spyguy

I just saw a commercial for the si... it said it was 190HP... just fyi.

killerxromances

Uh, i said two times above if you would have read instead of being an ***. "2000 Civic Si 160hp 2605lbs 1/4 15.1" Please pay attention before you comment on my posts, thank you. (not intending to be a jerk, but you came accross that way to me.)

The new Si is rated at 197hp. However, Honda/Toyota/Nissan understand the complications in horsepower numbers for insurance purposes. A guy at honda i have been talking to said that management recieved actual dyno runs from a 2006 Civic Si and it dynoed at 179.3whp. Which means at the crank it would be in the range of 205hp. Not 197hp. However, they play it to 197 for insurance. Yes, those little numbers make a difference in cost apparently.

Cya

-Keith-

I was quoting that so please dont be a jerk

As for whp if I remember right its only 137 stock on avg.

I use to build hondas.... We have a Eg hatch with a b18c5 with just titanium retianers and springs with ctr intake cam. Took the pee shooter muffler off (its a dx) and ran a 12.83 on slicks.... Yea we know how to tune... Remember its a dx so on the header coming back is stock dx exhaust. Its the everyday sleeper....

killerxromances

I know you were quoting a previous post of mine. But i also posted two others saying 160hp. Thats why i reacted the way. I apologize for coming strong, but im sure you can understand.

I had built a 97' integra gs-r all motor before i bought my xb. I probably don't have as much experience with honda as you do, but i also came from honda. Still work with honda motors because my friend has a 98' integra i help her work with so its all fun.

But to get back to original post, you admited you lost stock for stock to a si. My posts were saying the TC couldn't beat a 2000 Si. So that proves, stock for stock, the Tc can't beat an Si with similar drivers and mods.

I've seen a 03' si race a 04' tc, lost all three times with same mods as stated before. So thats two people that have actually raced or witnessed my statement to be true. The TC can win if the Si isn't as good of a driver.. Or than that, Si wins this.

Cya

TimmyT

2005 civic Si

http://automobiles.honda.com/models/...+Si&Category=2

http://www.scion.com/showroom/tc/features/

Both are sources from the respective manufacture

as you can see the weight is about 110 lbs difference with the tC having the torque advantage and same HP, BUT it hits power band earlier than the civic Si, Weight distrubution is the same, Suspension is the same.... So based on the numbers the exact same driver would do better in a tC. Also note the 160 hp from the civic Si is 160 @ 6500 rpm with a redline of 6800 rpm, the tC is 160 hp @ 5700 rpm with a redline of 6200 rpm. So the tC has a lil more room to play in max hp compared to the Civic Si. So 2005 vic si vs. 2005 tC is tC all the way. The tC also will get more gains mod for mod vs. the 2005 vic Si. The 2006 si should weigh pretty close to the same weight as the tC, probably around the same weight as an RSX-S, with the larger transmission and larger engine. With the tC still having the torque advantage, but the Si still has the HP advantage. And will most definitly cost around 23gs, Supercharged tC will still have the torque advantage, they will both weigh close, and the tC will hit powerband earlier... and still cost less. Advantage supercharged tC > Civic Si. Civic Si > NA tC

killerxromances

^ ^

Not to be rude, i just don't get why you TCers always say "well with the TRD s/c we can beat this N/A car". Although it is probably true you could beat the Si with the S/c, why would anyone race a S/C'd TC with a stock Si. Its not a fair race.

IMO: Fair is similar mods given the car. For instance: S/C'd TC vs. Turbo'd Si running same boost. Like 6psi for example. Thats fair in the sense they are both boosted and both are running same PSI levels. When you talk about running, i don't get why you feel the need to compare cost of car vs. performance of car.

If the Si cost $20K. TC cost just say $17K. Thats it. Stock vs. Stock. Don't boost the TC for sake of "evening out the cost level". Because when in comes down to performance, Boost vs. N/A on two 4banger cars isn't exactly a "fair race".

Thats just my .02 cents. I do know what you mean and why you would think that, i just don't think its fair to think that...lol if that makes sense..

Cya

-Keith-

lol dont bring forced induction into until u have the nubmers for it for the car... every cars gonna react different!!!

Also yes a tc will lose to a 99 -01 Civic Si
As for the 02-05 I dont think so....

As for the 06 people dont even try ur gonna get ur ___ handed to u.

This is all stock vs stock

Each car responds to mods differently... i/h/e on a civic might get more gains then a tc, but f/i at low boost might respond better to the tc motors.... Everythings a trade off. And driver is seriously 95% of it... when it comes to same mods on cars that are evenly matched.

killerxromances

Also we are talking about the 2000, not the 2005. They are two different Si's with different motors and so on.
Plus, similar weight a 05' Si weighs 2,782. The TC weighs what, 2,900? Although the numbers are close, they really aren't. Every pound does matter. With driver, with a 200lbs guy the Si stays below 3K while the TC goes in the 3K. Now i aggree with everything else however like i said before, 03' Si vs. 05' TC Si won three times. Simliar mods and everything. Only difference was the TC had a short shifter and Si did not. The gearing of the Si really helps it pull hard once it hits vtec and stays within vtec. The Si has the torque advantage at a low rpm. Which is why the TC does beat it off the line in most cases.

But if you want to compare the 05' Si vs. 05' TC stock for stock. Honestly, the Si will still win just not off the line with same driver skill and so forth.

Cya

killerxromances

Exactly. I never said that, but i agree with you. Hey! We agree with something! Woo!

Cya

-Keith-

[quote="killerxromances"]No way... our 4th and 5th is geared better. I pull on Si's in 4th on the highway.

I raced one had me by half a car coming out of third hit 4th and pass...

I mean whatever to each his own... Im in cali maybe our smog polution makes the car go faster...

killerxromances

[quote="-Keith-"]Well if you are going for top speed yeah, the TC has the advantage. But 1/4 i would think stock for stock the Si would be able to take the Tc..as far as below 06'. The new ones, as you said.. No way.

Cya

TimmyT

Okay. Like YOU said this is ALL stock vs stock. So a factory supercharged tC is not stock? And if you want to go FURTHER with this debate. the '06 Si isn't even close to being the same cost of a n/a tC from the factory. So if you can get a FI tC from the factory for around 21 g... Is it unfair to compare the two? Each car responds to mods differently yes.. BUT given the specifications of the 2az-fe to the '05 si. its plain to see wich has more potential and wich would respond better to modifications. tC has a larger bore and stroke thanks to the larger engine, a lower compression ratio and stout internals.

killerxromances

The Supercharger is an option..not a given. On one hand you are correct, being its a factory option you can get it off the lot. Well, will be a factory option. However, i also said a boosted vs a n/a is unfair given both are 4cyl cars. The 06' Si is what im concerned about has much more potiental than in the past. To me a stock car isn't adding a factory supercharger. its stock, n/a 4cyl. Sorry if that confused you, i know some think because the s/c is a factory option, its still stock. When it comes n/a, and you add the s/c. Its no longer stock, no matter where it came from.. IMO.

Cya

TimmyT

Not true. I know a boosted 2000 vic si with 210 whp.. @ 6psi.... While a boosted tC @ 6 psi is runnin above 220 whp with more ft/lb.

As for the boosted vs. NA. I thought the theme of this thread is stock vs stock. If the vic doesn't come boosted stock then I guess they shoulda spent thier 20+ k on a boosted tC from the factory.

TimmyT

I've also stated in these tC vs. threads that comparing lift to non-lift cars isn't fair either.. So what exactly is your point. You want to do some lift/lift comparrisons, how bout 2003+ celica GTS vs 06 Si. While the Si still has the HP advantage (not much) the gt-S definitly has the wieght advantage. and both cars will probably be running similar ft/lb.

killerxromances

The TC doesn't COME boosted. Its a option. It comes naturally aspirated with 138-142whp. All Tc's do not come with the TRD S/c. So that statement wasn't true at all.

And the boosted vs. boosted is true. Where are you getting 6psi 220whp from? Just wondering. At any rate, even if those numbers are correct. At least the mods are the same so in that they are "equal". Plus, with the gearing of the Si it makes up a few ponies. It would still be a very close race.

Cya

TimmyT

I am getting this from the results from the turbo kits out there. zpi stage 0 @ 6.5 was running well above 220 whp.
Yes the '00 Vic Si has a front mount Intercooler as well (I say this cause the stage 0 that did above 220 whp had a FMIC and you want fair)
I said if you can get a tC from the factory boosted (Wich clearly implies an option). So yah made a bad buy when you purchased your vic si for well above 20k and a S/C factory OPTION (happy now?) tC add you to its kill list. Life is a cycle of trial and error i guess.

Anyone who went to Scion Nights saw the S/C tC with the FACTORY OPTION, and No not dealer option even though a dealer might order one on thier own to sell, You can still order one on-line and add it there so FACTORY OPTION (Yes i am here only to please) So its not a pipe dream and I am pretty sure it will be available around the same time the vic is. (Honda has it posted as available for purchase in December)

killerxromances

Yeah, option. You were saying it was stock to have the TRD supercharger when its not. Stock is the n/a. So that ends that.

And the ZPI stage 0 if im not mistaken made 232whp. Thats not really well above 220, but its above. But im not sure why you mentioned that when, from my experience with honda, their motors LOVE boost.

Cya

killerxromances

Decemeber 5th for the Si...The Supercharger should be out in a matter of a month. From what i hear they are taking orders at dealerships now.

Cya

TimmyT

Also the vic Si isn't a STOCK civic if you are using that methodology. Cause the Si is a TRIM. the STOCK Vic would have to be the DX then. And in this case of stock vs. Stock the TC wins hands down. Cause you CAN buy a new DX and fit in the new SI tranny and engine in it..... SO whats stock now?

One of the major complaints about the scion division of Toy corp. is the lack of trim levels for thier car.. So if they made the S/C tC a Trim would it then be a "Stock tC"?

Honda motors Don't love boost. Honda motors are already running High compression ratios, and everyone knows when you want to add PSI the lower the compression ratio the better

There are Insanely impressive honda motors out there... But they are all modified to be able to handle those numbers. What I am saying about the 2az-fe is that on stock internals it is running almost high 11s.... So wich 4 banger honda with stock internals are running those numbers?