question bout 6psi untuned
08-22-2009, 08:21 PM
#43
sorry to bring this tread back from the dead and i know the op already got rid of his turbo. i was looking at kits and this one threw me off a bit it. this quote is straight from the treadstone website
"Update:We do not recommend Greddy emanage with our kit. Our kit is professionally tuned with our engineered velocity stack mass air flow adapter and flow match fuel injectors. The piggy back system is highly over-rated, and in some case will ruin the ECU of your car, or cause poor running and idle conditions. Quote, jrodtc of scionlife, "Car is running great! I was using the emanage to tune my car but ended up selling it because it was a piece of poop."
this kit is a t3 runing 7psi saying to just use 93 octane gas.
some one shine some light on this for me please.
"Update:We do not recommend Greddy emanage with our kit. Our kit is professionally tuned with our engineered velocity stack mass air flow adapter and flow match fuel injectors. The piggy back system is highly over-rated, and in some case will ruin the ECU of your car, or cause poor running and idle conditions. Quote, jrodtc of scionlife, "Car is running great! I was using the emanage to tune my car but ended up selling it because it was a piece of poop."
this kit is a t3 runing 7psi saying to just use 93 octane gas.
some one shine some light on this for me please.
08-23-2009, 07:49 AM
#45
What are the specific untuned engine-killing conditions encountered when running 6psi on a 2AZ-FE engine with a 2007+ Denso ECU? I've found that the ECU can adjust IDC 20% for larger injectors to maintain 14.7:1 afr in closed loop and my 440cc open loop afr starts at 10:1 in vacuum and never gets leaner than 12:1 at 6psi with the stock fuel system. OBDII datalogging with ScanXL has shown relatively unchanged EGTs with and without the turbo, zero misfire count and the only issue to date is a P0101 (MAF out of range). Tuning is always a good idea but IMO "Boost & no tune = Fail" is an erroneous blanket statement when dealing with modern adaptable ECUs and low boost.
08-23-2009, 09:24 AM
#46
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Anything can happen: wastegate sticks, MAF max out due to boost spike, EGT's become higher, Unknown issues until you disasseble the engine and find the stock knock sensor pulled too much timing and pushed EGT's really high. This can happen in tuned engine as well but with a piggyback or standalone you have a little more room for error. Keep in mind just cause its 6psi doens't mean it won't have issues 16G combared to a GT3076R has different properties and the GT3076R will pump more volume than the 16G, size of intercooler pipes 6psi can still mean too much boost for an engine. Would you rather pay 600-1K for a piggy back and tune or 1500 just for a new engine cause you did something really stupid plus the labor it takes to install.
08-23-2009, 02:11 PM
#47
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here is my view of it....
with managment you can keep a degree of a safety margin that you regulate...without it you dont have controll over ish
just an example...
I can set up an fic to dump fuel (not so much that you cause problems) if i hit a boost spike...Iv done this on my own setup which saved my butt when the banjo fitting from my wastegate was left untightend and jiggled loose causing a boost spike to 17-18psi (would have been higher if i wasnt paying attention to my boost guage). Because of the safety margin i set on the fic fuel map i didnt lean out and cause det.....The stock ecu doesnt quit have this abbility.
im a big advocate of engine safety and i dont want to outright tell someone that you can run without engine managment...reality is that you can and has been done plenty of times but there are those that arent that, well, bright enough to watch whats going on.
with managment you can keep a degree of a safety margin that you regulate...without it you dont have controll over ish
just an example...
I can set up an fic to dump fuel (not so much that you cause problems) if i hit a boost spike...Iv done this on my own setup which saved my butt when the banjo fitting from my wastegate was left untightend and jiggled loose causing a boost spike to 17-18psi (would have been higher if i wasnt paying attention to my boost guage). Because of the safety margin i set on the fic fuel map i didnt lean out and cause det.....The stock ecu doesnt quit have this abbility.
im a big advocate of engine safety and i dont want to outright tell someone that you can run without engine managment...reality is that you can and has been done plenty of times but there are those that arent that, well, bright enough to watch whats going on.
08-24-2009, 12:37 PM
#49
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The myth of not being having to use engine or fuel management is horribly incorrect. Fuel and engine management is needed. Any company or person that tries to tell you that adding forced compressed air to a stock engine car that was engineered and programmed N/A, is either trying to deceive you or is ignorant. You can not expect to add forced compressed air without adding fuel and adjusting timing accordingly.
Treadstone alters the MAF sensor's reading by using a piping diameter change to make the car run richer all of the time. This works to an extent, but is far from perfect. Running the stock injectors simply adds duty cycles to them, which will eventually lead to failure of them, then your engine. Merely adding larger injectors to their equation does not work at all either. Pulse widths of the stock 310cc injectors are different than the pulse width of a 550cc injector. (Each opening allows more fuel simply)
Treadstone alters the MAF sensor's reading by using a piping diameter change to make the car run richer all of the time. This works to an extent, but is far from perfect. Running the stock injectors simply adds duty cycles to them, which will eventually lead to failure of them, then your engine. Merely adding larger injectors to their equation does not work at all either. Pulse widths of the stock 310cc injectors are different than the pulse width of a 550cc injector. (Each opening allows more fuel simply)
The stock ECU does not compensate enough with this trick. We explored this option long before Treadstone ever entered the tC market (back in 2005). It only works a bit. It alters LTFTs which in turn causes ECU relearning hay-wire and the car runs excessively rich or ragged lean OR bouncing in AFRs. There is no happy medium. This is where custom fuel and igntion curves make the drive-ability 100% better. This is where the piggyback is essential.
Last edited by BlackKnight; 08-24-2009 at 12:44 PM.
08-26-2009, 02:52 PM
#52
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I just got my dezod kit in and i have a base map but i'm making sure i stay off boost until i get a tune. I hear many bad things can happen from all the shops i've been to. lol. My question is can anything really bad happen if i'm not boosting without a tune? what is a knock and what does it sound and feel like?
08-27-2009, 07:46 PM
#53
meh so much reading!
so i read the turbo faq on there they said that to this day there is no piggy back that can control a/f ratios at partial throttle. so that means all u guys on piggy backs can only tune the a/f ratios at WOT.
whats to say that u wont blow up your car in partial throttle....cuz as far as i know some of these turbos spool really fast. so u cant say u dont make boost unless your at wot.
so even when the piggy back in on is it your stock ecu controling everything until u slam the pedal?
so i read the turbo faq on there they said that to this day there is no piggy back that can control a/f ratios at partial throttle. so that means all u guys on piggy backs can only tune the a/f ratios at WOT.
whats to say that u wont blow up your car in partial throttle....cuz as far as i know some of these turbos spool really fast. so u cant say u dont make boost unless your at wot.
so even when the piggy back in on is it your stock ecu controling everything until u slam the pedal?
08-28-2009, 06:19 AM
#54
I can control my A/F ratios at partial throttle and boost with my F/IC. I don't think the Greddy can do that though. I get 14.5-15 AFR idle and cruising, 12.5 at 0-5 psi on partial throttle, and 11.6 at WOT on 8 psi.
08-28-2009, 03:17 PM
#55
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meh so much reading!
so i read the turbo faq on there they said that to this day there is no piggy back that can control a/f ratios at partial throttle. so that means all u guys on piggy backs can only tune the a/f ratios at WOT.
whats to say that u wont blow up your car in partial throttle....cuz as far as i know some of these turbos spool really fast. so u cant say u dont make boost unless your at wot.
so even when the piggy back in on is it your stock ecu controling everything until u slam the pedal?
so i read the turbo faq on there they said that to this day there is no piggy back that can control a/f ratios at partial throttle. so that means all u guys on piggy backs can only tune the a/f ratios at WOT.
whats to say that u wont blow up your car in partial throttle....cuz as far as i know some of these turbos spool really fast. so u cant say u dont make boost unless your at wot.
so even when the piggy back in on is it your stock ecu controling everything until u slam the pedal?
well actually yes u can control partial throttle with a good tuner (ptunning,dezod) aem fic is the most easiest piggyback touse for partial....resistor mod also makes it easier...
and anyways when u have a turbo even if at partial throttle your making boost....you wont see anything over 6psi under partial throttle ....and well 6psi on the tcs will be compensated for with tons of fuel via the stock ecu
08-28-2009, 04:06 PM
#56
Question about the ecu. I saw on import tuner they "flash" tuned the stock ecu on a 350z to maximize it's bolt ons because it's obdII.
Has anyone tried this on a tc? Can a flash tune chang the air/fuel?
Has anyone tried this on a tc? Can a flash tune chang the air/fuel?
08-28-2009, 10:44 PM
#57
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has been impossible due to toyotas million dollar encryption on the tc...but dezod N another company have together been able to do it and we will be able to do it before winter hits
09-04-2009, 07:11 PM
#58
I'm probably going to add a FIC mainly because I don't like running stoich during closed loop boost and the ECU is too slow to transition to open loop for my liking. My point was simply that FI without EM is not a guaranteed FAIL. IMO it is possible to run modest FI safely without EM provided that you stay within the limits of the ECU.
BTW, there is EM and then there is EM. The Greddy Blue and other piggybacks that modify the MAF signal don't do much more than Treadstone's velocity stack. The AEM FIC and Greddy Ultimate are much better.
10-17-2009, 10:01 PM
#59
ok i am jummping back in the thread with another question.
the zpi kit. is if ok to run that kit with out tune. i keep seeing vids online of tc's with the zpi kit untuned running at the track.....
next question is will it also be ok on a 07+tc besides the maf adapter.
they said that was the only kit that did ok with out a tune and i have got my hands on one
the zpi kit. is if ok to run that kit with out tune. i keep seeing vids online of tc's with the zpi kit untuned running at the track.....
next question is will it also be ok on a 07+tc besides the maf adapter.
they said that was the only kit that did ok with out a tune and i have got my hands on one
