehicles of the owners who did not have this option available to them.

Modified 2az. Yes i did say modified, but its not aftermarket modified. OEM parts = stock.

1. You know absolutely nothing about what you are talking about.
2. They will be installing ALL s/cers from past and future buyers.
3. This debate is pointless. Its like debating with a newborn. It's not even debating, your post contradict with each other, your "facts" aren't facts at all and when i prove you wrong you find something else to go around.

This thread should be locked, its pointless. Si vs. Tc stock, most seem to agree Si takes it. Until someone actually runs stock for stock no one will know the truth.

Cya

TimmyT

10-11-2005, 06:23 AM

None of my post contradict themselves and I challenge you to find one that does. And its evident from your previous posts and information that anything from you is un-reliable. Where in these posts did i give out poor information or anything that did anything but contradict your opinon. And I also challenge you to find any one of your post that proved me wrong with any facts other than your opinion. I have proven you wrong with Definitions from other sources and pictures. And I totally agree. Performance the SI wins over the NA tC. but in value the NA tC still takes the SI and the Supercharged tC takes the SI in performance and value. Then You go off on a tangent and go on this stock or not babble. Wich you haven't done anything to prove other than your opinion.

furn4ce

10-15-2005, 03:54 AM

si tC

ignitionr34

10-27-2005, 03:37 AM

tc si

TheQuietThings

10-27-2005, 05:20 AM

tC by a long shot. anyone care to debate?

dachmo

10-27-2005, 06:10 AM

tC by a long shot. anyone care to debate?
^
^
^
^
^

I have a cold air and the TRD exhaust.
My friend had a stock si with goodyear eagle f1's.

He launched better than me obviously, only ahead by about 4-5 feet. as soon as I got traction Si = pwned.

The guy he was with actually asked if he was flooring it......he was :silly:

ignitionr34

10-27-2005, 05:53 PM

i heard that they dyno around 100 lbs of torque at the wheels. does ny one know if this is for sure true?

senseiturtle

10-27-2005, 08:39 PM

www.ephatch.com

killerxromances

10-27-2005, 11:23 PM

Stock and stock:
2000 Si vs Tc = Si
2001-2005 Si vs. Tc = Drivers race, Si slight advantage
2006 Si vs tC = Don't even try.

Cya

ignitionr34

10-28-2005, 06:23 AM

killerxromances

10-28-2005, 10:45 PM

Stock and stock:
2000 Si vs Tc = Si
2001-2005 Si vs. Tc = Drivers race, Si slight advantage
2006 Si vs tC = Don't even try.

Cya

00 si would not kill a tc. r u kidding me?? my friends stock ep raced and 00 si and that was pretty much a drivers race. and this was ona role... ep would of had advantage from dig cuase it has a lot more torque
http://www.aempower.com/pdf/dyno/21-417%202000%20Si%20CAS.pdf#search='2000%20civic%20si%20dyno'
check that out it shows that the basline dyno of 00 si is 98 lb feet of torques.. sure it might slightly edge againts on highway cuase its lighter and it has good top end but in a real race from a dig... tc should beat it in a quarter mile

00 Si would not kill a tc, but it would win. Si does 1/4 in 15.2, Tc does 1/4 in 15.7 +. Si has has more top end, after 1st gear it stays within the powerband. So i would say, driver for driver, Si would win. The facts have been posted on this thread numerous times by myself and a few others. Most agree that the Tc will lose to a 2000 and a 2006 (obviously) Si. The 2001-2005 is questionable. Driver for Driver that Si would win by slightly, Tc could win by slightly.

Cya

ignitionr34

11-01-2005, 07:09 AM

monkix626

11-01-2005, 07:43 AM

lets end dis-.- any stock tc...vs my stock 01 honda prelude..-.-

killerxromances

11-02-2005, 02:41 AM

there have been posts where people said they've beaten si's too.... and u can't just give a distinct time for each one.... many people have taken the tc's to the track and ran quartermile times from 15.2-15.9... same w/ all the car magazines that road tested the tc....i'm 100 percent sure not all 00 honda civic si's ran 15.2, they all probably around the same range as a tc, and maybe even worse... so you should stop not picking on certain numbers for each car.... well i guess the only way to prove this is somone showin a video of both cars racing from a dig till like 80 or 100.... if someone can post up a video.. (i will if i can find an 00 si to race).. then this thread will end all discussions about the two.

Show me a stock tC that runs 15.2 1/4. I've seen a really good driver, with a tC dropped, short shifter and SRI run 15.5. The best review i have seen for the tC stock, was 15.6 1/4. Also, no, not all si's run 15.2, it depends on the driver. if they are horrible, the 00 si will run 17's. However, average i've seen posted (i've seen tons, not just one or two) was between 15.2-15.6 1/4 stock. For the tC 15.6-16.2 average. Going by average since most people fall in these times.

Cya

bLAziN_cHEnGy

11-02-2005, 03:19 AM

Actually just wondering i looked it up:
2000 Civic Si:
2,612lbs
160hp
1/4 stock 15.1
2,905
160hp
1/4 stock 15.8

Do i need to say more?

Cya

Source?

Look it up on yahoo or google. As for the weight, old honda pages for the 2000 Si.

Umm out of all your posts. (killerxromances)..I dont think you know anything about cars...15.1 qtr mile for a stock 2000 si??...whooa I know a stock si can not even hang with an integra type-R which runs 14.7 at best...lolz...I think the 2000 si's run 16.1's all day because even at the tracks they run 16's all day...Ive seen tC's run mid 15's...Ive ran mine and I ran 15.7 (tC manual stock) constantly...lolz...I murder all year si's as long as theyre basically stock or has i/h/e...

killerxromances

11-02-2005, 03:23 AM

bLAziN_cHEnGy

11-02-2005, 03:28 AM

killerxromances what car do you drive???

bLAziN_cHEnGy

11-02-2005, 03:30 AM

oh nvm u drive an xB lol...no wonder u know nothing about racing

bLAziN_cHEnGy

11-02-2005, 03:33 AM

killerxromances

11-02-2005, 03:46 AM

oh nvm u drive an xB lol...no wonder u know nothing about racing

:rofl: 1. I came from honda. I own'd a 97' Integra n/a putting 231whp. Yes, i know nothing about racing and tuning.

You are completely ignorant. The tC at best can pull 15.4 1/4 stock. You're 15.7 is not "mid 15s" its in the middle of mid and high 15s. The 00' Si as tested by serveral car mags was 15.2-15.4 1/4. Its power, gearing and light weight did that. You are probably confusing the 2000 coupe with the current hatch. Oh wait, you are much smarter than me i must envy you. :loser:

Lets get something else straight. The USDM (acura) tegra type r was not that great from the factory. 1/4 mile runs range between 14.8-15.1 1/4 times. I believe car and driver had tested theirs at 14.8. So, lets go with 14.8 vs. 15.2. Thats a big enough difference to notice stock for stock. The biggest advantage of the type-r was the handling and 8krpm redline it had. Big, big deal back in 2000. So to answer your question, no the 2000 Si couldn't exactly hang with the 00' type r. But it could in first gear and after that the type-r would slowly pull from the si.

Learn something before posting again. Let me guess, since you don't appear to own a scion, you might be buying a tC since you made the Xb comment? Wow, impressive. Over weight nice coupe, not a performance car. Good job insulting me. Please, humor me more.

Cya

killerxromances

11-02-2005, 03:48 AM

let me see...u can get all the facts u want from google or yahoo...there is no way a stock si runs close to a 15.1...Ill even give them i/h/e and they cant even touch low 15's...I like 2000 si's but theyre no way that fast...my tC ran 15.638 best all stock and Ive raced many si's at the track with i/e...havent lost to any...when youre talking about knowing facts, the magazines are off...Learn from experience kiddo...

I am learning from experience. Set aside mag reviews, i have also posted a few times with you now that i have seen personally. I have several car friends with hondas. Infact, i may be going to honda next year. Most of my experience is with honda motors. How you speak and what you say explain everything to me.

Cya

killerxromances

11-02-2005, 03:50 AM

So you do own a tc. And you are putting me down for owning a xb? Priceless.

bLAziN_cHEnGy

11-02-2005, 04:01 AM

bLAziN_cHEnGy

11-02-2005, 04:05 AM

killerxromances

11-02-2005, 04:10 AM

lol 104 whp...231 whp acura???...and youre 19 yrs old???...mommy and daddy bought it for you...lol...its still BULL....15.1 qtr lol...claim what you want...and besides...type-R integra kills civic si (doesnt matter which year) by 2 cars at the end of the qtr mile...and if 2 cars at the end of qtr mile is only .4 seconds going at speeds of only 90-100 mph then oOpsS im so wrong, the si's are 15 sec flat cars....its getting pointless...stop reading magazines and go out and try racing, that is if you have enough HP...lolzzz

1. Mom and dad does not make payments on this car, nor did they pay for anything on my last car. Thank you.
2. 104whp hahahha. Your funny. Big numbers doesn't mean your faster. I've beaten a stock tc (auto). I run 16.4 1/4. Also, straight line racing is boring. Autocross is where its at and i've beaten several cars that had twice if not more than twice the whp i have. Also, another thing thanks to your ignorance. I have been to the tracks several times, i have raced several times and i have tons of friends who do go to the tracks on a regular schdule. I claim from experience. There is no way with a equal driver you killed a 2000 civic si. Maybe the heavier, slower most recent model.

Also, hate to break it to you. But no, a acura type-r doesn't kill a civic si. Also, those 15.2 times you love repeating so much. Thats at BEST. Average is between 15.2-15.4 maybe 15.5 with a bad launch and not so good at shifting.

You assume way to freaking much. You are one sided, one tracked which leads to ignorance.

Cya

bLAziN_cHEnGy

11-02-2005, 04:15 AM

killerxromances

11-02-2005, 04:15 AM

lol and yes i own a tC...pay monthly for it also...$400 a month that is...and yes I pay every penny...and I only put you down because you use your resources (magazines and online sites,google etc. to determine which car is faster lol)...but theres no hate here...I always love to debate like this for fun...atleast you own a scion and I respect u for that

1. I pay, every dime on my car. Mods and payments of $274 a month. Every month thank you. Sorry to hear that its hard for you to believe a 19 yr old could have a well paying job.
2. I repeat, once again. I speak from experience as well. Not google nor yahoo, nor any other resources. The only thing i posted was car mags because they did the testing and if i would have said something about times. Like 80% of the people on here, "wheres your resources"

No hate? You are ignorantly assuming every little thing about me when you know absolutely nothing about me...And obviously nothing about what you are talking about.

Cya

bLAziN_cHEnGy

11-02-2005, 04:15 AM

killerxromances

11-02-2005, 04:17 AM

nice comments....lol....last Ive seen in a tuner magazine they took 6-7 best drivers and ran a stock 2000 si coupe (BLUE)...they ran qtr mile and best time was 16 flat...now im using your resources...lemme find a link or something that tells the time of a civic si 2000 coupe...

Again assuming all im doing is looking through mags, not even realizing i have years of experience with tuning, building, and racing hondas.

:loser:

Also. Go look online. I don't care if you send me a link showing a si running 17 flat. A bad driver a good car isn't going to be fast. Period. I know from experience, a si stock can run 15.2-15.4 1/4. And i know, from experience a tC can run 15.6 (maybe)- 16.4 1/4.

bLAziN_cHEnGy

11-02-2005, 04:46 AM

killerxromances

11-02-2005, 04:51 AM

yrs of experience when youre the same age as me...19...lol...Even I dont have yrs and yrs of experience from tuning cars...I only used to steal 2000 si's (dont feel as fast as my stoc 06 tC) and teg GSR's and 98 white type-R's when I was a peddling thugged out kiddo...now Ive matured and relaxed...its the end of conversation for me....victory is yours....see you around bro...

I never said years and years. I first started learning about cars and being shown how to tune since age 14 by a friends dad who has done it for 30+ years. 5 years under my belt. 3.5 of self tuning so forth. Thugged? lol. If that means you believe im thug, ask anyone thats actually met me... I don't believe in victory when it comes to threads, however i will say this. I know for a fact what i've seen and what i've experienced.

Cya

CatalepsicFox

11-02-2005, 05:10 AM

another thing about Honda's manual... they have good whp

bLAziN_cHEnGy

11-02-2005, 05:17 AM

well romance guy i didnt mean to come at you in the wrong way...its just that I still disagree on the civic thing but it aint no biggie...seeya around bro

killerxromances

11-02-2005, 05:22 AM

another thing about Honda's manual... they have good whp

lol.. all i have to say is that was random...

Cya

monkix626

11-02-2005, 09:13 AM

:yawn: was gonna get a tc myself..but changed my mind-.- it is a nice car..but after all the stuff i heard..i came to a conclusion that it was cheaply made.. hm...back to the issue..about the si vs tc....hm...thier about even..if anything...si would win by a little. i hate the fact that alot of tc driver think they are hot ____...plz do not rev at me when u see me on the high way hah...-.- that is about all i have to say..if there is any stock tc that wants to go at it with my 01 honda prelude...let me kno :yawn:

Diluvium

11-03-2005, 03:56 AM

i usually go to

www.ModernRacer.com

they run their own tests and reviews... gotta love the truth

senseiturtle

11-03-2005, 05:02 PM

aarontrini85

11-03-2005, 08:42 PM

aarontrini85

11-03-2005, 08:45 PM

just noticed this is about the 2000 si ewwww b16 lol the couple of ppl i know with these cars did a b18 swap almost as soon as they got the car the car

not like its a crappy car but i meen its got no tourqe

ignitionr34

11-03-2005, 11:06 PM

killerxromances

11-04-2005, 03:00 AM

I'm going to agree with blazin... EM1s and EP3's are actually about equal in terms of performance... both being high 15's cars right from the factory.

While the EM1 is lighter, the EP3 makes more torque. I would also like to point out that the k20a3 responds better to mods, with full-bolton/hondata guys running as low as 14.3's in the 1/4. Hang out with the ephatch.com guys, they'll happily point that out.

If you heartedly believe that a stock EM1 can put down a 15.1 / 15.2, then we'll have to just agree to disagree. The b16 isn't that great of a motor, if you ask me. I'd much rather work with a b18c or H series.

yeah my friend, J D M, is on that site also... i 've also drove my other friend's turboed (also in ephatch, name is chris) ep yesterday ... and all i gotta say is, dammmn that thing fast.

K or H series IMO are the best build ups. B18 is alright, theres a lot of aftermarket for sure. But, meh.

I have seen, with my own two eyes, a civic si run low 15's with just a short shifter. I'm sure with an average driver, it would run mid-to high 15s if not low 16s with a horrible start. The 00' Si with driver im est. to be 1900lbs even. Based on powertrain loss, est. whp would be 140. Just give those two in the example. Power to weight is only 13.5. Of course, lighter driver or a few things removed changes that drastically. But, lets just keep at that.

Power to weight si = 13.5 (realistic est.)
Power to weight tc = 22.1 (realistic est.) -based on a 140whp and 3100lbs including driver.

Theres a huge difference with numbers there. A really good driver in a tC can pull 15.7 1/4. Yes, the 2az has more tq. However, the 00' si is much lighter, better power to weight, geared slightly more aggressive, and is pretty quick once it gets into vtec and stays within max power band.

Point is, it isn't impossible for the Si to run lower 15's with a good driver. I know, i've seen it happen. A decent driver should pull mid 15s maybe towards the high like 15.7. A okay driver will be a little higher than that so on, so forth. Without a good driver, any number is possible. A bad driver in a enzo could pull 15sec 1/4.

But if no one understands my point, or agrees with what im saying. Good for you. Its pointless to argue when i've seen it done so i know what im talking about.

Cya

aarontrini85

11-04-2005, 11:43 AM

hahaha you curb weight for the 00 si is off by a little that might be the weight after stripping the ____ out of it but Curb Weight : 2606 lbs is what is listed one every website i found and with my budy carlos in his and a sub it cam out to over 2800 lbs so yeah not a light as you thought

senseiturtle

11-04-2005, 04:51 PM

Yeah dude... the only honda (other than a bike) that's close to 1900 lbs would be a gutted 1990 CRX.

EM1's are certainly 2600 lbs at a minimum.

However, I did find something with your proposed "13.6 wt/hp " ratio.

2004 350Z
wt: 3464
avg. est. whp : 253
power:weight --- 13.6

1/4 mile - 13.8-14.2, depending on driver. I've got a friend that was pulling 14.0x here in south louisiana... at 95% humidity and 85+ degrees.

Obviously, a long way off from your 2000 civic si.

killerxromances

11-04-2005, 05:36 PM

I cant believe i posted 1900. I was tired, and a little drunk. Sorry. Just to save myself, i did post early in this thread that the weight was 2606 or 2626..Forgot which one i said. *smacks myself*

The power to weight on the Si is roughly 19.6, in that area. Its still better than the tC, and i still know it can be done low 15's quarter.

Also, the CRX if im not mistaken is right under 2klbs. Its definitely one of if not the lightest honda has put out. I'm willing to say the lightest.

Wow, i still can't believe i said 1900 and didn't catch that..I will make that the last time i get drunk and post on scionlife. :lalala: :yawn: :rofl:

Cya

aarontrini85

11-04-2005, 10:28 PM

crx si's weighed in at 2100lbs and they are my dream car with a turbo b18c5 making about 275hp man that would be so sweet and scary to drive at the same time lol

killerxromances

11-04-2005, 11:08 PM

hahaitzskippy

11-06-2005, 07:43 AM

hahah its nice to see that this thread is no longer a battle and fighting frenzie between the SI and TC

haha good times

aarontrini85

11-06-2005, 02:52 PM

killerxromances

11-06-2005, 08:39 PM

aarontrini85

11-07-2005, 01:50 PM

crx si's weighed in at 2100lbs and they are my dream car with a turbo b18c5 making about 275hp man that would be so sweet and scary to drive at the same time lol

I know of a guy who has a crx in georgia with a spoon kit. Its pretty sick, fast. Close ratio five speed is pretty fun as well. I dont know the numbers hes pulling but i think its in the range of 205-210whp @ 8,300rpm (raised redline to 9,200rpm)

Cya

man that must be a fun toy its like a crotch rocket (well not as fast lol) just whipit all over the road and through turns with that kind of power it has to be high 13's correct??

His best time was in the low 13s, 13.3 i believe. But his common number is 13.7 and his autocross times are incredible. Average time in his class was 98secs and his average is 93secs. It feels like a crotch rocket, although its not THAT fast. The car is set up for autocross, but he does take it to the 1/4 probably once every two months. His daily driver is a 03' civic si with a 9psi turbo. Its pretty fast as well, but after riding in the crx the si doesn't compare at all. His wife owns a 95 del sol Si that he is trying to get her to agree letting him play with it.. Maybe one day. :pray: :rofl:

Cya

hahaha good luck with your wifes del sol try and shove a h22 in there and post up pics when its done

killerxromances

11-07-2005, 08:35 PM

aarontrini85

11-07-2005, 08:52 PM

ahhh a k20 swap what a pain in the ___ lol but im sure its worth it and as far as a turbo best to stay awy since the only place to mount it is under the car witch isnt bad excpet you get road salt all over it and the intake can suck up water see http://www.ststurbo.com for more info on that style of turbo

but either way the rear mount is what were doing on my buddys grand prix gtp were dumping the pos stock super charger just need a couple more things including new wire for our welder lol and then we start this masive project

Jimmy

01-01-2006, 12:13 AM

i've taken a stock 2002 rsx type-s 3 out of 4 times in my stock tc

launched at 3k rpm, got a good launch. lead 1st, 2nd and on through the middle of 3rd gear... not sure if thats 1/4 mile

killerxromances

01-01-2006, 12:55 AM

Jimmy

01-01-2006, 04:42 PM

Ltrain

01-01-2006, 04:55 PM

i've taken a stock 2002 rsx type-s 3 out of 4 times in my stock tc

launched at 3k rpm, got a good launch. lead 1st, 2nd and on through the middle of 3rd gear... not sure if thats 1/4 mile
if u didnt reach 4th gear then that deffinately wasnt a 1/4 mile not even close mabye 1/8

Ltrain

01-01-2006, 06:24 PM

i was wondering which car would win?
bench racing sux dood... race and find out

killerxromances

01-02-2006, 01:30 AM

i've taken a stock 2002 rsx type-s 3 out of 4 times in my stock tc

launched at 3k rpm, got a good launch. lead 1st, 2nd and on through the middle of 3rd gear... not sure if thats 1/4 mile

Sure you did. Either he/she was a bad driver or you lost 3-4 or 4-4 times.
i have taken does not mean i lost...

Yes, i know what you said and i'm saying you are full of it, unless you have mods not listed on your profile. Again, if thats all the mods you have either they were a bad driver, or you are lying and you actually lost 3-4 or even 4-4, or this never even took place.

ignitionr34

01-07-2006, 07:45 AM

i'm not surprised if you tied or beat n rsx through 1st and 2nd gear.... but once the type s hits 3rd (its power gear) ... buh bye

Jimmy

01-08-2006, 01:07 AM

killerxromances

01-08-2006, 11:26 AM