Hello. I'm sorry to barge in this heated discussion, but there are things you guys are not taking into account. And please don't tell me that you all know this, because how can you talk about who's quickest in drag racing without EVEN mentionig Trap Speed. You can't take ET as the truth of all things. This explanation is assuming that neither car is wearing slicks, but their stock tires.

1/4 mile racing is a measure of how well and how quick one can cover a certain amount of space(In this case 1320 ') vs time. That being said you have to understand that the most important aspect of drag racing is the 60' mark. Because so many cars are so different in their power delivery the technique, and not necessarily the Power will dictate how low your ET will be. For example Honda's being low in Torque, you have to launch them, i.e. spin your tires until you hook up in the VTEC powerband. At first the car is moving slowly, but is like a rubber band effect. When the tires bite with traction you start moving quickly. A car like the S/C Tc can't be launched that way of course, or you'll be at the start forever. You use the Torque as your advantage, and you want full traction of the line and let your Torque move the car toward your 60' line. Now after this everything else is academic. You'll change gears until the end of the run.

And this is the kicker. If you mess up bad your 60' time a slower car can post a better ET, BUT the TRAP SPEEDS are much more consistent. A poorly driven 2000 Mustang Cobra was posting 13.99 @101.3 mph as best ET of the day. The owner, my brother, let me drive it on the same night and I posted a best of 13.64 @ 103.5 mph. Notice how not only my ET was better but also my mph. While he wasting time at the line I hooked up much better launching at idle, thus better a better 60', and i was probably changing gears at the correct powerband points, thus the better mph.

In Honda's the more your spin your tires the mph increases. But if you spin too much then ET decreases as your mph increases. For example, In my 99Si(H/I/E, Type R cams and stock clutch with GSR pressure plate) my highest Trap speed was 94.1 mph on a 15.5 run. My 60' time was like a 2.5. On my best run my mph was a 92.25 on a 14.85 run, with a 2.1 60' time. But now bear in mind. Every time I hit 14's my mph is always on the 92 mph range.

Ok, sorry for all this ranting, but here is the big point. In the Si vs S/C Tc comparo both cars posted almost identical trap speed. Without the 60 ' time we don't have the whole story, BUT any experience Drag Racer will interpret this and will tell you that these 2 cars are dead even in the 1/4 mile.

Lastly, one more point why the Trap speed is important. Did you just noticed how I'm 2 mph slower but quicker in ET than these 2 cars? In real life(like a race longer than a 1/4 mile) that would translate into me ahead at the 1/4 mile line and very shortly after that, these 2 cars(06 Si and S/C Tc) will put me back at my place because I will be seeing their tailights. They are moving faster than me so they will catch up and pass me. Another example is the R&T comparo between the 06 Miata and the 06 Solstice. They both did 15.3 or so in the ET. So you can say wow, they are only .2 off the Si and S/C Tc, BUT look at their mph. they posted around 89 mph while the Si and S/C Tc posted 94 mph. So what does that mean? The Miata and Solstice will be at 100 mph at about 21 sec, meanwhile The Si and S/C Tc will be there at around 16.8 sec. So who do you think is moving much faster? Please don't use this explanation with 4wd. A car like a WRX will post a low ET with a not so hot mph because IT HOOKS right there and then. Their trap speeds are about the same as the 06 Si and the S/C Tc.

So if you see somebody on a S/C Tc doing 14's you can be assure than that the Si can do the same time. And the reverse is true too. TRAP SPEEDS don't lie. ET does.

Sincerely;
DrR
PS sorry 4 long post.

 

good post.
And as right as you are; many times it's the seconds that are advertised or talked about, so that's what get's people's attention at first during comparisons. And for anyone running a car on those special "closed courses" out in the country; hell it could be a quarter mile, could even be more( depending on the road/ i mean track ) and in real time racing sometimes the quickest guy does not end up winning at the end. Anyone who ever ran a car with 4.11 or lower axle ratios knows what i'm talking about there....
And for anyone running a modded engine, without much time/design/money spent on strenghtening the drivetrain itself ( meaning trans, etc ): a bit of wheel spin is not always a bad thing. Unless that car is bulletproof from the get go, when the clutch dumps something needs to give. Much better to spin a tire, then an axle ( i'm sure that goes without saying here, but thought i'd toss it out anyways ).

 

Ok um... this might just ____ off some ppl but i could care less. For 1 thing my girlfriend has owned a Scion TC since the day it hit the showroom floor @ the Toyota dealer here in Florence S.C. @ the time i had a Black 2000 Civic Si (that i still own) it had 3 mods @ the time (Mugen 4 into1 header/Greddy cat-back exhaust/AEM CAI). My GF has been raceing imports since her 1st car (a 94 Acura Integra LS) that blew due to prolonged nitrous use lol... Anyways we decided as soon as she had access to a CAI header & exhaust we would line them up @ the strip. I would not race her until then cuz i dont believe in raceing a stock car vs. a modded car (I think its unfair). Well the day came that she had the proper mods. Hell she even put them on! Thats right a cool chick thats into cars! <3 my girl lol. Back to the point shall we. We raced a total of 4 times with the same results each time. My Si won by around 2 car lengths each time... keep in mind both these cars have around 144 hp to the wheels stock. And the engine in the TC is just a Celica engine with less hp. Dissheartened my G/F told me to drive the TC and she would drive the civic. The results where the exact same. So we decided to Turbo my Civic and Supercharge her TC. I would tune the Civic to the same hp range as her TC and we would see the outcome. After some time i was able to work the kinks out of my car and tuned it to 2 hp below her TC (around 223 hp @ 5 psi) and we headed to the track again. I had made the prediction that the TC would beat me due to the imediate power gain from the Supercharger and the fact i would have to deal with boost lag till around 3500 rpm. Well i was wrong very wrong infact... The TC did infact pull me off the line but once i hit boost it was as if I just rocketed past the TC. I felt bad for my G/F she had her hopes so high for the Supercharger... So did I really. but sadly it didnt seem to make the TC "ridiculously fast" as so many ppl claimed. And after i took the B16a2 back out of my Si had the block sleeved and new pistons/rod crank ect installed and upped the boost to 26 psi it wasnt even a contest anymore... Well time has past and I just picked up my new 06 Si on 1/5/06 and to say the least ITS FAST AS A **** STOCK!!!!1 The acceleration is insain for a stock n/a 4 banger. The cornering is out of this world due to the LSD. And the sound system is the best ive heard from any of the cars we have had. So far I modded a cpl things on it like I took a RSX ram-air intake and modded it to fit the Si i also ran a Custom Mandrel bent pipeing exaust (no crush bends thank you ^_~) No header yet cuz I hear that the RSX header wont fit due to the tight engine bay space. So we decided to take the new Si & the TC out for a few little test. 1st test was the cornering test (keep in mind her TC has aftermarket suspension). It was no contest the Si destroyed the TC in cornering with both her and me testing it. We both race in SCCA so dont try saying we cant corner properly >.> Seemed like with the Supercharger the TC was overpowering in the turns loseing alot of time from loseing grip (much like my last Si after I turbocharged it). Next test was the Drag test. A very good friend of mine is part owner's of the Dragstrip in Darlington S.C. which is a good thing considering it was closed for the winter. So he let us in for a few runs down the strip. Well much to my surprise the 06 Si actually held its own with 2 wins and 3 loses each win/loss was only by 2-3 tenths of a second nothing big. So there you have it.... You can either keep argueing which is stupid or... You can accept the facts. The Si is plainly a better buy than the TC in so many ways.

1: TCs go for around 16,000 The Si I got for 20,000
to make a TC be able to outrun or keep up with a 06 Si you HAVE to have a Supercharger so that makes your 16,000 doller TC more like 19,000

2: The Si can out corner the TC any day of the week & to make the TC be able to corner near as good as the Si does stock your gonna have to update the suspension so now that 16,000 doller price tag sits around 20-21,000 and thats not even touching the sound system...

So in the end I wouldnt even put the TC in the same class as the 06 Si its more in the class as the last gen Si or the 99-00 Si but the new Si has blown it away. Sad but true... Oh and about the comment about the Scion TC being "More respected on the road" thats the biggest pile of BS ive ever heard... For 1 my friend the Si has been around 4 times as long as the TC and will still be here long after its disscontinued....
That being said the TC will have to be around a heck of a long time (alot longer than the several years its ben available) to be more respected than the Si. For 2 have you forgotten what car it was that even started the import tuneing BOOM out of the westcoast? Thats right it was the civic! The TC wasnt even on the drawing board yet... So plz think before you speak. Not doing so only makes you look stupid...

 

interesting post; and you make your test points well. Keep in mind though, unless i'm mistaken here, your 00 civic that was first compared is about 300 pounds lighter then the TC. Figuring mods will weigh the same when added to each car ( sc & turbo plumbing, suspension on each, wheels, etc ) having the same hp in a car several hundred pounds lighter will give you the edge. Same thinking as in the muscle car era--add hp, drop pounds, and away you go. But that just gets you the win. If your 00 & her TC weigh the same, then the results are more important here.
Any of my posts have tried to stick up for the opinions ( or at least the right to speak them ) presented by both sides, whether i agreed or not. And all this started with one mag test; much more will be decided on the pavement. If the Honda beats you, then acknowledge it and move on. And if the TC wins, those Honda boys should do the same.
And i'm not pushing running on the street; any wisdom I may have picked up over the years was learned from the many stumbles & falls along the way ( and someone upstairs really watching over me ). The night I ran the v8 Pinto over the monza ( & a camaro as well--running 3 wide on a main drag is really stupid now ) we pulled over afterwards to talk to the guys, show off the car, etc. Well, friend forgot to put the hood pins back in when he closed the hood on his car. A couple blocks down we pulled next to a big block mopar, thinking now we have a real race. Thankfully we noticed the officer pulling up on the side street, so we just putted away. Going by the main crowd ( cruising was legal in the old days ), up flies the hood. Going 25, the only damage done was cracking the hood scoop, and some major embarrasment. But if that came up at triple digits, it would have become a 3 foot square frisbee flying thru the air. And that could have been disaster ( like I said, someone was watching over me/us ). Point being--keep it safe. Best to do this on the track; and if you can't, please keep it away from bystanders......
And back to billyshift: the best thing i take away from your post is not the results or the opinions; but that your girl is also into cars and can handle her own--that's what I find cool in there.

 

Haha much love man. I 2 agree that street raceing isnt so much a good idea ive had alot of friends get hurt pretty bad. In what seemed a "fun race gone bad" any and all testing we do is done off street away from anyone that could potentially get hurt. I totally agree with you> I just wish there where more ppl like us. That cared about safety. As far as the TC I have alot of respect for the car. In the time that it has been out it has gained a strong following and quite a good bit of aftermarket parts. I like the styleing of it also my G/F is still considering a kit or not she has a nice set of wider 18" rims to give her more grip with the charger. It was needed lol. All in all I was mainly trying to say that the Si is a great preformer and that just because someone is baised they shouldnt put up an opinion that isnt true just to make them feal better about there car. Oh and my G/F appriciated the props :D

 

oh, and to be honest, neither the TC w/ the sc or the new SI is amazingly fast. Both are strong performers out of the box ( regardless of what anyone feels is stock ), but both run maybe hi 14's to low 15's. That can be a fun car, but fast is an older Honda hatch with a motor transplant and nos, a Camaro with a v8 pumping 400hp, or even some of the tc's elsewhere on this site running turbo and nearing 300hp. Those types of cars are fast. I'm thinking if many here wanted to go as fast as possible when buying a new car, it mainly depended on the size of the budget. You can take an SI or TC well into the low/mid 20's after add-ons at the dealer ( ie accessories, dealer mark ups, etc )--that's getting you close to other cars that will run these off thr road ( stang gt, srt-4, etc ). Point is these 2 cars in discussion both are nice runners from the start, giving you different platforms to work with. But neither are race cars... yet...

 

Very true, not to mention its going to be a VERY long time before either of these engine platforms reach the size that the aftermarket has grown to for the B-series. Thats the main problem with the Scion TC there just isnt a huge lineup of aftermarket parts yet. Well same can be said for the K-series there are alot of parts but not much in the way of variaty...

 

geez, i open up my Sunday paper; and the cover of the auto page is .......the new Si.
Boy, you Honda lovers are a persistant bunch!!! First you buy off the Speed mag writer, then the local papers??? WOW..... what's next???
You know, these sites should be kept light hearted; they are just cars after all.
Besides me telling all to enjoy these car times with all the offerings from the manu's; this internet really can be a huge help in researching a car for mods. Hell, all we had was maybe Hot Rod mag, hitting a car show, and some trial & error on your own. No one had any idea on what another car could run, until you met up with it at a light. Now all you need is a few clicks and there you go.
You all have a great day, and remember if you pull up next to an SI, don't even ackowledge them, they are not worthy.....

ok, just kidding. just relax. Time for me to line up for my meds again....

 

lmfao great stuff. It was like that when the TC 1st came out also. TC this TC that. My gurl was eatting it up of course lol. Now if only I can get greddy to find a way to fit a turbo in that rabbit hole they call an engine bay on the new Si O.o

 

I have driven the si and it’s a real nice car I like the interior but I don't like the material of the seats. All in all I still love my Tc and won't be trading it in for a civic. But if I wasn't over seas and it was out I probably would have gotten it only because all my friends have Acura and Hondas and they all are quick na cars and we know more about Hondas then Toyota engines.

 

i acutally looked it up. lol. seems interesting. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0463985/

 

Yeah, it's kinda nice owning a car that is not a "dime a dozen".

i thought that earlier post about F&F3 was a joke ( sorry ); somethings just need to be left alone. I enjoy good car movies, but in F&F1, when the 10 sec charger takes what seems eternity to run his last race to the rr tracks..... oh well.
I almost forgot how many times Jason came back in his movies......

I can see the headlines now:
coming soon: " F&F4, revenge of the soccer moms." Introducing the new Dodge Evo-van, powered by Mitsu, while still seating 7.....

 

So this thread has gone from hating my posts to people actually agreeing with me.. Interesting.

Yes, neither car is amazingly fast but i don't think anyone on here believes either/or is amazingly fast. It's all about potential, and what you get straight off the lot imo. I could go on, but the latest posts some of the points others have made were the points i have been making on this thread.

Both are great cars for the money, Si is just a better performance potential platform than the tC is. Not to say tC doesn't have potential, but yeah.

 

Attention Wh@re ^^^^^^

ijoke, i joke, i kid i kid

lol

 

I'd say my time on this thread has neared it's end, as there's not much else to say. I've tried to stick up for a few of you who are on the SI side of things ( regardless if I agreed with your takes on the info or not--your opinions should be welcome ), & tried to point out why I/we in my home are on the TC side of the fence. I've also rambled on ( & on& on & on ) some times about stories that may or may not have had a bearing on this thread; but hell it's always fun to reminisce about the olden days.
I'll look forward to jumping in on the next one; thanks for listening to my posts.

 

Billyshift, You make some very interesting points but the celica and tc dont share the same engine at all, and the tc supercharger is centrifigul so there isn't instant boost like a roots type charger......

Makes me wonder....

 

Hmmm in any case a supercharger builds boost much faster than a turbo. A roots style charger replaces the existing intake manifold while a centrifugil charger keeps it. No matter it still is more torque driven than hp driven like turbo's and in my opinion Vtec engines react well to turbochargeing because of the long powerband we have. And yes the TC engine is the same exact engine platform as the Celica just not as fast nor refined.

 

a celica has a 2ZZ, the tC a 2AZ, both very different engines

 

First,, let me say hello. Looks like this is a fine board! I picked up a link to this from another board,, yeah know those Honda peeps.

I dont own a Si or a tC. I own a Accord and Civic. Ive driven Si and tC. Straight up stock the Si just whoops the crap out of tC. Put a blower on tC and you have a very fun and drivable car indeed.

When I launched into this last car buying spree, Toyota and Honda where it. Nothing else need be looked at. Both camps have great cars! It came down to dealers. I wanted a family sedan and a coupe. I really liked Camry and tC. The Toyota dealers where the very worst dealers I'd ever delt with in my life. Close behind was Hondas racket tiers. I had given up and was having nightmares over ending up at a Ford dealer. Then a friend turned me on to a wonderful honda dealer. Bought a Accord. Sorry Camry. The rest is history.

I really liked the tC. A great car with a good price point. And reminded me of Accord Coupe. The dual sunroofs. where alittle GMish for me. Left a uneasy feeling... Like,, look up here,,, no,, dont look over there. Kinda thing. All and all a very refined car.

All said and done I ended up with a Civic EX Sedan, 5MT, Navi. Im sure I would be as happy or happier if I'd bought a tC or Si. But MSRP on Si and the god awful adders dealers are putting tC like paint protectant, pin strips and other useless goodies that push the price up. Was a no go.

The comparison should have been tC and EX Coupe. There given the critira used in the Si , tC comparison would have been tC straight up. I think its bruteish engine would have carried it. Not to slame the engine in my Civic. It does ok for 140hp and is a pleasure to drive. Its pure honda and enjoys being above 4k rpm.

I wish the Toyota dealers would have wanted to sell cars as much as my Honda dealership wanted to. There could have been two Yotas in the driveway right now.

Ive enjoyed this thread and the passion desplayed in it.
Good luck
psy

 

what are you talking about bro, the celica engine is a 1.8l engine the 2az is 2.4...

nevermind man.