sounds like an oxymoron to me. "Launch" denotes chirping tires on takeoff and/or taking off from the line at a high rate of acceleration. This is not possible at 700-800 rpms.

 

How do you drop rpms from IDLE?

to start out normally in first; with clutch pedal down, i start to slowly build rpms, then almost at the same time start to let off the clutch and feel for friction point. I finally feel the friction at around 1200-1500, sometimes i can let off the clutch and engage fine. other times as i start to let off the clutch the rpms start to drop, like the clutch is slowing down the flywheel. i have to either clutch in and start all over, or blip the throttle to get the rpms back up before i continue letting off the clutch.

Dude, is it possibly that your car just does not have the same issues as mine and others?? maybe you're lucky. but i've been driving stick long enough to know when a system sucks. as i've said its a combination of many things, including horrible pedal feel/no feeback, the DBW throttle delay, dead spots in both clutch and gas pedal, low/weak idle, high clutch engage/friction point, heavy flywheel, crap stock clutch.

Let me ask this: if you're sitting on flat surface in neutral without any brakes, without using clutch move shifter over as if you're shifting into 1st, but it [obviously] doesn't go into 1st because you didnt use the clutch.... my car begins to creep forward as i push the shifter up against 1st gear (in neutral). Anyone else?? to me, this means the clutch is not fully engaging/disengaging.

 

RPM will drop lower than idle (until it stalls) as you let off the clutch if you dont give it enough throttle. So some people new to a stick will not time it right and stall it or bog it down as they let off.

As you push the shifter towards first in neutral, with the clutch out, the clutch is fully engaged. The synchros contact first, trying to spin everything up to matching speed as the gear begins to engage, moving the car forward. That means the clutch is engaged as it should be and is working fine. Now, if you had the clutch depressed and it pulled, then it would mean the clutch is NOT disengaging fully. So the scenario you mentioned is normal. If it were not fully engaging/disengaging, you would smell it fairly quickly and ulitmately burn it up.

 

oh yea man it's the only way

my problem, that I still struggle with, is that I press the throttle, but it doesn't respond "in time" by the time the clutch is already being brought to friction point. Basically, I have two options... I can hold the throttle in the current position, the engine will then suddenly rev THROUGH the clutch (terrible feeling in your left foot and in your mind! ugh ) and woohoo jerky takeoff that makes you feel like . Or, I can clutch back in and try again.

I feel like a loser a lot of times when just driving around

naa, but its cool. I have weird up and down weeks, currently I think I'm in a down week. I had it going fine for a while, now I kind of need to concentrate to make sure I'm applying throttle before bringing the clutch up any... oh well...

I use too many emoticons

 

sometimes you make me wonder engifineer....

by definition, rpms CANNOT drop below Idle/baseline! am i missing something here? I know you may think you know what you are talking about, but the way you are desribing things, it makes it sound like you have no clue.

seriously...how TF would rpms drop below 700??? i've NEVER seen it happen, and can't imagine a scenario that would make that happen.

 

EXACTLY!!!!! its just a feeling of inconsistency. you get no feedback from the "floating pedals".

i think enginfineer thinks i'm driving around town bucking like a bronco....incorrectamundo. i can drive the car (pretty well) without any major problems.

this issue is just about, i've been driving the car for 2+ years, and its one of those things i thought i'd get "used to". not so.

contrary to what engifineer probably assumes, i am not a 'noob' nor do i have downs syndrome. in fact, my buddy who owns a speed/performance shop and has piloted a supra to a best ET of 9.7... after his first time driving it, he basically said exactly what i've been saying (wow, i forgot about that).

Engifineer, you seem to be the only one who doesn't get it....

 

If there is a load on the engine it can drop all the way until the engine dies... how hard is that to get? Go out, start your car, put it in gear and begin releasing the clutch without touching the gas... tell me what happens. Pretty simple really, that is why a car stalls if you dont give it gas as you let out the clutch.

And I explained your other "issue" above as well.. exactly as it happens, which you would know if you knew how a transmission is built. Obviously by thinking the clutch was partially engaged YOU dont understand how one works, or you wouldnt have even thought that.

I am just trying to offer helpful info, and correct info to correct what you THOUGHT was happening above. But hey.. you know it all and will only listen to people who seem to agree with you, so why did you even post? You arent going to listen to anything but what you want to hear: If you are having issues shifting, it is poor design, related to idle, which shoud NEVER have anything to do with shifting or taking off. So go ahead, I wont post any more of my "incorrect info". But at least go out and read up on how a constant mesh, synchronized tranny works before posting such garbage. While "your buddy" this and that and you "have driven many manuals", I spent a good part of my life in and around a shop actually working on cars, not just driving them. And like I said, I never was trying to flame, only to post correct info about how a tranny is built and operates. But you apparently cant see this, or wont accept it.

Again, I was posting correct info about a tranny to help you understand why certain things were happening. But obviously you just want to argue. Waste of time really. That is why people laugh at this site, and why I continually get irritated with it. If someone posts correct, factual info that doesnt agree with what people want to hear.. the argument ensues and the flames begin. You seem to think you already know the answers, so enjoy your thread and youf "faulty car". I am sure with all of your experience you will "fix" it. I, for one, will leave this thread alone.

 

^^^ he's right. the car can drop below the idle line. The idle is a comfortable place for the rpms to sit basically. The car begins to shake and eventually stalls as it gets lower and lower below the idle line.

 

This thread is just a waste of bandwidth. I wouldn't argue with engifineer when it comes to car talk... He speaks the truth!

 

sorry dude, but you are really being a big jerk. you're not helpful at all. so y don't you just go away??

the engine dies out as soon as the rpms drop below idle. the engine will not run at 200rpms. or 300rpms. or 400 rpms.

i know how a tranny works. stop being a D!ck and implying that i don't know what i'm talking about. You don't know me or my experience level at all.

YOU are the only one who seems to think the tc's clutch and dbw systems are flawless. Search around pal, theres plenty of people with the same or similar issues to what i'm describing.

its very simple. get down on your hands and knees a get right up next to the pedal assembly. WITH YOUR HAND, push down on the clutch, you can feel the inch or two of free play before the clutch assembly even begins to activate. Its like a 2-step hitch.

Now press on the gas pedal with your hand. Not only is there a .5 inch of dead pedal, but CLEARLY, the rpms jump almost a FULL SECOND (at least a half) AFTER you press down on the pedal.

This is not acceptable and not how a properly designed pedal assembly should be.

obviously, since i dont' feel like revamping the whole pedal assembly, i'd like to bump up the idle a bit so you have less wiggle room between idle and Friction point. therefore less pedal play to fuss with. WHAT IS SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND ABOUT THAT??

I really think you just like to hear yourself talk, and see what you type on screen. it makes you feel like some kind of expert maybe??? idk. but whatever, if you don't know what i'm talking about, (which you obviously don't) then don't waste your (and mine, and everyone elses) time posting in this thread.

thanks.

 

There is definitely play in the clutch. Every car that i've personally ever driven has had that play. i'm no expert by any means, but I thought that all clutches had that play. maybe i'm wrong, but its normal on the tC.

a FULL SECOND delay on your gas pedal is not normal. if it really takes that long, go have it checked out. if thats really the case, I completely understand your complaint here. thats ridiculous. I don't think the DBW system is perfect and I dont think engifneer is saying that (although I dont want to speak for him), but i don't think its NEARLY as bad as you're saying. I believe though that you are saying its THAT bad because you may have a problem with your car. I'd agree with you if I had that problem. (my stepdad had the same sort of issue that you're talking about with his v6 camry and had it worked it, although not much got resolved).

The one thing that I have to disagree with you on, is that the car stalls immediately after dropping below idle. Go outside and get the car rolling in first in a parking lot. Once the car is in first gear, take your feet off of the pedals and SLOWLY let the car's friction bring it to a stop. It will drop well below 750-800rpm idle before it stalls. (i've done it, I know. I am actually impressed with how hard it is to stall the tC - even my girl who's a beginner couldn't stall it down at like 250rpms lol I shouldn't be letting her drive it though).

My only other thought is that your car has some modifications that are tampering with things? Nothing in your profile, are you stock?

In any case, go ahead and adjust the idle. The idle screw is there. You don't need us to convince you one way or another. Its YOUR car, if you want to do that, go right ahead. But again, IMO, if there is such a delay, there is a problem with the car

 

thats becaue the car is moving/rolling ie. there is wheelspeed. you are describing engine braking.

Engifineer was talking about getting the car started in 1st gear (not moving).

yes, if the car is moving, with the clutch engaged it will keep the engine running until the wheels stop and therefore the clutch stops and stalls out the engine.

From a standstill, if you are in 1st and gradually let out the clutch, it will start to creep forward as the clutch begins to engage at idle, then as soon as its not getting enough throttle it will die out (right below idle). You cannot just take your foot off the clutch pedal if the car is stopped and the rpms will slowly drop below idle. that is ridiculous.

 

No problem if you speak for me a bit spekt Like I said, I am done talking to him. The info I posted is correct (and can be looked up if needed I am sure.. there are plenty of sources for info out there) and was never meant to flame. But as I mentioned, this site tends to have more people with less technical knowledge (nothing wrong with that, other than the attitude from some) that are willing to argue and flame if someone doesnt agree with what they want to hear. I post on other forums that have a lot of people with tons of real world experience building/repairing cars, and they despise this site due to this type of thing. I do defend this site to a point because I know some really cool people here that either know thier stuff or arent afraid to actually learn something. I am by far a know it all, but only post info if I have experience and research to back it up. But again, if some people dont like what they hear, they will jump to mouthing off. This is why you probably have seen less and less of me here lately.

And you are correct spekt, I never said I was in love with the DBW or even that the car is flawless, but I am also practical enough to not blame the car design for every little thing. I would prefer a cable throttle system. But I found no problem adapting to the DBW. And some people may have issues with thier tC that they need to address. If my posts are read, I never said anything to the opposite.

But I will say, my description of pushing it into a gear with the clutch out is correct. And it does nothing but damage your synchros, so hopefully people dont sit around doing this a lot to see it happen.

And you are right about the idles as well. I can release it (sitting still) and drop rpm to approx 500 rpm without stalling (on both of my 5 spd's any motorcycle I have ever owned/ridden or any other standard tranny vehicle) . Of course, you shouldnt be doing this much since you are slipping the clutch. And my orginal post about this was regarding trying to start off from idle, then hitting the gas. The rpm will dip below normal idle, the car will shudder and near stall, then when throttle is applied you end up with a jerky take off. This is 100% possible and happens a lot with new drivers of 5spd cars.


Anyway, its good to hear someone on this thread actually read my posts rather than scanning them quickly so they could bash what I had to say. But I am more than done with the arguing. When the childish namecalling starts, no listening is gong to occur, so it is pointless.

Take care.

 

Yup, our ECU (or whatever controls fuel delivery, sorry I don't know the technical names for such things... apologies) seems to "save" our engine from stalling a lot. I can't tell you how many times I have, embarrasingly, had the RPMs dip to ZERO (I'm talking a totally dead engine) and have it come back by itself during a poorly executed launch. I came up with a term for it, I call it a "dry stall."

Hum, but I think I might have misunderstood your point about just rolling in first/second. Really, you should never stall like that, unless you hit something that causes the tires to stop. If you're just rolling on a flat surface you should be able to continue to do that until your gas runs out. The vehicle should continue at that constant speed, since idle is applying "throttle" for you, which is why you can roll in first and second without ever stalling.

 

you can't adjust any "Idle Control Screw" anymore. there is what's called an "Idle Air Control" on fuel injected cars, it is a port that bypasses the butterfly on the throttle body with a screw-type shutter inside it to regulate airflow, only letting in enough to maintain 700-800 RPM. If you go messing with the "Idle Control Screw" you think you're going to raise your idle with, as you're opening the butterfly to let more air in, the Idle Air Control is going to close to compensate for that, until it goes all the way shut, then you'll go from correct idle to way over 1K. Just some food for thought, hope this helps.

 

where ever did i call you a name?? rofl...some people (ie. you) just can't stand anyone not agreeing with them. Its like you take it so personally, like i'm insulting your intelligence or something.

actually, i'm the one who really doesn't appreciate your obvious implications that i have no technical knowledge or car experiece. You are very wrong. I'm no mechanic, but as i said, i've been around/working on cars for the last 8 years or so, just as long as i've been driving stick.

If you don't have these issues with the car, then DON'T POST IN THIS THREAD. But don't sit here and insult my intelligence or question my experience driving stick. Who do you think you are? Carol Shelby? You are an avatar in cyberspace. not some automotive guru. You seem to think you are helping, but you aren't. The dbw delay, low/weak idle and sloppy pedal play is there; if you want to minimalize the problem thats fine. Do it somewhere else. I've been driving the tc for 2+ years (long enough to "get used to" or "figure out" the car if it weren't so poorly designed.

You don't want to help. You just want to think that you can solve the problem by telling me/us to get used to it and stop complaining. Frankly, you sound a lot like the Scion service manager when i complain about the squeaky clutch play.

i have no problem accepting "thats just the way the car is, live with it, or sell it"....but i hate when people like you say "you just have to get used to it, or you're not doing something right." You don't even know. And dozens if not hundreds of people have some kind of complaint about either the tc's clutch or dbw throttle system. Why are you (engifineer) the only one who needs to contradict that?

 

This is why I stopped discussing it with you. You apparently have missed the point on everything I posted and just like to insult me. I have no idea why you cant get it through your head that I was not trying to insult you (other than you just wanting to argue with me). I simply questioned how you were doing some things since in normal driving idle has no effect at all on taking off. And you still insist that I am blindly defending the tC.. which if you read you will see that is not what I am doing at all.

Intelligent conversation was lost a long time ago in this thread and you insist on still running your mouth at me when I stopped discussing with you long ago. I addressed what someone else said and that was it. I guess you just have to have the last word and try to discredit me, which is fine. You are only open to "help" that is in the form of saying exactly what you say. So I could care less. So simply stop dragging it up and mouthing me and that will be that.

Again, to everyone else, I was simply trying to post some correct info to explain a couple of things, which I did. Its there to read if you like. Not have some sort of a p!$$ing contest with someone with overly thin skin.

Now stealth, go ahead and get in your "last word". I know that will make you feel better for some dumb reason. I wont disturb your precious thread any longer.

 

I don't care if you don't want input from the peanut gallery, you're getting it. ScionStealth, you've proved to me that you're on shakey ground with your knowledge from the first time you said that a car cannot go below the programmed idle. Engifineer has proved hundreds of times on this board over and over that he knows what he's talking about. Sit down and take a note.

 

stealthscion <---noob engifineer<----not noob pretty simple.

The first post on this thread is completely bogus.
only a few (dezod, zpi, rhythmnsmoke, engifineer, sciondad, 318tc,....etc) have any idea what they are talking about on this site. When one of these people answer your post agree, say thank you and move on, do not question these people.

do not question, its just disrespectful.

 

Eight whole years! zomg. I got my license when you were 6.

'Tis a poor musician indeed who blames his own instrument. The is no DBW delay. It's a myth. Put a multimeter on it. The TB reacts virtually instantaneously from less than .005" input at the pedal. The idle is not low. It is optimal. Idle is chosen based on fuel consumption and emissions. Not poor drivers. There is no noticeable "pedal play". If you think there is, it's fairly clear your left foot and right foot cannot be trained to work in unison. The flywheel is heavy, and it takes the motor a bit of oomph to get it moving. Choosing to believe that an electric impulse is somehow "slowed" between your foot, the ECU, and the TB is silly. It's not easier to believe that the flywheel is just heavy?

Dozens!! Woo. Hell, go ahead and make it hundreds. Better still, make it thousands. Scion is closing in on 200,000 tCs sold. If even 1/2 of those are standards, that's 100,000 cars. If 2,000 people ____ and moan about non-existent problems, it's 2%. Now let's play devil's advocate and say that everything you contend is 100% true. If you're the car company, do you invest time and money to address 2% of vehicles sold in a model line, when none of the "problems" compromise the safety or normal operation of the vehicle(s)?

Bottom line? You want to have the RPMs higher when you take off? It's the pedal on the right.