What about the Enkei PF01? 18x7.5, +38, 17.2 lbs for $286 from tirerack.com They're in silver, but I could get them painted...

 

The real question here is, what was your base PSI?

Personally, everyone here is going to have a different setup. What works for some, might not work for others. But for the sake of keeping this going, here's mine:

- Base Tire Pressure: +10psi front and rear from factory recommended (43 front and 40-41 rear).
- Traction Control/VSC OFF
- Drive fast, turn smooth

Rule of thumb for any motorsports event on street tires is run 10psi over stock, front and rear as a base pressure. You can tweak from there. You need the tires hard so the tread blocks don't move. The problem with most street tires is that the tread blocks are designed for evacuating water, not for being torn to shreds in a parking lot. For this reason, the blocks are smaller and have cuts (sipes) in them. These force the tires to "shuffle" when pushed to the limits and this causes them to break loose faster than you'd like. The result is understeer.

So, crank the pressures and try to take the smoothest path. The goal in autox is to get around the course in the shortest amount of time. To do this, you must carry speed. Sometimes, the shortest path is not always the fastest path, so draw your lines so you can keep your speed. The only time you should be braking is when you need to load up the front of the car.

OH, and one last thing (although obvious), any energy used for braking cannot be used for steering. So, if your on the brakes, you better not be turning the wheel!

MightyP, how'd you do at your event!?

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by MightyP

Sounds like a great idea. Since I was really just learning the car, I didn't make any changes during the race. Here's what I know and what the car felt like:

You’ve already increased the rear pressure and still getting understeer really screams out rear sway bar…work on getting a rear sway bar first.

Better traction is gotten with a limited slip differential…I like the geared kind and not the clutch type…

Although the lighter wheels will get you overall better handling, it won’t do anything for your underseer or traction (per se)…

I’d also look at getting front camber plates to set the front camber…if you get both sides exact, that will not only help with your underseering but also your traction.

My recommendation is to first get a rear sway bar and front camber plates…then work on increasing the overall handling like lighter wheels, chassis bracing and sway bars.

 

Well, now I have at least one change to make for the next race. Up the tire pressure.

At 2tCornot2tC: Are there any upgraded swaybars or camber plates available yet? TRD Sparks has sway bars listed, but not available. And I'm not even sure I'd know how to adjust camber if I had the plates. Also, I was thinking lightweight wheels would help because I could reduce unsprung weight nearly 10 lbs per wheel and make my suspension more responsive.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by MightyP

Well, now I have at least one change to make for the next race. Up the tire pressure.

I’m looking for camber plats too…

Unsprung weight is probably the biggest single handling change you can do to your car…BUT that will not change the balance…you need to increase the traction up front and decrease it in the back to get you underseet under control. And there are lots of ways of skinning a cat…wider tires up front only; increasing the tire pressure in the rear only (Caution: do not exceed the maximum tire pressure written on the sidewall of your tires!); sway bar in the rear…if you put two sway bars on to control chassis roll…heftier in the back. This will transfer more weight to the tire.

Eiback lists a sway bar set for the Gen 2 tC on their website…but also not out yet…

I’ve just finished designing and getting caliper brackets machined for my tC…I’ll be installing a BBK this next weekend…if I didn’t screw up on my measurements and design work…next up will be camber plates for the front and adjustable upper rear control arm for the rear…

 

Don't do bars until you do tires. The stock tires are breaking loose with factory suspension, the rear sway bar will only make this worse. Remember, you want traction, not less of it.

Play with your pressures first and learn how it reacts. Once you've mastered tire pressures, get new tires. When you see what real grip is like, then figure out bars.

For example, I don't need bars for autox...so everyone complaining about understeer this and that needs more grip, not stiffer suspension.

Also, camber plates should do more than correct camber, they should set castor. Castor is the hardest and most sought after thing in racing. Why? Because castor gives you free camber! If you can give the car more positive castor, you'll get more responsive steering and more turn in camber. Its win-win. If the plates just adjust camber, they are no different than alignment bolts. And while we're on the topic of alignments, no one here has pyrometered their tires yet, so no one here can comment on how much camber is needed, if it is needed at all....

 

...and the sidewalls are made for ride comfort at the OEM psi settings, gotta keep everyone happy when they buy their new tC. As soon as you are on with AX you will want stiffer sidewalls, thus higher psi.

(I've got a notebook of all the things to do to my tC before I go to my first AX, like having a bin for the spare/jack/etc, extra oil, tire pressure gauge and a pump, and the gallons of sunblock for the day full of working the course)

AND like folks have said, How did you do Ammo!??!

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1stOne

Remember, you want traction, not less of it.

You get overall traction by getting the correct balance…by allowing the rear end to loose traction earlier gains you overall grip…agreed, you will gain more if you can increase the front end grip, but it is much cheaper and easier to get the balance by loosening up the rear.



Absolutely not! More castor gets you more high speed stability and a very heavy steering wheel…lots of caster is used for dragsters and Bonneville salt flat racers…this thread is for auto crossing! 1stOne, have you ever driven a chopper? How easy is it to turn in the canyons? But it sure does cruise nice. The less the caster, the more responsive (twitchier) the car is. If you have too little carter, you will get a high speed wobble (a vibration called a tank slapper). Don’t screw with the caster and lets let 1stOne crank in a bunch of caster and report to us his results. You want the least amount of caster and yet not get the high speed wobble…factory setting will work just fine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1stOne

And while we're on the topic of alignments, no one here has pyrometered their tires yet, so no one here can comment on how much camber is needed, if it is needed at all....

You have a pyrometer? Share the wealth! I’ll come to the track you’re at just use you pyrometer… where did you get it? How much was it? Do you know how to use it?

 

My results:

Raw Time: 18 of 22
PAX Time: 17 of 22
Open Tire: 9 of 10 (PAX adjusted)
Class (ST): 4 of 4

 

If you lose traction (not loose), you lose grip, no matter where it comes from. Lifting the rear is not balancing the car. The car is very neutral. If your having understeer issues, perhaps you should play around with tire pressure more before suggesting things that cost money. Its not sway bars because as I said, I don't have this issue (and I'm leading my class...).

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2tCornot2tC

Absolutely not! More castor gets you more high speed stability and a very heavy steering wheel…lots of caster is used for dragsters and Bonneville salt flat racers…this thread is for auto crossing! 1stOne, have you ever driven a chopper? How easy is it to turn in the canyons? But it sure does cruise nice. The less the caster, the more responsive (twitchier) the car is. If you have too little carter, you will get a high speed wobble (a vibration called a tank slapper). Don’t screw with the caster and lets let 1stOne crank in a bunch of caster and report to us his results. You want the least amount of caster and yet not get the high speed wobble…factory setting will work just fine.

Why do you like to argue with me on these things? Castor gives you camber. "Ask any real racer, any REAL racer, castor is king".

Look at some of the best handling cars out there and the castor specs are unreal. Honda Civic runs +7 degrees...we have like 3. For reference, Ferrari Enzo has around +7 degrees.

And for your reference, I've had a lot of castor in my last lapping car and it was pretty f'n awesome. Lighter steering inputs provided faster turn in and the turn in camber kept tire temps where they should be!

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2tCornot2tC

You have a pyrometer? Share the wealth! I’ll come to the track you’re at just use you pyrometer… where did you get it? How much was it? Do you know how to use it?

...they are like $30. A full blown pro one is more and can be purchased from Longacre, but something from your local hardware store will do the same job.

And if I was referencing using one, you don't think I'd know how to use it? Come now...

So far I'm the only one in this thread saying not to modify your car, I'm suggesting modifying yourself. If you feel that throwing money at your car will make you faster, go for it. Or, if you want to actually get faster, listen to me. In the end, I'm the only one in this forum who is competing and leading his class, so I think I know what I'm talking about...

 

1st in your class? So??? I'm 4th!

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1stOne

Why do you like to argue with me on these things? Castor gives you camber. "Ask any real racer, any REAL racer, castor is king".

Because a “real racer” only knows how to drive, an engineer designed and built it and therefore knows how it works. A suspension is a dynamic system and you are only describing statics. You are attempting to describe a 3D system in 2D...you've failed.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1stOne

And for your reference, I've had a lot of castor in my last lapping car and it was pretty f'n awesome. Lighter steering inputs provided faster turn in and the turn in camber kept tire temps where they should be!

Now how did you change the castor angle on your car by only “modifying yourself”?

 

Ya man! I'm pumped. Been 2 years since I lead a class. That's awesome your 4th! Congrats on your first time out!

Statements like this remind me of why I started ignoring your posts in the first place.

Real "racers" are the reason race teams win. If it was the result of the engineers, don't you think you'd see them standing on the podium at the end? Racing is 90% driver...you figure out the rest.

Because if you read my post you'd realize I mentioned my LAST lapping car and that I did not suggest that anyone purchase camber/castor plates, I suggested learning to drive.

 

I was actually just thinking of something funny...bet you guys will get a laugh out of this...

A woman in a hot air balloon realized she was lost. She reduced altitude and spotted a man below.
She descended a bit more and shouted:
"Excuse me, can you help me? I promised a friend I would meet him an hour ago but I don't know where I am".
The man below replied "You're in a hot air balloon hovering approximately 30 feet above the ground. You're between 40 and 41 degrees north latitude and between 59 and 60 degrees west longitude".
"You must be an engineer" said the balloonist.
"I am" replied the man "how did you know?"
"Well," answered the balloonist, "everything you have told me is probably technically correct, but I've no idea what to make of your information and the fact is, I'm still lost. Frankly, you've not been much help at all. If anything, you've delayed my trip with your talk."
The man below responded "You must be in management".
"I am" replied the balloonist, "but how did you know?"
"Well," said the man "you don't know where you are or where you're going. You have risen to where you are, due to a large quantity of hot air. You made a promise, which you've no idea how to keep, and you expect people beneath you to solve your problems.
The fact is you are in exactly the same position you were in before we met, but now, somehow, it's my f*cking fault."

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1stOne

Statements like this remind me of why I started ignoring your posts in the first place.

I’m getting an awful lot of press real estate for being ignored…

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1stOne

Racing is 90% driver...you figure out the rest.

Where do you get your statistics from? At the pinnacle of racing, Formula 1, people in the business (including the divers) will tell you that it is probably 75% to 85% car…the Formula 1 engineers will say 95% car…my number were obtained from the same place you got your number from…by the way.

Now let’s think about your contention…if it really was 90% driver, the winningest driver in Formula 1 (7-Time World Champion Michael Schumacher) would not be running in 10th place like he is now! In fact, he could win the F-1 world championship on a bicycle.

 

Here is clip of the very first engineer...I come from a great heritage...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I24AwQCzj_U" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I24AwQCzj_U

 

You know, you'd be respected more if you supported the comments of others rather than come off as the god of everything designed and engineered.

How's this, if you have actual track experience, post some photos and results. What class are you in? Where do you race?

Oh, and on your castor thing, I'd suggest reading this:
http://www.mx6.com/forums/1g-mx6-oth...oss-build.html

One quote:
And one more, from Grassroots Motorsports (just so you know, they do A LOT of racing...mostly autocross).

http://www.ozebiz.com.au/racetech/theory/align.html

Learn to have some respect. We are all putting in our time here to help others, it would do you some good to contribute to the conversation rather than attempt to call people out.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1stOne

You know, you'd be respected more if you supported the comments of others...

I do support, or do not comment on, correct information…if it’s wrong, I don’t let it slide.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1stOne

…as the god of everything designed and engineered.

Thank you for the complement…

At my job, I get paid for what I know, not for what I think…force of habit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1stOne

Oh, and on your castor thing, I'd suggest reading this:

Why do you keep referring to and quoting amateur information? This is all kid stuff…that must be your caliber.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1stOne

Learn to have some respect.

Practice what you preach…

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1stOne

We are all putting in our time here to help others, it would do you some good to contribute to the conversation rather than attempt to call people out.

Ah…a common cause…and see above comment again.

 

At the risk of throwing myself headlong into the age-old sport of Urinary Olympics between an operator (1stOne) and an Engineer (2tCornot2tC), I feel I must, for both of you have made egregious miscalculations.

Whether it's racing cars, flying airplanes or building bombs, there are 3 main groups (4 if you include the guys paying for it). Let's put it in racing terms:

The Engineer: Earned his advanced degree years early, but as socially challenged as a pet rock. Gets the car to the track and qualified to competitively race. This is critical and without the engineer, no one else would get past square one. However, the engineering is finished long before the race begins and even the best engineered vehicle is nothing if someone can't use it. Important to the first 10% of the race.

The Operator: Graduated college with a solid 2.7 GPA, mainly because homework was just too intrusive to his frat parties, he wears cool sunglasses and epitomizes narcissism. Drives the car (usually breaking things along the way) and is the difference between a middle of the pack finish and winning. Important to the last 10% of the race.

The Maintainer: Barely graduated high school, but could grow a beard in 6th grade. His hands are greasy, his mouth is dirty and he could probably stand to lose a few pounds. He'll have your back in a bar fight and get's the impossible done (though don't ask how). He installs and assembles what the engineer designed before the race, keeps the car running during the race and fixes what the driver broke after the race. The maintainer makes up 80% of the race.

What this really comes down to is we all have different ways of getting from point A to point B. The same way won't work for everyone and that's cool. This is supposed to be an Auto X thread, not a flame war.

I'd really like to keep the expert inputs to something us lowly noobs can understand.
- Running XXXX car in YY Class on ZZZZ type of track
- I used this configuration...
-- These things worked well
-- Those things didn't
- I plan to change this next time.

Thanks and...
IYAAYAS!