aiken

If it's anything to think about... my first car I purchased was a 2002 Pontiac Grand Am... brand new. I owned the car for 18 months, and it had 21,000 miles on it when I sold it. In 18 months, I was in the shop 18 times for NON-regular maintenance work. It was a different thing falling apart every month. Just thought I'd give you some information on a personal experience...

woodstock

"Your mom owns a tC!"

xlr8tC

having had a sunfire for 8 years i can attest to the durability of the pontiac brand. i rode that car hard and it just kept going(2.2L). I personally don't like the styling of the G6. looks like a neon from the back. i can recognize a tC from the back at a distance. if you're worried about durability, don't be. either will treat you right. if you're looking for a stick get a stick though. don't get a "new, cooler hybrid" tranny. the more complicated you make an automatic transmission, the quicker it'll tear up usually. more parts, more to go wrong. follow the KISS rule. it almost always is the best advice.

engifineer

The number of them on the road is very relative to location though. I see more G6s than I can stand to see here. Three in my lot alone at work. And god knows how many when I am driving home. I see maybe 1 or 2 tCs a week at MOST here in the twin cities, they are definitely more rare here than a G6, at least that I have seen. G6s have already become just like all the other Grand Ams.. tons of them showing up everywhere.

JD Powers is ok and all, but I am not going to trust their short tests and IQS over what I see and hear from people that spend their days under the hoods of these cars.

Dont get me wrong, I am not bashing any of the cars, just stating what I have seen. If GM comes out with something that doesnt look like the average run of the mill grand am, and I start hearing fewer nightmare stories from their owners, I would be all for them. Like I said, I would love to help promote our economy rather than everyone elses. And if I were buying a truck right now, you can be damn sure it would be a Chevy. I dont like the looks or poor electrical design I have worked with in Ford trucks, and certainly dont feel like buying a new tranny for a dodge.. not to mention that I think Chevy has, does and probably always will make the best looking trucks hands down .... but that is just me.

bBsactoguy

I think the shiftronic is a piece of crap.

If I were to look for something like that would be only in a BMW M3, M5, or M6...

But who has money like that... haha.....

Kurenai

haha, no, my mom drives a BMW

engifineer

That is so great! BOW TO YOUR SENSAY!!!!

Fahrenheit

You can base your quality statements on your experience and on other's experience all you want, but that doesn't give it any sort of validity. JD Power uses statistically valid research techniques to determine their numbers, they're slightly more credible than your simple anecdotal evidence. I can provide anecdotal evidence to prove that Toyota sucks based on my two friends who've had problems with relatively new cars, but that doesn't mean that Toytoa actually sucks. The stats show otherwise, so that's why JD Power is such a good tool. The magazine writers are also in a slightly better place to comment on the quality of a car. They have the training in both writing and automotive technology and business to make educated comments without saying things like "American cars suck."

engifineer

Yeah, an initial quality survey is real valid. That tells if the car sucks the first few months after it is released, NOTHING more. Basically if it has issues straight off the line. And even better, they lump every complaint together. So "the gas mileage sucks" counts agains the H2. I dont exactly call that valid research. And I also dont use comments like "American Cars Suck", so point that at whoever said it. My background in engineering includes training in PROPER scientific testing, statistical sampling and product development and testing.. oh and since you mention it too, technical writing. So please do not even attempt to group me in some idiot category because you are wasting your breath. I dont claim to be the car testing expert, but the data I have seen come from JD is not exactly proper statistical research in the least. If it were it would take more than a few months to determing the "quality" of the new cars out. Their ratings are great for first impressions and relative build quality in comparison to other vehicles.

My anecdotal evidence stretches a bit further than a few cars. I know one shop in particular (one mechanic at that) that has probably replaced 20 - 30 trannies in chryslers under 5 years old in the past couple of years. This is a shop run by one person, so compared to overall throughput that is not very good. And to a go a bit deeper than that, I have personally seen how some of these destroy themselves, and spoken and know some of the tranny rebuilders that fix them, and they can all tell you they are simply not built worth a damn. That is the type of evidence I go by, not so and so had this problem with their car. I have fixed a number of electrical issues in Fords that simply baffle me regarding why any engineer (even a novice one) would have designed it that way... and my engineering degree is in electronics, so again, not anecdotal evidence. I dont base my opinions off of guesses. If I speak one, I most likely have a very good reason for having that opinion based on some valid experience. I dont claim to be an expert or anything close, but I dont just make up reasons to hate things either. And again I say, I have nothing against american cars in general. So attack someone else.

mancide

Just FYI, the new GTO was not designed by GM at all. Holden who builds cars for GM out of Australia, who also built the original GTO, builds the new one. They actually never stopped building the sister car to the GTO. Pontiac just stopped ordering them. The cars that GM seems to get good marks on are typically NOT built in their plants, with the exception of the Corvettes.

I would be less likely to buy a new car from Pontiac than I would buying a new car from Toyota. By "new" I mean a newly designed car (like the tC and G6).

Really, it's whatever you want. Just because I personally wouldn't buy one doesn't mean they are awful. They haven't been out long enough to know how they are going to hold their value, etc. HOWEVER, Forbes just ranked the tC as one of the top 10 cars to retain its value right now, so that's something to think about when FORBES says this car is going to hold it's value.

The JD Power rankings can be skewed. Scion's quality rating with JD Power is not as good as Toyota's, but it's mainly from people complaining about squeaks and gas mileage. I don't see how you can score everything equally and claim your ratings are valid when you score 500 squeaks the same as 500 blown head gaskets. Just doesn't really put the car on equal footing. However, since you want to harp on JD Power, the Scion tC won "Best Sporty Car" for 2005, and I didn't see the G6 on any of the lists. The only GM's that won were Caddy's and Buicks.

engifineer

Oh, and I will say I am liking the GTO more and more... if they could start designing it away from the standard Grand Am looks as well. The powerplant is amazing! For a larger car with a sporty feel it seems to be pretty nice.

BreakTheStatic

I can vouch for that. The A604 41TE transmission that is used in almost all of chrysler's FWD vehicles is extremely weak. There have been over 40 TSBs and recalls on that particular transmission. It's been giving Chrysler problems for many years now.

mancide

From my understanding, the Holden Monero, which was the GTO sister car in the 60s, has been built and designed all these years for sale in Australia. What the GTO looks like now, is what the Monero evolved into. I admit it does look plain, but for what it is, it's an excellent "muscle car" for the money.

ChILLaXTodAMaX

hmm. it seems like depending on if your lucky or not, domestic cars could last you forever or last you a year. The G6 coupe doesnt come with the 4 panel panoramic sunroof, which I was really disappointed about, but I guess it's because theres no room for it up there.

I'm more and more liking a Scion because as long as I get over the Shiftronics thing, which you guys are telling me its no good, then I would want a Scion. The interior of a G6 is stunning and I'd say that other than the radio head unit, it looks better than the tC overall. The exterior, the G6 coupe looks like a twist of the new Eclipse and Camry Solara. It does look a lot longer than the Scion. One thing that bugs me a lil is the length of the Scion. if you look at it at a certain angle, it looks as small as one of those old 92 Civic hatchbacks.

rawr215, I HOPE that you weren't in your car when it got totaled like that.. YIKES

dante

G6!!! (just to be different)

Ok, I'll get hammered for this, but definitely test drive each car, and decide from their. the "resale value" thing doesn't mean squat, as the domestics get a bad rap for that b/c the resale is based off of MSRP, not actual selling cost of the car. so in the past when a domestic was worth 3k (or whatever) less than an import that didn't take into account the 3k incentive that the buyer got at signing. And actually, I think that with the GM version of "pure pricng" I think that the resale value will be pretty good based on other models which did not have to offer any incentives to be sold.

as for the actual differences between the two cars, that should be noticeable when you drive each. yes the G6 has 200hp, but also has 225lb torque, which is nice. it also has quite a bit more room (I think, too lazy to look up the details), but isn't a hatch so you'll lose utility of the hatch.

basically its a different car, and if you like one better than the other, go for it.

engifineer

^^ you wont notice that torque as much as you think with the weight difference, the tC is about .6 sec faster in the 1/4 mile. The G6 runs the 1/4 in 16.2 and 0-60 in 8 sec. The tC also slightly beats in on the skidpad as well.

TrafficinLA

I think the G6 is a fine car. It was not available when I bought my car, but if it was, I'd take a look at it. GM's cars have vastly improved and can be had for a good price.

Oh, about shiftronic. After a few months, you won't touch it often if any at all. Most people just leave it in auto.