Which bible do you use? You do realize there are over 50 versions of the bible and translated in over 35 languages right? And I've actually read that whole site. Not to mention countless others that show the contradictions. If you are merely casting it aside tell me exactly what type of source citation you deem worthy and I will find you one that shows the contradictions and horrors of the bible.

 

Miracles-supernatural occurrence. I believe that they can be empowered by Satan or God.
Illusions-tricks, slight of hand. lighting and effects.

There is a difference.

As for Simon the Sorcerer, some stories were Apocryphal, which have no divine influence according to my doctrine. Also there were some Roman writers. Every one of the stories contradicted the other ones, not just the Biblical account.

Oh yeah, and most of the contradictions you sited were a joke. Anyone with just a little bit of Biblical knowledge would have known that. I looked through most of them Bible in hand and found none that really threaten the Gospel.

 

Take for example the story of the birth of christ.

I feel terrible for posting this because i cannot remember the names of the gospels, but what im about to say is true:

One Gospel mentions the Star, one does not

One Gospel mentions that they were accompanied by 3 wise men, one does not

One Gospel mentions the long journey that they took to get to Nazareth, one does not

One Gospel mentions that Jesus was born in a manger accompanied with onlookers/animals, one says that he was
born in a simple cave accompanied only by his parents.


And thats just on the birth of Christ

 

And how do you prove ones that have been empowered by satan or god and those that are sleight of hand? How do you prove ones that are by satan versus ones by god for that matter? Oh that's right, you can't...
Opinion. The Simonians, a sect of gnostics, believe they were divinely influenced.
So you do realize you just stated that you believe the bible contradicts right?
Uh not to mention all it takes is ONE seemingly insignificant contradiction and the statement "The bible contradicts itself" is proven to be true. Logical deduction. If an apple is slightly red but not all of it is red, the apple is still red.

 

That's a pretty large step of "FAITH" though, which you base your worldview on... Because, there is still a strong chance that 100 years, or 100 years from then, they still won't know.... and quite possibly "Cannot" know, as it "Could Be" beyond "Reason".

In essence, there is the opportunity that you could be very wrong.... or the opportunity that my perspective could be very wrong indead.... thus we exercise "Faith" in something that currently cannot be "Rationally", or "Scientifically" explained.

To re-enforce your's our my worldview, we use our thoughts based upon evidence in our own lives, or evidence we see in history, or documents of Science, or Faiths of various worldviews... and that's where we are left...

In the end, We Both can't write in this forum the factual and definiative perspective to change people's minds or to SOLIDLY state a Worldview's acuracy or surpremacy....

But, what I know FOR certain.... and even you must admit...

If I'm wrong, I lose nothing, If I'm right, I gain all...

If your wrong, you lose all, if you're right, you gain nothing...

Whether or not you think my beliefs are the byproduct of delusion, or your adopt all the misleading ideas about the Christian worldview which you have posted, If my beliefs are all wrong, and I live my life faithfully and honestly in my worldview's true teachings, I hurt no one... and help so many... and lose absolutely nothing, as I can confidently tell you I've already experienced many of the best things a real lived life can offer through my beliefs and faith.

I live and work in an envirnment that sees the best of what true faith and lived religion can do, aside from the actions of secular society, which largely ignore and destroy lifes, day in and day out...

If I'm wrong, I've lost not a thing that matters in the end... If your wrong.... so much is lost, including yourself.

Heck, my odds aren't that bad.

I MUST SAY I don't do it for the odds... and they aren't a part of my rational consideration.... but well worth considering by others when all these ideals are thrown around...

 

Hmm... so you'd rather be safe than right? Sorry, couldn't help myself...

I don't really think anyone gains or loses anything by winning or losing this debate except a little bit of pride. Oh my! Isn't that a sin for you guys? Maybe you should give up now lest ye sin! Sorry, still couldn't help myself. Getting a bit loopy from lack of sleep...

 

Nah.... I don't believe you are right in any way, but the theology many wish to make simple and discuss without true study isn't the game I'm going to play here... for all the reasons I've stated previously... and we've already come to the ideal that neither of us can conclusively provide all the answers, without faith, to be "Right"

But addressing the idea that, from your perspective, my ignorance has no real consequence, and my beliefs, when lived truely, cause you no true harm, I don't rationally see the reason for such opposition to it from an atheist perspective, as you could just let us "Loonies" run around... once again, from YOUR perspective.

Through Grace and Compassion is the only reason I discuss in this thread, surely not for the pride of ever "Winning", as I truely believe it is "UnWinnable"... and it is demonstrated many times the emotion of the issue surpasses the reality of the issue... and that cheap and mostly uneducated shots are preferred to true depth of knowledge...

I think many Truely wise Atheists, or Truely wise individuals from other respective religions would think this thread, in many ways, and in many posts, a pretty big dissapointment from all perspectives... There's some good stuff in there in bits and pieces for both sides, but mixed in, is a bunch of poo....

If I made a batch of brownies and told you that I only mixed in a bit of poo, would you eat them? Just as with this thread.... there's a bit of good stuff worth thinking about from both ends..... but all the poo thrown in here and there just turns me off to taking any of it in really.

 

I agree. Many don't study theology enough. Especially those in the church community who like to proselytize. And most theologians do not study science enough to form a proper understanding of it. And sadly the combination of the two of those tend to weasel their way into political office.
I would disagree. Your ignorance does have real consequences. It affects the rest of the populace of our country when you vote for religious officials. An aspect that goes against the very constitution of our country. Inserting your religious beliefs into the government infuses morals into the laws of a society that does not, as a whole, agree with them.
I'll let the ignorance and arrogance of that statement slip passed as it never seems to go anywhere anyways...
I would have to agree as I doubt that anyone here is an extensively qualified and experienced theologian or scientist.
Ya know, hostess (and fast food places) does the same thing. But people eat that ____ up! (pun intended) But hey, maybe someone unversed in the arguments may have gotten some extra info or points of view that they may not have previously had. So at least all is not for naught.

 

I see your point about politics, but I don't neccesarily agree that "I" elect people of faith, on principles of faith alone... or that I expect them to enact legislation based solely on a worldview, over enacting legislation that reflects the that of the will of the people in majority.

I'm no republican for sure and could argue that the conservative Christian movement has made poor choices as a whole in their choices of agenda in regards to politics... but I don't believe that true Christianity focuses solely on issues like euthenasia and abortion, while wholing ignoring world aid and compassion and defence of the poor from a political standpoint... as that's what's being played out politically now... and it's not consistent with the true beliefs of Christianity...

But, I could also argue that the political moves of ungodly and unfaithful men have done a significant amount of damage to human rights as well... I really don't think that the political issues related to faith do real faith justice... as I've stated pretty clearly that both the Christian and Aetheistic viewpoints have been perverted and used for political gain... both without too much success....

Using the idea that because of political movements supposedly based on Christianity that have done harm that "my beliefs" do harm isn't correct. It's not an effective arguement, as I can equally say that the political movements supposedly based on Atheism have done harm as well... Does that mean your beliefs are harmful? No...

Watch the steps in logic....

I can easily tell you that the "Faith" you see played out in the political realm in the name of "Christianity", isn't always Christianity, and is, in many ways, the catering to the beliefs of people to gain power by men... which is consistent with history.

What you see played out in politics, and most of what you would refer to when you claim that there is legislation meant to "Harm" or "Hurt" those from the atheist perspective are mostly dissagreements in morality. which brings up some good issues...

Which Morality is the best morality? How do you choose whether my morality or your morality are more worthy from an atheistic viewpoint alone?

 

The morality question is a good one. Overall I think that the vast majority of intelligent people would agree that things like unnecessary killing is wrong. However, when you get into the specifics and extremes things get messy. The topics of abortion and euthanasia are ones that have arguments between people within the atheist groups and within the theist groups themselves. (a topic which we probably shouldn't go too much into I suppose lest we derail the thread)

Who's to say who's morals are right? I think mine are right, you think yours are, yet another person thinks theirs are. I don't care what your morals are as long as you don't force them onto me. I don't agree with foie gras or veal but I do not believe that laws should be passed against them. I think cruelty to animals is wrong, but others might not believe that they have souls or any other myriad of things and I don't feel I have a right to infringe upon their beliefs or lack thereof.

 

HAHA just read this quote on slashdot in the article about the new earthlike exoplanet found.

 

That is a horrible analogy because stamps can be PROVEN to be real. God cannot.

 

Yeah, I know. I just found it to be amusing.

 

Let me just remind everyone that 2000 years ago, the average human lifespan was roughly 22-29 years of age. And those numbers are very forgiving to epidemics, illness, nature, etc.

The average lifespan in the United States in the 1700's was still only in the late 40's to mid 50's. Only do we see dramatic jumps in lifespan towards to middle of the 19th century and thereon.

Yes, people did live into the 80's in the 1700's , but those were people of high society...and even then, that was rare. Ben franklin and john adams lived to be fairly old....but also received medical treatment that was breakthru at the time.
George washing only made it to his 60's...and even he had great medical care. The guy had wooden dentures for Je$u$' sake.

Now, Jesus is believed by most scholars to have died around the age of 30-35. Now, to think that the actual Apostles were writing these things down 20-30+ years after they happened is a very big stretch. it would be nearly unheard of to have 60 year olds all coming from the same circle. Especially ones who can still read and write and so forth.

 

It is more improbable that life has not come from goo and lightening strikes than has come from it. Time and space is infinite, therefore the possibilty of this happening is infinite...which means somewhere (maybe just here but probably not), life has been created by a chain reaction of wild forces.

You cannot say since possiblilities are infinite, therefore it is impossible to not have a god. As you theists have stated many times over and over, god is outside of this realm and does not hold by these standards.

There is a saying most physicists say when talking to a religious nut about these issues. They call people who say that because we cant explain it, god must have done it, people of "Gods and Gaps". These people just fill in blanks with god.

Just because science cant explain something right now, doesnt mean god did it and it certainly doesnt mean we will never explain it.

i dont understand how are argument is so illogical to theists. And to say that a few years of our science cant prove or recreate a few billion years of evolution, therefore god did it, sounds pretty illogical to me.

Every day, scientists make new discoveries that fill in holes in the "Gods and Gaps'' peoples arguments. Maybe one day, probably not in my lifetime, but someday someone will finally fill in one of those big gaps.

 

[quote="backseatchris"]It is more improbable that life has not come from goo and lightening strikes than has come from it. Time and space is infinite, therefore the possibilty of this happening is infinite...which means somewhere (maybe just here but probably not), life has been created by a chain reaction of wild forces.

You cannot say since possiblilities are infinite, therefore it is impossible to not have a god. As you theists have stated many times over and over, god is outside of this realm and does not hold by these standards.
[quote]

Time and space are infinite? Where in the world did you learn that?

 

What gaps? everything is clearly expained in the bible. lol.
evolution is the story with gaps. tons of them!
lets talk about the most important gap. go back in time before anything was here. i dont mean life, i mean anything; like atoms, electrons, elements, scions, or anything. so there is nothing anywhere, and there is no universe or matter or anything, right? so where do all these things come from that cause the big bang? where do these gasses, plasmas ,and protons come from? if nothing was there, how can anything be dense? its like evolution just skips the beginning and starts off with stuff already here.
that right there proves shows your entire theory is flawed. something (not only life, i mean anything) cannot come from nothing.
fill in that gap

 

I guess that one could equally argue that because of our relatively few years of advanced and systematic science, using the best of amazing technology, we cannot still recreate or prove the intricacies of our univerce, if using all our purpose, human direction, and the Science you hold so dear, we cannot yet understand or recreate it, Therefore "Chance" or "Randomness" did it.... sounds at least equally illogical to me....

You got to think... all our thoughts within science are purposed, holding direction, and supported by the best brilliant minds in the world, doing our best to eliminate the negative outcomes as the result of chance and randomness to get positive ones, and THEY STILL CAN'T recreate many of the natural circumstances that "Somehow", chance and randomness just popped out, billions and billions of times over.... that's a pretty illogical step to take...

Whether or not they someday will be able to.... that's a very large step of faith you must take, in something unexplained and currently unobtainable to explain... and which current evidence is showing us that we are still largely unable to and many, many years of our PURPOSEFUL and DIRECTED research, would go by to make it possible...if it even will be.

Believing with all the mind and order we currently have, which is still unable to largely recreate natural circumstances of life, or largely control any aspect of the natural world, that somehow, Chaos, and pure Randomness, have suceeded in doing so, and succeeded billions of times over is a pretty big logical jump.

While I don't believe it's the best arguement for God, I sure as heck believe it's a pretty good logical argument to question pure faith in Science alone.

 

[quote="KahunaBlair"][quote="backseatchris"]It is more improbable that life has not come from goo and lightening strikes than has come from it. Time and space is infinite, therefore the possibilty of this happening is infinite...which means somewhere (maybe just here but probably not), life has been created by a chain reaction of wild forces.

You cannot say since possiblilities are infinite, therefore it is impossible to not have a god. As you theists have stated many times over and over, god is outside of this realm and does not hold by these standards.
Honestly, that is the theory that makes most sense to me.

Space is infinite because of how it is expanding. Our universe is like a balloon. We are a point on this balloon. The balloon is going to keep inflating . Every second more space is "being created" if you want to say that.....but even then thats taking a very dumbed down (and almost incorrect) scientific approach to it all.

While this space is expanding, black holes are eating it up piece by piece. Eventually enough black holes will connect and eat a majority of this balloon.

When these black holes consume enough space, they will be able to catch up to the speed of the expanding universe, and then surpass its speed. Eventually the black holes will reach all the way around this balloon and cover its entire surface. When this happens, the negative space + positive space = 0.

The universe should then "crunch" and deflate back to its original state.

When the black holes have finally reached a point where they are to the smallest amount of anything that anything can be, they literally negate their existance and all of this matter that was being compressed will explode violently (since there is nothing to restrain it). Mathematically this can be infinitely cyclical.

Thats just a crash course right there lol. lets not even go into the multiverse scenario.

 

The current universe may not be the only, or the first to exist. This could be the billionth go around for us for all we know, covering a span of a googleplex years. And yes, ive always wanted to use the word "googleplex" lol.

People like dave and i are not sitting here telling you we have all of the answers. What you have to think about is that we are rather introducing questions that legitimately and logically negate certain beliefs and traditions or particular religions.

Religion offers material to fill in the gaps of unaswered questons. Science digs the holes in each religions belief system. They will probably go back and forth until end time.

I think what Dave and i are trying to say is that if you want to believe in god , please do so amongst your own thoughts and beliefs. An atheist can provide evidence against many things in modern, established religion. But if a person, intelligent and deep enough, were to come to the realization of god, uninfluenced by all factors in this universe...then truly they may be on to something. But as for now, no human has ever done so.


we dont believe in god. it is unlogical and seems quite magical to us. No human will ever understand a true meaning of god. If god exists and does so outside this existance, then any though of him inside our existance is false and purely man made. Not even god himself could make a human understand. To truly understand god, you would have to be him.

What i am saying is that anything anyone in this universe about god would have to be completely false. If he is what he is, then he is beyond all conception of man. Not even in death would a human understand. We turn to science because it will better our knowledge about all life. Should we ever find intelligent life on another planet, it will be very interesting to study their religion (if they have it).

What if they could offer all the answers we seek? What if they said "we seeded this universe from another" ?

What if they grew the 1st of us, chemically in their enviroment, and planted us here. What if they had proof of it and had recorded every moment of life from begining to present on this planet?

Would you still be willing to give up your religion..even if they literally had the answer to every question you threw at them?

It is ok to believe in things, but at some point, you really have to think about what your believing in and why.