autox
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 281
From: Heart of Texas
I planned to have the following done before the first race:
Buddy Club Coilovers (seperate height + spring settings)(not yet in stock@BC as of 3/9)
Hotchkis Front and Rear Sways (installed)
DC Sports Front Strut Brace (on the way)
Ingalls Rear Strut Brace (ZPI said they should have soon)
ZPI Motor Mounts (available soon)
Injen Intake (got it-not yet installed)
NST Pulley (installed)
Tires now 225/45/17 kumho ecsta ASX (not great/not bad)
More mods as money allows:
(Tires I'm not sure yet)
BFG KDW's (top notch performance in Tirerack testing)(sidewall stabilizers)
Kumho SPT's (out performed all other kumhos in tirerack testing)
Kumho MX's (recommended by another autoxer)(moderate showing in tirerack testing)
Enkei RPF1's
Hotchkis rear camber links
DC sports 4-2-1 header
Magnaflow cat-back
??? rotors
??? pads
This is what I planned to do. The coilovers and tires are the parts I need advice about the most. I'm guessing 18" wheels/tires are essential to be competitive? Any and all advice appreciated.
Buddy Club Coilovers (seperate height + spring settings)(not yet in stock@BC as of 3/9)
Hotchkis Front and Rear Sways (installed)
DC Sports Front Strut Brace (on the way)
Ingalls Rear Strut Brace (ZPI said they should have soon)
ZPI Motor Mounts (available soon)
Injen Intake (got it-not yet installed)
NST Pulley (installed)
Tires now 225/45/17 kumho ecsta ASX (not great/not bad)
More mods as money allows:
(Tires I'm not sure yet)
BFG KDW's (top notch performance in Tirerack testing)(sidewall stabilizers)
Kumho SPT's (out performed all other kumhos in tirerack testing)
Kumho MX's (recommended by another autoxer)(moderate showing in tirerack testing)
Enkei RPF1's
Hotchkis rear camber links
DC sports 4-2-1 header
Magnaflow cat-back
??? rotors
??? pads
This is what I planned to do. The coilovers and tires are the parts I need advice about the most. I'm guessing 18" wheels/tires are essential to be competitive? Any and all advice appreciated.
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,182
From: Morgan, Utah
L usually designates Ladies class.
Playing, the car setup looks pretty good, have you tried some different air pressures front to back, just incase you have any understear, just a couple of pounds can make a difference.
Rick
Rick
Playing, the car setup looks pretty good, have you tried some different air pressures front to back, just incase you have any understear, just a couple of pounds can make a difference.
Rick
Rick
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,182
From: Morgan, Utah
Haha, beat me too it, I had already typed it and was distracted by a phone call, dang
This year I am getting my daughter out to run her black Mazda 3S 5 door, will be in STS once we do a few things to it.
Rick
This year I am getting my daughter out to run her black Mazda 3S 5 door, will be in STS once we do a few things to it.
Rick
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OhioScions
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 364
From: Columbus, OHIO
Originally Posted by raamaudio
L usually designates Ladies class.
Playing, the car setup looks pretty good, have you tried some different air pressures front to back, just incase you have any understear, just a couple of pounds can make a difference.
Rick
Rick
Playing, the car setup looks pretty good, have you tried some different air pressures front to back, just incase you have any understear, just a couple of pounds can make a difference.
Rick
Rick
thanks for the pointer
hoping to improve my lead in the class by even more this year...
and maybe next year end up in STS instead of STSL
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,182
From: Morgan, Utah
I have had the pleasure of meeting a few national championship winning women and think that is GREAT that they do so well.
One won the B Street Prepared in her C4 Vette, Rita Wilsey from San Diego, incredibly cool person, and won in the mens class, that is a huge accomplishment for anybody and especially more so for a woman(I thinks she is in her 60's
For your future mods, deffinately the FSB, you will feel it right away. If not done I would put the FSB on the soft setting and try the middle and stiffest rear setting. Next I would have the rear camber(as much as possible with stock parts) set upright as possible, this will help the car rotate better, less understeer. Then you can try more or less air in the rear tires to help tweak it a bit more.
Not wise for the street but a bit of toe out, front and rear will make huge gains in turn in response, faster soloms should be the result, much faster. Toe is pretty easy to do with a couple of tricks, I adjust mine at the course many times.
Run as much negative camber up front as possible, if you class does not allow camber plate, get some crash bolts for the struts, You can leave that setting alone for the street it not to wild, I like around -1.5 degrees for all around driving.
Learn to left foot and threshold brake next, not easy to get the hang of and I am still not as good as I wish I was but those techniques can shave a huge amount of time off once you get it down. Most of your breaking should be done in a straight line at the very last moment possible. That way you carry more speed longer, jump on the brakes(ABS can help alot here, threshold is not really the same as none ABS cars in this case, just have to experiment) very hard, let up on the brakes while starting to apply the throttle, delicate balance is required, start your turn in.
Be as smooth in all this as possible, throughout the run, almost all cars are faster if you use fluid movents as it does not through the weight onto one or two tires so violently, you want as much weight distributed as possible on all tires.
No worries though, most fast and well driven FWD cars will lift an inside rear tire when handling is setup correctly and your driving it right.
One more nice change, not to costly, if the rules allow, use an Odyssey PC680 battery for race days at least, some run them all the time even with a small upgraded stereo.
Stock batter is around 38lbs and in a terribly location for handling. We have three different batteries for our car depending on what we are doing that particular weekend. I.E. autocross, road trip, audio competition, etc. They range in weight from 14lbs(PC680), 24 lbs(PC925), 36lbs(PC1200)
Whatever one we have in the car is in the rear over the axle as far forward as possible, offset to passenger side, batter box cut into and welded to the rear floor.
A couple of more pointers I just thought of, do not bother with a rear STB(there are no rear strut towers anyway). A C pillar bar will do little if any good as well. A B pillar bar across the floor is not needed, the stock design already has it built in well enough for our needs.
Run with the windows down, seldom hit speeds high enough to worry about aerodyamics on most autocross courses but it does lower the center of gravity a bit.
If they allow it, remove the rear seat, the bottom is low in weight, the top is very heavy.
Whatever seats are in the car, if not being used when you run, lower the seat backs as much as possible, slide passenger seat all the way to the rear, it helps a bit as well, I do this even with a passenger in the seat(cannot lower the backs now as we have fixed back, 14.6 lb seats now
HAVE fun!!!
Rick
Rick
One won the B Street Prepared in her C4 Vette, Rita Wilsey from San Diego, incredibly cool person, and won in the mens class, that is a huge accomplishment for anybody and especially more so for a woman(I thinks she is in her 60's
For your future mods, deffinately the FSB, you will feel it right away. If not done I would put the FSB on the soft setting and try the middle and stiffest rear setting. Next I would have the rear camber(as much as possible with stock parts) set upright as possible, this will help the car rotate better, less understeer. Then you can try more or less air in the rear tires to help tweak it a bit more.
Not wise for the street but a bit of toe out, front and rear will make huge gains in turn in response, faster soloms should be the result, much faster. Toe is pretty easy to do with a couple of tricks, I adjust mine at the course many times.
Run as much negative camber up front as possible, if you class does not allow camber plate, get some crash bolts for the struts, You can leave that setting alone for the street it not to wild, I like around -1.5 degrees for all around driving.
Learn to left foot and threshold brake next, not easy to get the hang of and I am still not as good as I wish I was but those techniques can shave a huge amount of time off once you get it down. Most of your breaking should be done in a straight line at the very last moment possible. That way you carry more speed longer, jump on the brakes(ABS can help alot here, threshold is not really the same as none ABS cars in this case, just have to experiment) very hard, let up on the brakes while starting to apply the throttle, delicate balance is required, start your turn in.
Be as smooth in all this as possible, throughout the run, almost all cars are faster if you use fluid movents as it does not through the weight onto one or two tires so violently, you want as much weight distributed as possible on all tires.
No worries though, most fast and well driven FWD cars will lift an inside rear tire when handling is setup correctly and your driving it right.
One more nice change, not to costly, if the rules allow, use an Odyssey PC680 battery for race days at least, some run them all the time even with a small upgraded stereo.
Stock batter is around 38lbs and in a terribly location for handling. We have three different batteries for our car depending on what we are doing that particular weekend. I.E. autocross, road trip, audio competition, etc. They range in weight from 14lbs(PC680), 24 lbs(PC925), 36lbs(PC1200)
Whatever one we have in the car is in the rear over the axle as far forward as possible, offset to passenger side, batter box cut into and welded to the rear floor.
A couple of more pointers I just thought of, do not bother with a rear STB(there are no rear strut towers anyway). A C pillar bar will do little if any good as well. A B pillar bar across the floor is not needed, the stock design already has it built in well enough for our needs.
Run with the windows down, seldom hit speeds high enough to worry about aerodyamics on most autocross courses but it does lower the center of gravity a bit.
If they allow it, remove the rear seat, the bottom is low in weight, the top is very heavy.
Whatever seats are in the car, if not being used when you run, lower the seat backs as much as possible, slide passenger seat all the way to the rear, it helps a bit as well, I do this even with a passenger in the seat(cannot lower the backs now as we have fixed back, 14.6 lb seats now
HAVE fun!!!
Rick
Rick
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SL Member
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 281
From: Heart of Texas
Why is there even a ladies class in autox? Its not like basketball where they would be at a physical disadvantage. Women compete in drag racing, regularly beating the guys in the same class. B.S. IMO.
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,182
From: Morgan, Utah
Weight is a sore issue for me right now, first time in my nearly 54 years I need to lose 20 lbs and yet I will spend hundreds, if not thousands on taking weight off the car instead of losing some myself, lol! I just can't give up all my favorite micro brews!!!!
About women, it is not lack of ability, it is mostly lack of experience since women are not generally aggressive as men in such activities they do not have the skills as well developed. Fast effective driving takes experience, muscle memory has to be learned at a very deep level, feeling what the car is doing, reacting instinctively, there is not alot of time to think when racing, far less when autocrossing.
Once those skills are learned, when you drive mostly by feel, react automatically to the smallest of imputs, only then can you truely be fast and that just takes time.
The only difference I see between the sexes is we practice driving agressively more (though most young guns are alot worse at being fast than they think they are, video games do not translate well to real world, no tactil feel and that is paramount to learning to be fast)
Rick
About women, it is not lack of ability, it is mostly lack of experience since women are not generally aggressive as men in such activities they do not have the skills as well developed. Fast effective driving takes experience, muscle memory has to be learned at a very deep level, feeling what the car is doing, reacting instinctively, there is not alot of time to think when racing, far less when autocrossing.
Once those skills are learned, when you drive mostly by feel, react automatically to the smallest of imputs, only then can you truely be fast and that just takes time.
The only difference I see between the sexes is we practice driving agressively more (though most young guns are alot worse at being fast than they think they are, video games do not translate well to real world, no tactil feel and that is paramount to learning to be fast)
Rick
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 281
From: Heart of Texas
That makes a kind of sense. However it seems that autox would have the most appeal to ladies who are already agressive drivers. I kinda doubt Ms. Playindagamewell was a meek driver before autoxing.
As for me I'm 33 and I used to take my aggression/frustration out on gravel roads in my early 20s. I was out drifting the @$$-end around 90 degree corners before I ever heard of rally or drift.
As for the video games-they do teach good concepts. Such as hard breaking right before a corner while the car is still balanced then accelerating thru it. What they don't teach is real-life remaining in control while pushing a car to the very limits of control. As you already know you have to go right to the limit and maintain constant control. A split second screwup can be disasterous. This is the beauty of autox-serious injuries are highly unlikely. However autox won't seperate the men from the boys as well as a place like pikes peak.
As for me I'm 33 and I used to take my aggression/frustration out on gravel roads in my early 20s. I was out drifting the @$$-end around 90 degree corners before I ever heard of rally or drift.
As for the video games-they do teach good concepts. Such as hard breaking right before a corner while the car is still balanced then accelerating thru it. What they don't teach is real-life remaining in control while pushing a car to the very limits of control. As you already know you have to go right to the limit and maintain constant control. A split second screwup can be disasterous. This is the beauty of autox-serious injuries are highly unlikely. However autox won't seperate the men from the boys as well as a place like pikes peak.
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,182
From: Morgan, Utah
Very well put and I even agree about video games being a good teacher for certain aspects of driving, my son learned a good line, late braking, etc, but he has alot more to learn in applying the skills and only real experience can teach that, as you know as well
I also grew up in the country on gravel, snow packed, rain slick twisty highways, sideways was my way of life!!
I have proven on many occasions I can be quite fast but I have never been exceptionally smooth which would improve my times(not just autocrossing, I do other things as well;)
I have handed my cars over to more talented(sould say gifted!) drivers and shown just how much I may never learn.
But my last car was such a handful to drive, 250WHP in A Matrix that still had alot of room to improve the suspention, brakes pistons not sized right, etc, even the national champs that drove it could not come close to me. That was due to the required very agressive driving style to make it fast and it truely was. But, getting it dialed in and then learning to be smoother, would of been far quicker and we were already .01 out of second place twice in SM class in So Cal, some pretty quick cars their(the guy that always took first was an 8 time national champ)
We are on a quest with the tC to get every once of handling, braking and will have more than enough power(will have to turn it down most likely but I hate doing that;)
On the agenda to test is wether or not to remove the ABS and wether to run 225 or 246 Hoosier autocross slicks on our 17x8 wheels. I wish I could get wider wheels but our sponsor does not have them available for us. 245 will allow more rubber on the road but less overall control of the sidewalls than 225s, hmmmmm. Would have to roll the fenders for sure as like to run very little rear camber, helps rotate the rear.
I am considering stagering the tires, 245 front, 225 rear.
Rick
I also grew up in the country on gravel, snow packed, rain slick twisty highways, sideways was my way of life!!
I have proven on many occasions I can be quite fast but I have never been exceptionally smooth which would improve my times(not just autocrossing, I do other things as well;)
I have handed my cars over to more talented(sould say gifted!) drivers and shown just how much I may never learn.
But my last car was such a handful to drive, 250WHP in A Matrix that still had alot of room to improve the suspention, brakes pistons not sized right, etc, even the national champs that drove it could not come close to me. That was due to the required very agressive driving style to make it fast and it truely was. But, getting it dialed in and then learning to be smoother, would of been far quicker and we were already .01 out of second place twice in SM class in So Cal, some pretty quick cars their(the guy that always took first was an 8 time national champ)
We are on a quest with the tC to get every once of handling, braking and will have more than enough power(will have to turn it down most likely but I hate doing that;)
On the agenda to test is wether or not to remove the ABS and wether to run 225 or 246 Hoosier autocross slicks on our 17x8 wheels. I wish I could get wider wheels but our sponsor does not have them available for us. 245 will allow more rubber on the road but less overall control of the sidewalls than 225s, hmmmmm. Would have to roll the fenders for sure as like to run very little rear camber, helps rotate the rear.
I am considering stagering the tires, 245 front, 225 rear.
Rick
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 281
From: Heart of Texas
What struts or coilovers would you recommend for use in street touring class? I'm strongly leanin toward Buddy Club coilovers that should be available very soon.
http://www.buddyclub.us/buddyclub/top_m.html
Also I gather from your last post 18's are not essential to be competitive in a tc. What are some of the best tires in 225/45/17 (140 min treadwear per STS rulebook)?
Doubt i'll go street modified class unless I get sponsored. Too expensive to be competitive in that class.
http://www.buddyclub.us/buddyclub/top_m.html
Also I gather from your last post 18's are not essential to be competitive in a tc. What are some of the best tires in 225/45/17 (140 min treadwear per STS rulebook)?
Doubt i'll go street modified class unless I get sponsored. Too expensive to be competitive in that class.
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From: SePA
18s will actually hinder you. The weight of larger wheels (unsprung weight) is more detremental than weight elsewhere on the car. If you can get ultra-ultra-light 18s then maybe. If 16s fit over then to go that way.
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Posts: 1,182
From: Morgan, Utah
No idea on buddy club coilovers, any decent one should help alot but having seperate height adjustable, like B@G soon to be released, Megan soon as well and now BC, that is a nice step above spring perch height changes because you can set the corner weights better and have the car more level, full travel, etc, just more adjustable.
Main issue is not being dual adjustable, I would give my left *** for a dual adjustable set of coilovers!!!! Still beter to have at least single adjustable damping instead of a fixed rate shock so not all is lost
Even if 18s weight the same they move much of the weight towards the outside perimeter and still negatively effect acceleration and stopping. Plus sidewalls need to be stiff but to stiff and you can break traction more over bumps as well as break things more on the street.
I do like the looks of reasonable big wheels but not wagon train wheels on any car. I actually saw a purple 67 Caprice drop top with 26" wheels at an upholstery shop last week, god it about made me puke!!! The shop owner was not to please to even have it there, lol!
Rick
Main issue is not being dual adjustable, I would give my left *** for a dual adjustable set of coilovers!!!! Still beter to have at least single adjustable damping instead of a fixed rate shock so not all is lost
Even if 18s weight the same they move much of the weight towards the outside perimeter and still negatively effect acceleration and stopping. Plus sidewalls need to be stiff but to stiff and you can break traction more over bumps as well as break things more on the street.
I do like the looks of reasonable big wheels but not wagon train wheels on any car. I actually saw a purple 67 Caprice drop top with 26" wheels at an upholstery shop last week, god it about made me puke!!! The shop owner was not to please to even have it there, lol!
Rick
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OhioScions
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 364
From: Columbus, OHIO
i'm not a good enough of a driver yet to make a difference for having 18's instead of 17's
i would consider myself somewhat of an aggressive driver.. but i still have a LOT of work to do to get more aggressive then i am at the moment.. especially on the auto-x forum...
i would consider myself somewhat of an aggressive driver.. but i still have a LOT of work to do to get more aggressive then i am at the moment.. especially on the auto-x forum...
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,182
From: Morgan, Utah
Your tires and wheels are the most important mod you can make, do not take them lightly!
But, it would be better to have a sticky, linear responding, etc, tire in 18 and more weight than a lighter weight lower grip tire and wheel package;)
The best tire for the STS class is going to be the RT-615 but for less money and should last a bit longer, better in the rain, etc, the Hankook 212's are almost as grippy but lack a bit of the finese of the RT's. We have them for rain tires and they are very impressive to say the least.
Rick
But, it would be better to have a sticky, linear responding, etc, tire in 18 and more weight than a lighter weight lower grip tire and wheel package;)
The best tire for the STS class is going to be the RT-615 but for less money and should last a bit longer, better in the rain, etc, the Hankook 212's are almost as grippy but lack a bit of the finese of the RT's. We have them for rain tires and they are very impressive to say the least.
Rick
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OhioScions
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 364
From: Columbus, OHIO
Originally Posted by raamaudio
Your tires and wheels are the most important mod you can make, do not take them lightly!
But, it would be better to have a sticky, linear responding, etc, tire in 18 and more weight than a lighter weight lower grip tire and wheel package;)
The best tire for the STS class is going to be the RT-615 but for less money and should last a bit longer, better in the rain, etc, the Hankook 212's are almost as grippy but lack a bit of the finese of the RT's. We have them for rain tires and they are very impressive to say the least.
Rick
But, it would be better to have a sticky, linear responding, etc, tire in 18 and more weight than a lighter weight lower grip tire and wheel package;)
The best tire for the STS class is going to be the RT-615 but for less money and should last a bit longer, better in the rain, etc, the Hankook 212's are almost as grippy but lack a bit of the finese of the RT's. We have them for rain tires and they are very impressive to say the least.
Rick
but i already had the 18's that are my summer use rims before i realized how addictied i was going to get to this sport last year
lol so i did get the best tire possible (the 615's) to help make up for my 18's