Bargaining with Dealers MSRP?
05-17-2005, 02:44 AM
#41
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cite and argue
Originally Posted by wholeflaffer
Well, if they're not independent, and they're not owned by Toyota, what are they?
Or, are you trying to tell me that, by signing a contract with Toyota they are no longer independent? What if I told you that the dealers could elect to drop Toyota and try to take on other lines of cars?
Enough of my sarcasm, here's a short lesson you may have slept through in Grad School:
The US government deems that manufacturers who sell through agents (i.e., do not sell direct to the consumer) may not legally dictate a selling price. This is done in order to maintain competition between the dealers, and allow them to properly compete for customers on price (as well as other factors).
Manufacturers MAY establish an MSRP, but keep in mind that MSRP reads: Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price. This is legalese for "This is the price we recommend that our dealers sell it for, but we cannot control the actual price." What Toyota apparently does, via its Scion dealership agreements, is require that the dealer set a selling price and not vary it from one customer to the next. Note that this requirement does not affect the dealer's ability to compete on price against other dealers, and is therefore legal.
Or, are you trying to tell me that, by signing a contract with Toyota they are no longer independent? What if I told you that the dealers could elect to drop Toyota and try to take on other lines of cars?
Enough of my sarcasm, here's a short lesson you may have slept through in Grad School:
The US government deems that manufacturers who sell through agents (i.e., do not sell direct to the consumer) may not legally dictate a selling price. This is done in order to maintain competition between the dealers, and allow them to properly compete for customers on price (as well as other factors).
Manufacturers MAY establish an MSRP, but keep in mind that MSRP reads: Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price. This is legalese for "This is the price we recommend that our dealers sell it for, but we cannot control the actual price." What Toyota apparently does, via its Scion dealership agreements, is require that the dealer set a selling price and not vary it from one customer to the next. Note that this requirement does not affect the dealer's ability to compete on price against other dealers, and is therefore legal.
case law and we'll talk, braggart.
05-17-2005, 03:00 AM
#43
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Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Harrisburg, PA
Posts: 163
Re: cite and argue
Originally Posted by surfcity40
Originally Posted by wholeflaffer
Well, if they're not independent, and they're not owned by Toyota, what are they?
Or, are you trying to tell me that, by signing a contract with Toyota they are no longer independent? What if I told you that the dealers could elect to drop Toyota and try to take on other lines of cars?
Enough of my sarcasm, here's a short lesson you may have slept through in Grad School:
The US government deems that manufacturers who sell through agents (i.e., do not sell direct to the consumer) may not legally dictate a selling price. This is done in order to maintain competition between the dealers, and allow them to properly compete for customers on price (as well as other factors).
Manufacturers MAY establish an MSRP, but keep in mind that MSRP reads: Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price. This is legalese for "This is the price we recommend that our dealers sell it for, but we cannot control the actual price." What Toyota apparently does, via its Scion dealership agreements, is require that the dealer set a selling price and not vary it from one customer to the next. Note that this requirement does not affect the dealer's ability to compete on price against other dealers, and is therefore legal.
Or, are you trying to tell me that, by signing a contract with Toyota they are no longer independent? What if I told you that the dealers could elect to drop Toyota and try to take on other lines of cars?
Enough of my sarcasm, here's a short lesson you may have slept through in Grad School:
The US government deems that manufacturers who sell through agents (i.e., do not sell direct to the consumer) may not legally dictate a selling price. This is done in order to maintain competition between the dealers, and allow them to properly compete for customers on price (as well as other factors).
Manufacturers MAY establish an MSRP, but keep in mind that MSRP reads: Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price. This is legalese for "This is the price we recommend that our dealers sell it for, but we cannot control the actual price." What Toyota apparently does, via its Scion dealership agreements, is require that the dealer set a selling price and not vary it from one customer to the next. Note that this requirement does not affect the dealer's ability to compete on price against other dealers, and is therefore legal.
case law and we'll talk, braggart.
Check out US v. Colgate (1919).
05-17-2005, 09:39 PM
#47
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Join Date: May 2005
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Posts: 2,366
Re: cite and argue
Originally Posted by wholeflaffer
Originally Posted by surfcity40
Originally Posted by wholeflaffer
Well, if they're not independent, and they're not owned by Toyota, what are they?
Or, are you trying to tell me that, by signing a contract with Toyota they are no longer independent? What if I told you that the dealers could elect to drop Toyota and try to take on other lines of cars?
Enough of my sarcasm, here's a short lesson you may have slept through in Grad School:
The US government deems that manufacturers who sell through agents (i.e., do not sell direct to the consumer) may not legally dictate a selling price. This is done in order to maintain competition between the dealers, and allow them to properly compete for customers on price (as well as other factors).
Manufacturers MAY establish an MSRP, but keep in mind that MSRP reads: Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price. This is legalese for "This is the price we recommend that our dealers sell it for, but we cannot control the actual price." What Toyota apparently does, via its Scion dealership agreements, is require that the dealer set a selling price and not vary it from one customer to the next. Note that this requirement does not affect the dealer's ability to compete on price against other dealers, and is therefore legal.
Or, are you trying to tell me that, by signing a contract with Toyota they are no longer independent? What if I told you that the dealers could elect to drop Toyota and try to take on other lines of cars?
Enough of my sarcasm, here's a short lesson you may have slept through in Grad School:
The US government deems that manufacturers who sell through agents (i.e., do not sell direct to the consumer) may not legally dictate a selling price. This is done in order to maintain competition between the dealers, and allow them to properly compete for customers on price (as well as other factors).
Manufacturers MAY establish an MSRP, but keep in mind that MSRP reads: Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price. This is legalese for "This is the price we recommend that our dealers sell it for, but we cannot control the actual price." What Toyota apparently does, via its Scion dealership agreements, is require that the dealer set a selling price and not vary it from one customer to the next. Note that this requirement does not affect the dealer's ability to compete on price against other dealers, and is therefore legal.
case law and we'll talk, braggart.
Check out US v. Colgate (1919).
i wasn't sniping, just interested in the basis for your theory.
05-18-2005, 12:35 AM
#50
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Lake Havasu,AZ
Posts: 41
Originally Posted by OldYeller
You have a chance with Scion to buy a car without feeling you got screwed or had to haggle for hours. Pay your money and be happy.
05-18-2005, 01:54 AM
#51
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Join Date: May 2004
Location: Don Davis Scion (TX)
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Originally Posted by xlr8tC
On the Scions, if the dealer is using Toyota Financial Services (TFS), then we only get a flat $250 out of the financing. We cannot adjust the rates on Scions, so there is not very much profit in the financing either.
also, toyota dealerships don't just use toyota financial services. they have many more 'friends' to help them get a loan for their buyers. you can argue all you would like, but it won't do any good. i've learned all of this by firsthand experience. you won't convince me otherwise.
also, toyota dealerships don't just use toyota financial services. they have many more 'friends' to help them get a loan for their buyers. you can argue all you would like, but it won't do any good. i've learned all of this by firsthand experience. you won't convince me otherwise.
1-TFS denies credit and we must try another lender
2-The customer wants to finance with their own bank/ credit union.
As far as inflating the rate from another bank, remember that we can't negotiate, so we have to be competitive in rate or we will lose a customer.
As far as doc fees, Texas does not let a dealer charge more than $50.00, which is fair. I paid it for my xB.
05-26-2005, 12:35 AM
#52
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OK I know some folks have gotten tired of this thread, but I was on Scions page looking at all the fine print and I noticed this:
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"2005 Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price as of 1/31/2005, including the Delivery, Processing and Handling Fee. (Historically, vehicle manufacturers and distributors have charged a separate fee for processing, handling and delivering vehicles to dealerships. Scion's charge for these services is called the "Delivery, Processing and Handling Fee" and is based on the value of the processing, handling and delivery services Scion provides as well as Scion's overall pricing structure. Scion may make a profit on the Delivery, Processing and Handling Fee.) Excludes taxes, license, title and available or regionally required equipment. Actual dealer price may vary."
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But I am almost sure I have seen dealers selling this car for around 17,000 MSRP (supposedly MSRP). This makes me thingk that dealers are charging seperate destination charges. This is why I was confused when the article about the '06 tC's said there was a price INCRESE and the car was 16,200 bucks. IT IS ALL BECOMING CLEAR TO ME NOW.
------------------------------------------------
"2005 Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price as of 1/31/2005, including the Delivery, Processing and Handling Fee. (Historically, vehicle manufacturers and distributors have charged a separate fee for processing, handling and delivering vehicles to dealerships. Scion's charge for these services is called the "Delivery, Processing and Handling Fee" and is based on the value of the processing, handling and delivery services Scion provides as well as Scion's overall pricing structure. Scion may make a profit on the Delivery, Processing and Handling Fee.) Excludes taxes, license, title and available or regionally required equipment. Actual dealer price may vary."
------------------------------------------------
But I am almost sure I have seen dealers selling this car for around 17,000 MSRP (supposedly MSRP). This makes me thingk that dealers are charging seperate destination charges. This is why I was confused when the article about the '06 tC's said there was a price INCRESE and the car was 16,200 bucks. IT IS ALL BECOMING CLEAR TO ME NOW.
05-26-2005, 03:28 PM
#53
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The $16,200 price is before the destination charge. The do not list that charge on the main website because it varies based on your region. A dealer can sell the car for as much or as little as they want, as long as every customer pays the same price for at least that day. We can change the pricing daily if we want, but not from one customer to the next.
05-26-2005, 09:13 PM
#54
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OK I do not know if this is news worth or not, but I talked to the chat folks on the Scion web site today. There was an artle on this very site saying that the 06' tC's would be shipping next week, but she said it was more like 2nd or 3rd week of June. Since I am getting mine around the end of June at the earliest to the end of July at the latest, I think I am going to try really hard to get the '06. It would just eb silly not to (at least try).
JBHS98: As a dealer I am not sure what you can tell me, but you seem like you have been very open with us and I am thankful. I have a sales guy I feel good about here: http://www.fremontscion.com and while that templates Scion page does not really have a lot of specific information there, I know for a fact these guys are waay over charging for accessories. And if you look at what little inventory they have in the web site (they do not ever update it, it is always the same 2 tC's) they are charging too much. I am taking the king of hagglers with me (my friend who always gets smokin deals on cars). I also pointed this out after my test drive. They said that they would match any price on the Scion web site without batting an eye.
Anyway, I guess my main question to you is: If I the pure pricing does not let me haggle over the price of the car (yes I agree it is already a good deal), how do you think I could do to get them to throw in at least one free dealer installed option, like the Alarm or XM radio or something? Thanks,
JBHS98: As a dealer I am not sure what you can tell me, but you seem like you have been very open with us and I am thankful. I have a sales guy I feel good about here: http://www.fremontscion.com and while that templates Scion page does not really have a lot of specific information there, I know for a fact these guys are waay over charging for accessories. And if you look at what little inventory they have in the web site (they do not ever update it, it is always the same 2 tC's) they are charging too much. I am taking the king of hagglers with me (my friend who always gets smokin deals on cars). I also pointed this out after my test drive. They said that they would match any price on the Scion web site without batting an eye.
Anyway, I guess my main question to you is: If I the pure pricing does not let me haggle over the price of the car (yes I agree it is already a good deal), how do you think I could do to get them to throw in at least one free dealer installed option, like the Alarm or XM radio or something? Thanks,
05-26-2005, 09:26 PM
#55
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I got the tC for a price lower than the msrp
I got my azure pearl in january when the big northeastern hit. I paid 16515 in cash but the dealership wrote me back a check for $250 since the invoice has to be the msrp plus I got a few more free oil changes. And no I am not lying!!! I have no reason to....
05-26-2005, 09:32 PM
#56
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I honestly do not know of any way for you to get anything for free. I have given out free items, but only when posted on my website and open to everyone. Getting them to just throw something in is against the covenant, and is not allowed. I guess it is up to them how important that is. You could shop around and look for a dealer that does not charge as much for accessories, but that is really the best advice I have for you.
05-28-2005, 12:40 AM
#57
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I see.. And can I just guy the base tC and take it back to the dealer later to have the other options installed if I wanted to? If so would it be the same price as the options at purchase time? Thanks,
05-29-2005, 01:00 AM
#58
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You could buy a base tC and add stuff later. The price will be the same unless the dealer changes any of the pricing on the accessories, but that would be shown on the menu. You could also add the accessories at another dealer if the price is lower. Just remember, if you do not add at time of purchase, the taxes could be higher, and you must pay cash as opposed to financing it witht he car.
05-30-2005, 02:01 AM
#59
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Thanks for the advice! I will consider that. For the first time I will be able to afford to add things to this car while I am paying for it.
The dealer that I am going through said that I will pay exactly what the web site says everything costs. I think I feel pretty good about that.
The dealer that I am going through said that I will pay exactly what the web site says everything costs. I think I feel pretty good about that.
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