actually, pretty much any scientist will tell you that everything in science is called a theory, even with undeniable proof. A theory in science is a title only awarded to ideas and experiments that are nearly certain in nature.

All of our bodies are made of cells, thats pretty much common knowledge. you can take your arm and put it under a microscope and see cells, everytime. Never in history have cells not been present. YET, the fact that all living things are made of cells is still called the 'cell theory'. My heart is beating until the day i die, that is a theory also. Do ya catch where im going with this?

 

OK, if I found the correct post you referenced, you want to stick with theism vs. nontheism….

All acounts of jesus are based on hearsay.
No one has the slightest physical evidence to support a historical jesus; no artifacts, dwelling, works of carpentry, or self-written manuscripts. All claims about jesus derive from writings of other people. There occurs not a single contemporary writing that mentions jesus. All documents about jesus got written well after the life of the alleged jesus from either unknown authors, people who had never met an earthly jesus, or from fraudulent, mythical or allegorical writings.

 

You would think that if it pleased god for us to know him he would show himslef more often/definativly as oppose to never. But I'm sure you have a rationalization for that.

 

He does! You just don't see it. Remember my post way back when... the dead in a casket can't hear the people talking, but that does nto mean that the people don't exist...

 

God was always here. He didn't have a beginning. Yeah, I understand if you look at it from a purely scientific way, that dosen't make sense. But that dosen't disprove it. There are a lot of things that Science can't explain. I don't believe everything on this list, but it just proves some things that science can't explain.

1. DARK MATTER of an unknown form makes up most of the matter of
the universe. This matter is not predicted by the standard
physics models. The so-called "Theory of Everything" does not
predict and does not understand what this substance is.

2. THE LAW OF GRAVITY appears to be seriously broken.
Experiments by Saxl and Allais found that Foucault pendulums
veer off in strange directions during solar eclipses.
Interplanetary NASA satellites are showing persistent errors in
trajectory. Neither of these is explained or predicted by the
standard theory of gravity known as Einstein's General
Relativity.

3. COLD FUSION. The Cold Fusion phenomenon violates physics as
we understand it, and yet it has been duplicated in various
forms in over 500 laboratories around the world. Recent studies
by the Electric Power Research Institute, a large non-profit
research organization funded by the nation's power companies,
found that Cold Fusion works. A recent Navy study also verified
the reality of Cold Fusion, and the original MIT study which
supposedly disproved Cold Fusion has been found to have doctored
its data. Present day physics has no explanation for how it
works, but it does work.

4. CHARGE CLUSTERS. Under certain conditions, billions of
electrons can "stick together" in close proximity, despite the
law of electromagnetism that like charges repel. Charge clusters
are small, one millionth of a meter in diameter, and are
composed of tens or hundreds of billions of electrons. They
should fly apart at enormous speed, but they do not. This
indicates that our laws of electromagnetism are missing
something important.

5. COSMOLOGY. Quasars, which are supposed to be the most distant
astronomical objects in the sky, are often found connected to
nearby galaxies by jets of gas. This suggests that they may not
be as far away as previously thought, and their red shifts are
due to some other, more unusual physics which is not yet fully
understood.

6. SPEED OF LIGHT, once thought unbreakable, has been exceeded
in several recent experiments. Our notion of what is possible in
terms of propagation speed has been changing as a result.
Certain phenomena, such as solar disturbances on the sun which
take more than eight minutes to be visible on the earth, are
registered instantaneously on the acupuncture points of
instrumented subjects. Acupuncture points apparently respond to
solar events by some other force which travels through space at
a much higher speed than light.

This covers just a few of the more glaring anomalies in the
"hard sciences." Evidence has also accumulated in the laboratory
that many paranormal effects are real, and can be verified and
studied scientifically. Among these are the following:

7. ESP. Large-scale experiments by the Princeton PEAR Lab as
well as other laboratories have proven that ESP is a real,
statistically verifiable scientific phenomenon. Thousands of
experiments have been conducted with dozens of subjects, which
demonstrate that this form of communication is real, and that it
does not weaken measurably with distance. This makes it unlike
any known physical force.

8. PSYCHOKINESIS, OR MIND OVER MATTER. The ability to exert
psychic force over objects at a distance has also been
demonstrated in large-scale experiments. Even over distances of
thousands of miles, the behavior of certain machines, called
REGs for Random Event Generators, have been altered by the
intention, or the psychic force of a distant person. The odds
that these effects are real, and not due to chance, is now
measured in billions to one. In other words, this phenomenon is
real.

9. REMOTE VIEWING. The American military conducted a secret
remote viewing program for almost two decades. It was supported
because it worked, and evidence of its success has now become
public. The remote viewers have demonstrated that it is possible
to view "targets" which are remote in space and time. In many
cases details which were unavailable any other way were acquired
by the viewers. Rigorous statistical experiments have confirmed
that remote viewing has accuracy far above chance, and
represents a real phenomenon which defies present science.

10. TIME AND PROPHECY. One unusual aspect of ESP, Remote Viewing
and Psychokinesis is that "time" doesn't seem to matter. One can
exert an influence or acquire information in the past and in the
future, almost as easily as in the present. In conventional
physics, the order of events is very important, but in the realm
of psychic phenomena there seems to be a flexibility to move in
time that defies current physics.

11. OUT-OF-BODY EXPERIENCE. Experiments have been performed
which show that, during some out-of-body experiences, the
"astral body" or center of consciousness of the individual can
be detected at remote locations. When individuals go "out of
body" and focus their consciousness at another location,
physical disturbances have been measured at that remote
location. These include anomalous light, electrical, magnetic
and other physical forces which indicate the "astral body"
sometimes has physically measurable properties.

12. GHOSTS. Modern scientific ghost hunters use magnetic,
electrical, optical and thermal sensors when they survey
supposedly haunted sites. In hundreds of cases, technically
trained researchers have found measurable physical anomalies
when ghosts are said to be present. Although some people have
claimed to see ghosts, and many have reported anomalous cold
spots and described a strange chill on their skin, modern ghost
hunters have shown that unusual magnetic fields and strong
voltages also occur in these same haunted locations. Unusual
orbs have been photographed at the same time that magnetic and
electrical disturbances are measured. None of these can be
explained by conventional science.

 

So... Because science can't explain these things there must be a god? Wrong. We are just a relatively primitive people. To me not knowing is way better than just making something up without logic or reason.

 

And people who pray to god really do see positive results more than people who do not. The power of belief in god is very strong. it releases chemicals in the brain that causes people to think more clearly. Also, the aura of a person is much stronger when they are wishing for good in their life. Its not very well studied yet, but this aura that the brain waves create may actually trigger healing events inside the human body. Every day science comes closer to providing answers to things that others would call godly acts and miracles.

Lets not forget evolution is still happening to us with each generation.
- with each passing generation, the human pinky toe has gotten smaller and smaller...it will eventually be gone.
- humans no longer use their spleen. but in past generations the spleen was vital to human survival. It was used filter the poisons in plants that our ancestors used to eat.
- humans are much taller than they used to be. you would be lucky to find someone over 5ft tall thousands of years ago. Lets not forget that people are developing much faster than they used to physically.
- genetically, humans should have six fingers, but evolution has caused this gene to stay dorment. There are actually many humans born every year with 6 fingers, but the 6th finger is almost always cut off since the baby can heal with no sign of deformity.



now dont get me wrong, everyone has their own beliefs in something. i persoanlly taught sunday school for 5 years and was highly active in the church theology classes and seminars. I have also studied western religions (the ancient religions), and spent a month in india studying theology and religion.

the real thing people of religion must do and ask themselves is as follows.

think of god, think of everything you think you know, and have been told about him. then, everything he has ever done to touch your life. think about why, and take out all of the human characteristics from every act and intention, and you have your god. you will suprise yourself with that which you find.

 

absurd! Everything about today suggests that the Bible is historically accurate. Remember my post about the scrolls? 99.5% matching after almost 2000 years. Artifacts, buried cities, roman histroy, everything concurs with the Bible. Now, why today, are the names of God and Jesus still today taken into vain or blasphemied. You don'thear anyone saying "for chance's sake" or "Budha Damnit" or anyone elses name with the initials JC.

There are books written about Jesus every single day. Man, what a waste of time these people devoting their lives to a fictiscious character. And also the people that copied the Bible under such strict regulations... A brief history of manuscripts...

45- 95 A.D. The New Testament was written in Greek. The Pauline Epistles (pauls letters), the Gospel of Mark, the Gospel of Luke, and the book of Acts are all dated from 45-63 A.D. The Gospel of John and the Revelation may have been written as late as 95 A.D.

There are over 5,600 early Greek Manuscripts of the New Testament that are still in existence. The oldest manuscripts were written on papyrus and the later manuscripts were written on leather called parchment.

125 A.D. The New Testament manuscript which dates most closely to the original autograph was copied around 125 A.D, within 35 years of the original. It is designated "p 52" and contains a small portion of John 18. (The "p" stands for papyrus.)
200 A.D. Bodmer p 66 a papyrus manuscript which contains a large part of the Gospel of John.
200 A.D. Chester Beatty Biblical papyrus p 46 contains the Pauline Epistles and Hebrews.
225 A.D. Bodmer Papyrus p 75 contains the Gospels of Luke and John.
250-300 A.D. Chester Beatty Biblical papyrus p 45 contains portions of the four Gospels and Acts.
350 A.D. Codex Sinaiticus contains the entire New Testament and almost the entire Old Testament in Greek. It was discovered by a German scholar Tisendorf in 1856 at an Orthodox monastery at Mt. Sinai.
350 A.D. Codex Vaticanus: {B} is an almost complete New Testament. It was cataloged as being in the Vatican Library since 1475.
TranslationsEarly translations of the New Testament can give important insight into the underlying Greek manuscripts from which they were translated from.

180 A.D. Early translations of the New Testament from Greek into Latin, Syriac, and Coptic versions began about 180 A.D.
195 A.D. The name of the first translation of the Old and New Testaments into Latin was termed Old Latin, both Testaments having been translated from the Greek. Parts of the Old Latin were found in quotes by the church father Tertullian, who lived around 160-220 A.D. in north Africa and wrote treatises on theology.
300 A.D. The Old Syriac was a translation of the New Testament from the Greek into Syriac.
300 A.D. The Coptic Versions: Coptic was spoken in four dialects in Egypt. The Bible was translated into each of these four dialects.
380 A.D. The Latin Vulgate was translated by St. Jerome. He translated into Latin the Old Testament from the Hebrew and the New Testament from Greek. The Latin Vulgate became the Bible of the Western Church until the Protestant Reformation in the 1500's. It continues to be the authoritative translation of the Roman Catholic Church to this day. The Protestant Reformation saw an increase in translations of the Bible into the common languages of the people.
Other early translations of the Bible were in Armenian, Georgian, and Ethiopic, Slavic, and Gothic.
1380 A.D. The first English translation of the Bible was by John Wycliffe. He translated the Bible into English from the Latin Vulgate. This was a translation from a translation and not a translation from the original Hebrew and Greek. Wycliffe was forced to translate from the Latin Vulgate because he did not know Hebrew or Greek

 

you confuse me. actually, alot of your posts do. but gravity is a pull, like two magnets. you CAN see gravity. drop something. wow gravity. how do i know its gravity? go to outer-space. wow no gravity. gravity is the pull between to objects. you have gravity. if you like, i can calculate your pull on earth, or even on me. it is there and is provable and experimentable. religion, god and whatev are not. although i do think the teachings within them can be important, the problem with it is when the go crazy (cough crusades cough) and go slaughtering, or in this day and age denouncing, everyone and everything. Hey, who is Jewish here? jew krew!

 

Care to provide any links to prove your claimed 95.5% acuracy rate? I didnt know you read Greek and Hebrew. Which versions are 95.5 percent accurate? And is your bible more or less accurate than the Greek Orthodox?


Many heretical gospels got written by that time, but Irenaeus considered only some of them for mystical reasons. Elaine Pagels writes: "Although the gospels of the New Testament-- like those discovered at Nag Hammadi-- are attributed to Jesus' followers, no one knows who actually wrote any of them." Not only do we not know who wrote them, consider that none of the Gospels got written during the alleged life of Jesus, nor do the unknown authors make the claim to have met an earthly Jesus. Add to this that none of the original gospel manuscripts exist; we only have copies of copies.

The consensus of many biblical historians put the dating of the earliest Gospel, that of Mark, at sometime after 70 C.E., and the last Gospel, John after 90 C.E. [Pagels, 1995; Helms]. This would make it some 40 years after the alleged crucifixion of Jesus that we have any Gospel writings that mention him! Elaine Pagels writes that "the first Christian gospel was probably written during the last year of the war, or the year it ended. Where it was written and by whom we do not know; the work is anonymous, although tradition attributes it to Mark..."

The traditional Church has portrayed the authors as the apostles Mark, Luke, Matthew, & John, but scholars know from critical textural research that there simply occurs no evidence that the gospel authors could have served as the apostles described in the Gospel stories. Yet even today, we hear priests and ministers describing these authors as the actual disciples of Christ. Many Bibles still continue to label the stories as "The Gospel according to St. Matthew," "St. Mark," "St. Luke," St. John." No apostle would have announced his own sainthood before the Church's establishment of sainthood. But one need not refer to scholars to determine the lack of evidence for authorship. As an experiment, imagine the Gospels without their titles. See if you can find out from the texts who wrote them; try to find their names.
Even if the texts supported the notion that the apostles wrote them, consider that the average life span of humans in the first century came to around 30, and very few people lived to 70. If the apostles births occurred at about the same time as the alleged Jesus, and wrote their gospels in their old age, that would put Mark at least 70 years old, and John at over 110.

The gospel of Mark describes the first written Bible gospel. And although Mark appears deceptively after the Matthew gospel, the gospel of Mark got written at least a generation before Matthew. From its own words, we can deduce that the author of Mark had neither heard Jesus nor served as his personal follower. Whoever wrote the gospel, he simply accepted the mythology of Jesus without question and wrote a crude an ungrammatical account of the popular story at the time. Any careful reading of the three Synoptic Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke) will reveal that Mark served as the common element between Matthew and Luke and gave the main source for both of them. Of Mark's 666* verses, some 600 appear in Matthew, some 300 in Luke. According to Randel Helms, the author of Mark, stands at least at a third remove from Jesus and more likely at the fourth remove. [Helms]

* Most Bibles show 678 verses for Mark, not 666, but many Biblical scholars think the last 12 verses came later from interpolation. The earliest manuscripts and other ancient sources do not have Mark 16: 9-20. Moreover the text style does not match and the transition between verse 8 and 9 appears awkward. Even some of today's Bibles such as the NIV exclude the last 12 verses.

The author of Matthew had obviously gotten his information from Mark's gospel and used them for his own needs. He fashioned his narrative to appeal to Jewish tradition and Scripture. He improved the grammar of Mark's Gospel, corrected what he felt theologically important, and heightened the miracles and magic.
The author of Luke admits himself as an interpreter of earlier material and not an eyewitness (Luke 1:1-4). Many scholars think the author of Luke lived as a gentile, or at the very least, a hellenized Jew and even possibly a woman. He (or she) wrote at a time of tension in the Roman empire along with its fever of persecution. Many modern scholars think that the Gospel of Matthew and Luke got derived from the Mark gospel and a hypothetical document called "Q" (German Quelle, which means "source"). [Helms; Wilson] . However, since we have no manuscript from Q, no one could possibly determine its author or where or how he got his information or the date of its authorship. Again we get faced with unreliable methodology and obscure sources.

John, the last appearing Bible Gospel, presents us with long theological discourses from Jesus and could not possibly have come as literal words from a historical Jesus. The Gospel of John disagrees with events described in Mark, Matthew, and Luke. Moreover the book got written in Greek near the end of the first century, and according to Bishop Shelby Spong, the book "carried within it a very obvious reference to the death of John Zebedee (John 21:23)." [Spong]

Please understand that the stories themselves cannot serve as examples of eyewitness accounts since they came as products of the minds of the unknown authors, and not from the characters themselves. The Gospels describe narrative stories, written almost virtually in the third person. People who wish to portray themselves as eyewitnesses will write in the first person, not in the third person. Moreover, many of the passages attributed to Jesus could only have come from the invention of its authors. For example, many of the statements of Jesus claim to have come from him while allegedly alone. If so, who heard him? It becomes even more marked when the evangelists report about what Jesus thought. To whom did Jesus confide his thoughts? Clearly, the Gospels employ techniques that fictional writers use. In any case the Gospels can only serve, at best, as hearsay, and at worst, as fictional, mythological, or falsified stories.



Notice that none of them were written anywhere near the time of christ walking the earth. About four generations had passed between the christ and any writings of him. Would not a man who did the great things that jesus was given credit for been written about within a short time of his death, if not while he was still alive? Would not the people who witnessed any of the "miracles" had been the first to wrote of them?
Again, one cannot provide the bible as proof the bible speaks of truth. If Darwins great gradfather wrote a book that spoke of the great atom that created the universe, referencing that book as proof of the great atom would be asinine.

 

uhm, very few things contradict because they have either been lost or destroyed by the church. but every so often something once lost or not know about pops up.

most recently, an ancient scroll was found that implied that judas was not a traitor to jesus at all. it offers a completely different account of the jesus' death. This newly discovered text states that judas was told by god to turn jesus in, otherwise the ultimate sacrifice would never happen... and where would christianity be at today, if at all?

The only reason this document exists is because the guy who discovered it sent copies to museums and to the public before he did the church.

anyhow, the church is not exactly going to release anything that will shake the foundation of anyones beliefs. If you think they would, then your just plain stupid. Not talking about anyone specifically when saying stupid, but the church is just as good as major corporations at covering things up they dont like.

 

Just read your latest post, and god, you listed a lot of un necessary things! Dark matter cannot be explained becuase we cannot get there to test on it, and its called anti matter sir. we have created it, but cannot crate any real amount or harness it. i cannot go into much detail on it, for it is not my speciality (yet?), but we can PROVE it exsits. law of gravity is effected as so. in a solar eclipse, the moon may be pulled to the sun in a certain way that eases the gravity effected on earth, thus changing our pull. equally again, i can ask my physics teacher these questions, but cannot guarentee an answer. and we cannot harness fusion. it is not an efficient source of energy, because we make it happen. it is not unexplainable, but you have yet to ask, thus to you it is an unimaginable thing. to do so in a lab, we must understand it, so i wonder how it defies the laws of physics. idk about the clusters, not a physics major. sir, we cannot get matter to go the speed of light. i do not know what expairiments YOU have read, but it is a scientific fact that it would require an impossible amount of energy to get one atom to the speed of light, if at all possible. we can get LIGHT to go that fast, but then again thats its speed... ESP is not understood yet, but to say that it cannot be explained by any scientific therory is irrational. do you know how much POWER is in your body? 5 humans could power a small city. I, unlike others, feel the brain has unmatched and untapped powers that we may not have or may ever have, but considering how evolved our brains are, their must be more to it... but that is just a therory... i urge you to explain where you get your facts form for number eight there... i am unaware of any creditable souce conducting an exparament... same for number nine. please (no bashing on this bit plz) consider the idea of a 4th demention. is is likely, but that is for another disuccion. ignoring that concept i still see no way of how it works and no evidence of a credible souce conducting an expairiment. please do NOT MENTION FORTELLING THE FUTURE! this could turn ugly, and will change the topic. if you wish to debate that, create a topic about time travel and i will tear any thesis of yours to subatomic shreads. idk about 11, once again no credible group actually attemped this. and dont mention david blane or whatev, smoke and mirrors. ghosts are a contravercial and usually slaughered on impact when conducted by someone with a cool and logical brain. please, do mention ghosts, they are illogical and irrelivent and also only fit for another post.

DO NOT COME TO THE TABLE WITH A PLATE FULL OF RELIGIOUS MISUNDERSTANDINGS AND IGNORANCE UNLESS YOU WANT A HEAPING HELPING OF FACTS!

btw you have yet to really explain outer space, and if you like i can calculate the odds of other life out there....
SO BRING THE DEBATING LADIES AND GENTLEMEN! THE HEAT IS ON!

 

^Uh Oh... Glad he's on my side.

 

x2



although as of right now, mathematics states that it is impossible for solid matter to accelerate to the speed of light, there is an open equation for solid matter to travel faster than light.
the closer an object aproaches the speed of light, the matter that it consists of stretches and the amount of energy needed to contain that matter increases. A grain of sand at the speed of light would use more energy than the entire universe has and would expand literally in all directions infinitely at the speed of light.

however, FTL travel is theoretically possible..but im not exactly an expert in FTL travel

 

Hmm... Here is a fun thought. What if God died or left to go chill with some peeps who didn't spend time inventing new ways to kill his creations? How would anybody know?
Yeah Yeah Yeah God can't die. No ability to think outside the box thier parents put them in.

 

HAHA... That's the funniest part about this entire conversation. If we lived in India none of you would believe in God but instead be arguing for multiple hindu gods! LOL!!! Gets me everytime.

 

I just want to counter one argument, since going through 14 pages is a bit much.

One argument for God is that physics, math, biology and so forth is so perfectly matched that it MUST have been intelligent design. It is not that easy.

We do not know how old the universe is or how expansive it is. We are one planet that observed MANY that do not have the conditions for life (as we know it). For all we know, the Big Bang could have happened a billion times and FINALLY this last time it was enough to make life...on Earth.

Put enough monkeys in a room and they will eventually write Shakespeare. Of course, it is just a saying but if time is infinite than it could happen.

It is impossible to prove God exists and impossible to prove God does not exist, and even impossible to prove God existed, created the universe and then died. Maybe God can die, we only formed a concept that God(s) can not die.

God would need to come down and make him/herself known to all or science would need to advance so much we could go to the beginning of time.

And from what I read, everyone is focusing on Christianity. There are many other religions with books and writings. Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Shinto, etc. For all we know, Vishnu and Jesus play tennis doubles against Allah and Buddha.

 

because it is the feeling you get when your alone in nature, the wholeness you feel when you can get close to him. You may explain it as an increase of endorphins or chemical change in the brain but I know that it is your closeness to him that causes it.

Because I know that when I die it wont matter how I got there just that I did.

You may have felt you have found it all but I'm just saying don't close your minds to alternative views.

 

In order to know/see God you have to first accept Him. He already accepts us with all our faults, but in order for us to truly know Him we must accept Him into our daily lives in every way.

 

Let's say God, a being that was never human, dies. Fortunately for all existence there's Jesus to take over.
God wants to chill with His peeps. I've chilled in his presence before. He is everywhere. Remember, God is a being not bound by skin and bone.