No Christians in the Old Testiment. No Christ yet.

 

Too bad the real world does not work that way. By supporting the fringe you become part of the fringe. By refusing to distance yourself from those who kill in the name of god (for example) you are part of a group that condones killing.
I feel that "true" christians would denounce Bush (again, for example) and those who pervert the bible to further their own agenda.


Again, you are part of the problem if you do not distance yourself from the "koo-koos". You end up destroying your own religion that way. How would the rest of America know you do not support the views spewed forth by Bush unless you come out and say, "We denounce Bushs stance on ___ marriage…." blah, blah,blah.

 

I hardly feel that this discussion about the Environment is a necessary forum for me to throw my political beleifs in anyones face. My ideals differ from that of the president's, I feel that this was implicit in my post, if not then I apologize for being unclear. I also obviously am not in support of anyone who commits radical acts in the name of religion. However, I don't think it is necessary for me to denounce the president. It is possible for two people to have disagreeing political ideologies and not be at war. There is no need for me to spit agressive politics, and make this a battle of good vs. evil. This is a tactic used by the extreme end of the right wing, and its interesting to see someone who I am guessing is liberal use this agressive tactic. Listen to your self, "if you don't denounce it you support it." You sound like Bush's excuse for invating the Iraq based on 9/11. Your argument totally weekens the liberal cause. This agressive politics would so take away from my message of christianity being about love for God and my fellow Man. Instead of spreading that message, I would be creating hostility with those who do not share my politics.

And saying that that's not how the real world works. Since when do Liberals care about how the world works. In the 60s and seventies, we were about changing how the world works for the better, not adjusting our politics to fit the current sad state of affairs. The same way my views on religion have caused you to ignore my message about taking care of the environment, is the same way spitting heavy left politics would cause those who share my views on christian love and protecting the environment to miss my point based on differences in political ideologies. Lets try to stay focus on what really matters. This dicussion has nothing to do with ___ marrage, or abortion etc.

 

I don't denounce Bush's stance on ___ marriage. Marriage was invented by God. It is a union of one man and one woman. That's the way it should be.
That list you posted above...all the things the "religious right" is pushing for...contains a few things that are pretty far fetched. It also contains a few things that I agree with. Abortion is murder. I do not think any civilized society should condone the slaughter of helpless unborn babies. A "woman's right to choose" is a woman's right to commit murder. I would be dead set against abortion even if I were an athiest. It's sickening.

 

Thanks for helping to prove my point.

You do not want people who do not believe in the same religion as you to have a choice regarding having a baby or not having one. This is my biggest problem with the christian conservatives is they want to take away freedom of choice from women regarding abortion.

You have the right to not have an abortion (I know youre male,just saying....) as much as Susy Q. down the block has a right to have an abortion.

You can do what you want, and can teach your family/friends to follow in your footsteps. What you cannot do is force everyone to follow "your" set of rules.

 

-they would turn our nation into a "christians only" theocracy
No, they would just try to spread the word of God to those who would listen, not force people to become a christian

-theyd take away the freedom of speech
Why would they do that? The bible says nothing of the freedom of speech. The bible teaches free will

-theyd remove a womans right to choose to have an abortion
As it should be. Killing a child is murder. Murder is bad.

-theyd make it difficult to obtain reliable birth control
If you aren't married, you shouldn't need birth control. If you are married, part of your responsibility is to have children and raise them with christian values. No need for birth control either way.

-theyd attempt to frighten children with inaccuracies about sex, disease, and pregnancy
No clue where you got this idea?

-theyd bring religion into schools and teach it openly
What's wrong with that? If they posted the 10 commandments on the walls of schools and made children learn it, kids might grow up to be better. It couldn't be any worse than the spoiled, disrespectful children in schools today.

-they'd denounce evolution and return us to a point where nobody challenged "creation science"
I think both ways should be taught in schools. Creation as well as evolution. There is the facts to back up evolution and the complexity of life points to creationism.

-fear and paranoia would reign supreme
Why? Religion is proven to reduce both of those. It makes people content with what they have and motivates them to help others. If anything, religion teaches you not to fear anything (except God himself). And where did paranoia come from?

-atheism, paganism, and even agnosticism would be deemed illegal
Again, it wouldn't be deemed illegal. Religions simply try to show you their side of things. If you don't want to believe them, its your own problem. You are given free will to do whatever you want, but religion gives you suggested guidelines to live a better life.

Now, I would like to say that I was brought up in a Catholic home...going to Church every Sunday and such. Since I moved out several years ago, I haven't gone to Church very much...usually, only when I am visiting my parents on the weekends. I believe there are a lot of contradictions in the Bible and in the Catholic religion. I am trying to sort these things out in my mind before I get back into religion. I enjoy descussions because it spurs my mind to think about which side of the line I am on when it comes to religion vs. government, science, evolution, or anything else that is pitted against religion. I am actually undecided on where I stand regarding religion.

Lets keep this thread clean and keep going with the discussion.

 

Well you should not be surprised that christians all get lumped together then...because of that attitude right there. You are too afraid of weakening your message that you let the "koo-koos" run the show.

1) No, I understand and support your views on the Earth. To me, that is our biggest issue in the world because the Earth gives everyone on this planet life.

2) Its not about "adjusting your politics" but about taking back a religion that was stolen from you (unless you support Bush and his policies).

3) For the record, I am neither liberal or conservative...I despise both equally becasue they are two sides of the same coin, neither one wants to improve our situation, but simply "move up the ladder".

 

Ehh.. we are all going to die anyhow.. its going to be next to impossible to ever revert back to the early days of living.. people have become dependent on such things as gasoline and oil driven vehicles.. etc. etc. It bothers me, but the human race is very capiable of adapting to situations.. technology is constantly evolving, we are too.. man finds ways around things, and they also find ways to deal with things..

 

What's this have to do with religion? As I said, I'd be against abortion even if I were an athiest. It's killing an innocent person and it's horrifying. You keep calling it a "right to choose". Well where is the baby's choice? Like Ronald Regean said: "I couldn't help but notice that everyone who if for abortion has already been born". You keep wanting to make that about religion. It's just plain human decency.

 

1) Really? And not use force? A quick look at recent history proves that statement wrong.

2) But the religious right (RR) dont want freewill as it confuses the sheep into thinking for themselves. For the christian religion to flourish, it cannot have independent thinkers.

3) Thanks for proving my point.

4) Thanks again for proving my point.

5) The RR wants to focus on abstinence as the ONLY acceptable sex education topic. Again, this shows RR want to strip away freedom of choice.

6) Becasue of a little document called the constitution. Something about a seperation of church and state.

7) I am in agreement with that staement. Both should be taught.

I would love to see such "proof". A look at history proves otherwise.

9) HA!! Interesting fact though...christianity stole a lot of their ideas from pagan traditions (i.e. christmas). You know, the part about one one God, in heaven, whose Son, born of a virgin, came to earth as a man, was baptized, performed miracles, established a holy meal for his followers, died, rose again on the third day for the salvation of mankind, remember the pagan origins of each of these myths and rituals. All of that predated Christianity by hundreds of years.

The core of Christianity -- the worship of a dying Godman who is resurrected, ascends into heaven and brings salvation to mankind -- was also the core of a number of ancient Pagan religions that began in the Near East two thousand years before Jesus.

Christian theology borrowed more than the archaic myth of the dying-resurrected Godman. Initiation by baptism, communion with the God through a holy meal that represented the flesh of the dead God, the Holy Spirit, monotheism, and immortality of the soul were all core beliefs of many ancient faiths. They were simply part of ancient Mediterranean culture.

Christianity also borrowed elements of Jesus' mythology: the virgin birth, the miracles (including turning water into wine, walking on water, and especially healing the sick) were all common elements of pre-Christian Pagan religions. Mithras had 'em. So did Dionysus, Attis, Osiris, and Orpheus. And more. And they had them centuries before Christianity was a twinkle in Saint Paul's eye.

 

What about the mothers choice? She should not have a say as to what will happen to her body? What of rape? Should she be forced to have the child then?

No one is forcing you to have an abortion. If you are aganist it, dont get one...plan and simple.

It is religious in nature because it is mainly those of religious faith that take issue with abortion. Most people feel it should be a decision left to the mother, hence R vs. W. The people spoke out in favor of choice, and religion trys to take away that choice. Once again, religion as anti-freedom of choice.

 

Sure, but when she's pregnant, she's no longer only affecting her own body. That baby has it's own body with it's own heartbeat and dreams. It deserves a chance at life. If you don't want it, put it up for adoption.
In all honesty, I have a hard time with that one. My wife and I have had this discussion and I know for us personally, my wife would never have an abortion under any circumstances. As far as how I would like to see the laws changed, I'd be willing to give in on cases of rape or incest. Only because if, by giving in on that one, it would illiminate the millions of other abortions, it would be a HUGE step in the right direction.

The same thing could be said for murder or theft. Should we make that legal too? After all, those are commandments from God.

 

What if Hitlers mother would have aborted him? Is one life worth more than millions of lives?


And back to the topic at hand, that would mean millions of additional people on the Earth which is reaching its critical mass. If Earth is a gift from god, why would you want to destroy his gift by overburdening it?


See, once again you are imposing YOUR belief system (in reality a Pagan belief system) onto the world.

But to answer your question, murder is already legal.

Murder can be justified in my mind. Murder is often times a means of self-defense....is self defense wrong to you? An eye for an eye. A tooth for a tooth.

 

Edit for double post

 

What if Einstein's mother aborted him? What about Henry Ford, Steve Jobs, and the list goes on?

Even with rape, there is still a child inside of the mother. It is still killing a life. It would be the same as me being able to kill anyone I wanted to because I didn't want to meet them. It happened, a child is inside of the mother, why does that make it any worse of a person than you or me. It isn't the baby's fault it is there, so why kill it. There are so many people in this world that want to have children but can't. Have the baby and give it up for adoption. The mother doesn't have to raise an unwanted child, the child gets to live and possibly better the world, and a couple's dreams come true because they get a child. I am very much pro-life....babies are pro-life too.

 

Huh? Is that really the argument you want to pose? It doesn't make any sense at all.

One of the biggest problems we are going to be facing in the next 30 years is that we will have a huge population of elderly (retired) and very few younger people to care for them and foot the bill. I suppose you'll want to kill them too. After all, they're a burden...right. More people means more workers and more taxpayers.

So you want murder and theft to be legal? And please explain (with verifiable facts) what you mean when you keep saying that my belief system is actually a pagan system.

Killing and murder are two different things. Soldiers kill during war. A homeowner may kill an intruder. That's not the same as premeditated murder.

 

If I want my country to believe all life is sacred and that abortion is murder, and if I'm going to argue this without Christian or other religious doctrine to support my country's laws, should we then argue that women caught with nicotine, alcohol or any other drug deemed dangerous to the unborn child in their system should be placed in protective custody until the baby is delivered?

What penalties should the mother face for delivering a baby with an addiction or drug-related birth defect?

And what about global warming?

 

http://flood.firetree.net

NASA projections on the effects of global warming induced sea-level rise overlaid on to google maps.

Florida and the Netherlands are fizuked...

 

Oh great.....there goes New Orleans again. And we just spent billions rebuilding it.

 

Did we? So everybody's okay there now?

Way to go Bush!!!!