I've noticed a number of companys dont sell their turbo setups with a way to correct ignition timing. Like ZPI sells their kit with emanage, but no ignition correction harness? How are people running this without blowing up their motors in a very short time period? Running emanage without any ignition correction and larger injectors you will be at more than stock wot ignition timing under boost ! I've read that scions dont have a knock sensor, but instead pull timing based on afr's read off their stock wideband o2 sensor. Well if the afr's are fine and the timing is still way high then you are pretty much in deep ____. I tuned a friend's scion the other day with a zpi kit and the ignition correction harness he bought and we were able to pull out at least 9* of timing at full boost(9psi) before noticing any loss at all on the butt dyno. Hopefully we will get it on a real dyno soon to fine tune the timing curve.

 

They sell it without the ignition correction harness but it does have a base map that includes a timing map. Also there is a knock sensor but it is not the only factor in ignition timing. If there is enough knock it will pull timing all the way to 0 deg BTDC. Most tC's that run less than 12 AFR at WOT are probably running 10 to 12 deg timing while stock is over 20 deg.

 

I've been logging ignition timing with my Stage 0 and the ECU is already pulling timing all on it's own. When the car was NA the ecu was running on average 25-deg advance on the timing when on the go -now it's running 15's with 6 PSI on the throttle body. I think the ECU is actually keeping up with what's going on since the MAF is basically telling the ECU that it's pushing more air than it ever could before. Now fuel correction -That's another deal.

 

I really wish I knew what ya'll were talking about because it sounds important. I feel like Im reading a Physics book or something.

 

sohc_mshue, we have to share emanage maps. I'm loggin A/F with my emanage at it's funny when you can see the ECU actually figthing my MAF partial throttle correction map -So I had to change my strategy. I did get the ECU to change over to Open loop faster by cranking up the MAF signal 25% arround the 3200 RPM mark at 30% TPS and above. Still need to do more tweaking but I'm getting close. Just need to refine it on the edges.

 

its impossible for the emanage to come with a timing basemap when you have no timing correction harness. The emanage needs to be wired into your ignition wires to be able to make any changes to the timing except for lowering maf signal which only raises timing.

If they do have a knock sensor then that explains it though. I read that its only pulling timing based on o2 feedback. If there was no timing correction then people would blow their ____ up left and right haha.

 

yea i've noticed the ecu do some weird stuff around 3200 rpms when i was tuning that tc. We finally fixed his problem with it running way lean in lower gears and rich in high gears. He sais he changed some vac lines or something. I'm not really sure how that would have affected it, but for some reason now the afr's stay pretty consistent in different gears. Once he gets the greddy pressure sensor hopefully we can get part throttle fixed because any part throttle boost at anything less than full throttle is waaay lean.

 

Knock sensors only cause the ecu to pull timing when they see knock. At that point, it could be to late.

 

yea i know thats why i still dont like the fact that people are running with no ignition harness. But that knock sensor is probably the only thing saving people's engines from grenading. Most stock knock sensors are pretty sensitive anyways.

 

The tC has the ability to pull timing based on AFR. This is the luxury of having a stock wideband.

Our stage 0 is a perfect example if this. Any one who data logs will see this info is accurate.

 

I'm not sure about that... AF ratios are the same on the wideband before and after Forced Induction. Very little changes in some areas. I have even used emanage to add more fuel and lower the AF but I have not seen an increase in ignition timing from the ECU. What I have seen is that the MAF signal is like twice what it used to be when the car was NA -Which makes sense. I wonder if this is what the ECU is looking at and lowering the timing accordigly. What do you guys think?

I've been looking over my logs and I have discovered an ignition dump past 3200 RPM while accelerating for the first time since I installed the Stage 0. This happened when running a MAF correction map (adding more fuel) with emanage blue. Wondering if I'm doing more harm than good trying to tune partial throttle without the pressure input. I'm starting to think that resetting the ECU with a toggle switch may be my best bet until I can get the injector harness installed and gain more control with emanage. You know if the TRD flash could be removed I would consider this with the larger injectors a workable solution. It would probably work better than emanage at this point.

 

who care if its pulling timing based on afr when your already running a safe 11.5:1 afr, but havent pulled any timing to compensate for boost? At that point an ecu that pulls timing based on o2 feedback isn't gonna save your engine. Obviously the ecu isn't gonna pull any timing if you have an afr in the 11's.

 

well thats one of the reasons you use a higher octane gas when boosted...

 

trust me 93 octane pump gas isn't gonna save your engine when your not running any timing retard whatsoever for boost.

 

Okay, here is some data. This is a Stage 0 running in a closed track environment...

I'm currently injecting 10% methanol distilled water solution down-stream of the turbo. Water/Meth Injection is running of a stand-alone MAP sensor.

I disconnected the battery last night -hooked it back up and let the car idle. Then I drove to the closed circuit track and logged this data... This data is with a fresh ECU that has all learnt fuel trim data erased.

Small plots are from emanage-blue that is being fed A/F by a PLX M300. The large plot is from my ODB2 scanner/logger Autotap. I get updates every 1.1 seconds with the data that I'm recording. The less data the quicker I can refresh the data. No corrections are being made by emanage it's basically only datalogging in this case.

I can get my servo actuated throttle to go from 0 to 5V with the engine off (IGN on). Once the ECU takes over it clamps it at 80.1% open and with foot off the throttle and engine running I get about 16-17% TPS.

So when emanage says 80% throttle then this is basically wide open throttle for my car. I need to adjust my thorrtle throw on emanage setup screen so that it matches the odb2.







This basically shows the car switching over from closed-loop to open loop and adjusting long-term fuel trims down 5%. It also shows the AFR at 13.5 WOT at the peak torque RPM range this from what I can tell is the most important spot in the power curb and the area of most possible engine damage.

When the ECU is allowed to learn the turbo (takes about 3 days) it will lean the car out more and more until are boosting with A/F of 14.7:1 or leaner and will hold it longer and longer into the RPM curb until the car transitions into open loop.

I will post some plots of this latter this week.

Hope this helps to answer some questions on how our ECU handles a Stage 0 with no management.

 

What would be ideal is to tune it by a Greddy Map sensor. I switched from TPS to MAP and the difference was night and day for a smooth tune.

13+ AFRs are too lean for boost above 5psi. And you definately want to make sure your WOT fuel trim ALSO has ignition timing pulled back. Your partial throttle is always adjusting but your WOT is fixed. That being said, make sure you have a good tune at WOT or you could be damaging your motor very quickly.

 

I have witnessed this personally and have some dyno graphs I can post that shows a un-corrected car at 6psi running 14:1 afr's under full boost in the midrange, and only tapering down to a safe afr, imo, above 5000+rpms. I'll see if I can get these up some time tomorrow.

Charles

 

Here are the specs from the service manual for the tC. Stock injectors flow max 92cc in 15 seconds so that basically is a 370cc injector upper end to 304cc lower end of the spectrum.

According to RC Injectors website this injector (370cc) is good for 160HP which matches the rated stock output of the tC. For a turbo charged 4-cylinder engine capable of 225HP you will need at least a 440cc injector. Which also makes sense as this is the injector size included with the supercharger kit on the tC.

Okay -I'm seeing the writing on the wall I need new injectors 440cc and the injector harness for emanage if I'm going to have any plans of keeping my engine latter this year... You got to pay to play!!!

I mean I'm running water/meth and that will help with detonation -but A/F need to me under my control not an ECU that is hell-bent on running stoichiometric air fuel ratios well past 3000 RPM's!

Oh, and back on the ignition timing question (back to topic) here is the tC engine running timing advance with no Forced Induction