:D Hello All.

Not to start off knocking Toyota's marketing folks but it is an acknowledged fact among Scion dealers across the country and the auto reviewers that they missed their target sales-audience by at least 15-25 years with the xB.

I am 45 myself and just saw an elegant woman in her late-50's driving hers into a multi-million dollar gated-community as well as a white-haired couple who were easily in their 70's just the other day. My salesman is among scores of national automotive magazine's car reviewers who supports this profile.

My brand-new '05 (less than 300 miles) will be used for business to service high-income residential customers, so I completely rebadged it as a Toyota and made a few modifications to give it an overall more "mature" look. No insult intended but I bought the xB for its roominess, reasonable sticker-price, and fuel economy. In no way am I trying to identify with the Fast & Furious set that are my son's age.

With the current sales-trend showing that the xB is attracting "older" buyers, I am hoping that Toyota will rethink their marketing and actually sell a "Toyota" version of the xB. As the Scion, the xB could continue to offer things like the LED mods and such but as a Toyota might offer a similar a'la carte of options like power or leather upholstery, sunroof, cruise-control or other luxury upgrades.

Don't get me wrong; I love my toaster. It's just that my son would also like to buy one of these. He thinks the xB is pretty kewl. Yet my son doesn't particularly want to drive a "Dad's" car nor do I want to give the impression that I am going through some kind of midlife crisis. I think Toyota could have saved itself the trouble of creating the whole Scion nameplate for the US export market if the bulk of the sales are with buyers aged 35 and older. I can't help but think that the xB would have still attracted its share of younger buyers who wanted to JDM or customize this very personalizable product even if they had just offered it as part of the regular Toyota line-up.

Now that they already have marketed this car through the Scion marque, I don't want to slight the more youthful buyers/owners; there are alot of younger folks that also like this car. What I would like to know is whether any of you feel like I do and would like to see Toyota offer a "grown-up" model for 2006?

Please take the poll and let me know what you think.

You can see pictures of my "Toyota-ized" xB here:

https://www.scionlife.com/?TorneoDude

or (for more pictures):

http://groups.msn.com/2005ToyotaTorn...orneovvti.msnw

 

Too much badging going on in the back IMO. I'd lose the Toyota emblem on the bottom right, since you already have the Toyota logo emblem on, and everyone knows what compay that is.

And why is it that practically every state (other than cali) puts on dealer decals on the car? I'd surely ask for them to take it off/order one w/o it.

But as for the topic itself, I voted No. There is no need. The xB is fine exactly as it is.

 

I'm not sure why they created a new division exactly,... perhaps something to do with sales and a "new" company offering unique vehicles. As far as missing their target age-group, that kind of happens with pretty much any company. The Element has the same deal - aimed at young buyers but I see mostly older people driving them (I'm 19, btw). In Scion's case, I think that the company came out with vehicles styled to intrigue the younger generations, while being affordable and practical. The older gen peeps see a car that's distintive and appeals to them, but also offers great value - more interior space than many more expensive competitors, much better mpg, and easy on the wallet in overall MSRP and insurance. So they ****** it up. I got mine because it's a uniquely (sp?) styled vehicle, tons of room inside (haul my friends around a lot), gets good mpg (20k miles in a mere 4 months, yes I drive a LOT), and it stands out from the rest of the cars without any mods. Which hasn't stopped me from modding it, I love modding my ride and standing out even more. In the end, I think Scion just designed a vehicle that clicks with all generations instead of just one... why change it? More sales for them :D

 

Hey, as a almost forty year old man, I bought the car because it was unique, and had great mileage and had a wonderful ability to be modded, if that is a word. I have the lights, the sub, well, almost all the bells and whistles. Plan on getting more.

I think the SCION name is a great idea, since to a lot of folks, TOYOTA is just, well, square. Not too hip. A name associated with Corollas and the like. TOYOTA is smart, and just like they market their upscale marquee with the name LEXUS, SCION works for the youth market.

Heck, I would think that if I ran a business, and wanted to appeal to a mass market, I would not change the name of the car at all. It's a good name. It's a name on the move.
Now, if in a few years, if they drop the xB from the line up at SCION, I would move the xB to TOYOTA, just because it's a great model, that does not deserve a premature elimination.

 

Thanks for your suggestion. Actually I spent quite a bit of time viewing and reviewing the badging on other Toyota's before doing my xB. You will find that most of the Toyota's have both that Toyota oval and the lettered badge. There are no more badges on the hatch than a RAV4, 4Runner, or Highlander to mention just a few.



This might give everyone an idea of where I drew my template from.

 

Don't mean to sound harsh.........but your xB doesn't look so much as a fraction more "mature".............it simply has Toyota badges on it. If anything you have now associated yourself MORE with the "F&F" set by debading and rebadging your car. Old, "mature" folk who just want a car to drive around in buy a car and leave it the way it came.

KiL

 

I thought an expensive sports car was the official vehicle of the mid-life crisis, not a cheap microvan.

But even though I'm 52, I fail to see how a plain white xB with plastic hubcaps and a dealer decal can be mistaken for a "Fast & Furious" type car. You don't have flashy wheels, body graphics, sponsor decals, or a big-___ fart pipe sticking out the back. Your audio system probably doesn't shake the ground and you probably don't cruise with your peeps. It's just a practical little car -- no matter whose name is on it.

So relax, don't take yourself so seriously. Besides, one of the signs of being a real grownup is that you don't care what people think about what you drive. That's for kids.

But to play along with your idea, I propose renaming the current Scion colors:

Blue Blood
Pinot Noir
Ivy League Green
Brooks Brothers Black
Gray Flannel
Uptight White

 

You could have saved a lot of money by getting a customized license plate holder:

PLEASE DON'T RACE ME
I'M OLD



This thread is more evidence on how "old" the Toyota brand is perceived to be - pretty soon the 40-year-olds will need a "younger" brand of their own.

 

Thanks for your input. I agree that the car is unique and a great value; which is why I bought one at 45.

Your comments make my point exactly though.

I am not mass marketing and the youth market is not my customer base. My customers are 90%+ 60 year olds with an annual income of 100K or more with houses of an average of 8-10,000 sq. ft. and 3-5 car garages filled with Mercedes, Rolls, Jags, Lexus', BMW's, and the like. In otherwords... the very same "squares" who might consider using a "youth market" vehicle for business less "professional".

Given those parameters, why didn't I buy a Lexus SUV or some other luxury marque?
Because the xB is just the right size, proportions, fuel economy, drivetrain, and other features for what I use it for. No other vehicle at any price embodies all the qualities found in the xB. Keep in mind that the original JDM version was intended as a space-efficient urban-use design that markets to the general population. Toyota simply did not think that American buyers would respond to the bB in that context, so they marketed it to the youth market instead.

However, it appeals even more in the US to the older crowd than in Japan where the bB has to compete against other similar cars not offered here. It is viewed by mature adults as an economical and ergonomical form of transport. It is low to the ground, which makes getting in and out much easier for aging folks, and the seats are more like chairs which you sit in without having your knees bent back up like in other cars. It easy to drive, with higher than normal all-around visibility, and the VSC and traction-control make it even easier for road-conscious seniors.


Obviously most 35+ year old buyers do not have the same concerns about using their Scion the way I do mine, so my (poll) question is not of life-altering importance. But if you agree that being a "Scion" makes the xB less "square", wouldn't simultaneously marketing an upscale xB, maybe even as a Lexus if not a Toyota-version make sense? I doubt the current older buyers were attracted to the xB because the "Scion" designation made it more "kewl" but inspite of it because it offers such a great value.

Would it not make sense then to offer something for those of us not interested in being "kewl", especially if marketing research indicates that there are sufficient "squares" out there buying xB's for the value and not the youth image?

I'm also in agreement with you though that this car appeals to all age groups (for different reasons) because it embodies so many great characteristics. No doubt regardless of how Toyota badges or markets this car, the buyers both young and old will continue to display an unflagging interest for quite some time.

 

If you're worried about what your customers think, then you should have decked it out like a golf cart. Stick a Club Car logo on it and hang a golf bag rack off the back.

But chances are your customer base has no clue what a Scion is unless they watch a lot of TV aimed at the younger end of the market. Meanwhile, by driving a "Toyota" they might think, "Oh dear, is business that bad?"

By the way, I spent my first 16 years in Virginia -- in the DC suburbs.

 

I personally don't think that you can change the image of a car by marketing it under a different monicker. You could re-badge it as a Lexus, do a 5 lug conversion and replace the wheels with alloy wheels from a Lexus LS430, install heated leather seats, GPS navigation, and a sunroof... and people will still think of it as that "weird box car".

I understand that some people may want to exude an image of luxury, but almost any option that is desired can be installed by the dealer before you take ownership of the car. I do agree that OEM options for GPS, leather, and sunroof would be nice. I had to do these aftermarket, but my intention was merely to make the car more comfortable for myself -- not to pretend that it isn't a Scion or to project a different image. These options are so common now that it's almost expected for new cars to be equipped with them.

As for projecting a certain image to your clientele... I think that is much more easily conveyed through your actions than through the car you drive. Clients may think that you're worth more if you pulled up in a Mercedes S500, but they're paying for your services, not to be impressed. In all honesty, a "Toyota bB" is no more grown up than a "Scion xB".

In many ways, the xB is only targeted towards the youth market because of it's incredible value and radical styling. All those neon lights and mp3 stereos are things that youth will do to any car. I think that other cars that are targeted towards youth are the Ford Focus, the Honda Civic, and the Toyota Corolla -- and I think this because they're cheap, economical cars. I could hardly compare a Ford Focus to a Ford GT or a Toyota Sequoia to a Toyota Corolla. They're in radically different price ranges, and thus attract a different group of buyers.

But you know... there are about 500 sides to this story. I bought this car because it was cheap, it had lots of interior space, and it got 35MPG. That's probably the most "grown up" reason to buy a car if I could think of one.

 

I work daily with the same type clients. I used to drive a Blazer. Now that I have the xb, most people follow me out to the car to figure out what I'm driving. I really don't think the clients I deal with have any feelings about what I drive. I however don't think I shoud drive up in a Lexus either. Then they may feel I'm making too much money off them. Almost everyone I talk to asks about the funny little box I'm driving. Most I feel think the car is awesome with its price and gas mileage, not to mention the room it has. I personally don't feel that rebadging the car would help, because then I would have to explain the Toyota/Scion relationship. I just tell them its a new name brand made by Toyota. My .02..
Chuck

 

????

You say you're trying not to "identify with the Fast & Furious set" .... and yet you throw a big TRD (Toyota RACING Development) badge on the steering wheel.

mmmm hmmmmm......


And Old Punk.. you're 52? Crazy.. thought for sure you were around 20... wish my dad was as cool as you j/k

 

You're totally missing the point here. Toyota created the Scion nameplate precisely because their cars are viewed as so "grown up." Young people weren't buying them at all, so they dreamed up this hip-hop marketing campaign targeted towards us and came out with 3 highly customizable cars in hopes of attracting 16-30 year olds.

Older people started buying xBs because they're perfect for that demographic. They're extremely easy to get into and out of, they get good gas mileage, they have a lot of room, and they're cheap. The one thing that younger people complain about-the small engine- doesn't bother them at all.

The "youth market" thing is just marketing. I've said it before and I'll say it again: you bought a car, not a lifestyle. You're 45 years old. You should be mature enough to ignore the marketing and go with what's practical. So what if your son likes your car? Stop being so insecure.

Lexuses and BMWs exude luxury because they're expensive and you know they're expensive. The brands are associated with the lifestyle of your customers the way the Diesel brand is associated with hipsters.

Most dealers do, in fact, offer leather seats and cruise control as options. The navigation can be added without much trouble by any stereo installation shop.

 

hello,
i am 60 years old and this is my 12th toyota product,i dont care what emblems are on this car,this is the best deal for the money you will find anywhere,by the way i have lowered the car,took the emblems off,added a bb on the front,and about to do custom paint,strut bar and some serious tires,enjoy your scion as i have enjoyed mine. different strokes for different folks, peace!

 

Wisdom of the ages! How old are you again, Max2k?

 

Eighteen.

 

You missed the one thing that us Olde Folkes would like to see changed on the xB: The ride quality! Give us another inch of ride height and cushier suspension and the car would be perfect!

George

 

Thanks to all have responded to my inquiry thus far.

Let me first clarify that I do not feel insecure nor am I taking myself too seriously. I am not "worried" about what my customers think but it was part of the thinking behind going Toyota (and not Lexus... besides it IS a Toyota. Who would beleive an xB was a Lexus?) I am in no way classifying anyone or implying anything personal based on anyone's opinions on this subject. I would be just as happy to drive around in my toaster regardless of what it said on it. In fact I may buy another one for personal use an leave the badges alone within a few months.

There is no need to get personal. You don't know me and I don't know you so let's agree not to start slinging labels at each other because we have a different viewpoint.
Otherwise we could spend an eternity suggesting psychological reasons for everything each poster has or has not done to his car as evidence of deep-rooted mental issues. If anyone can read a person's mental state out of a couple of words in a auto-enthusiast BBS, they are wasting their time here; as Psychiatrists and Psychologists they could make a good living doing this professionally.


Rebadging it, changing the wheel covers, and changing the taillights was my way of personalizing my xB. It doesn't make mine "better" or more "mature" in actuality. It was my personal opinion however, that using the more recognized/established/respected Toyota name and a more "traditional"/less-mod looking taillights would remove the elements that the manufacturer obviously "tuned" to the younger public. It was not intended, nor does it, make the xB look more expensive.

I wanted to find out through this thread what your feelings were about Toyota's marketing these cars as Scion's and targeting the younger set with the current program, especially in light of the fact that sales are heavily away from that market.

It is clear that most of you feel that it is unimportant and insignificant whether Toyota sold these xB's as Scions or Toyota's. I am also quick to agree that changing the names on a badge does not essentially change a Chevy into a Cadillac as well as to restate that neither was this my intent or I might have had heated leather seats with wood-trimmings and a power sunroof installed together with some Lexus badging.

I do find it contradictory that while most of the respondants have said that putting Toyota badges on my xB was a waste of time and money, no one has suggested that the millions of $$$ that Toyota spent on marketing the xA, xB, and tC as Scion's was a comparably greater waste of money. All the Scion paraphanalia added to Toyota dealerships and special badging to try to set these cars apart has to have added something to the price of our vehicles. It is also interesting to me that I was told to wise-up and act my age because I ..."bought a car, not a lifestyle". While I am the first to wholeheartedly agree, isn't that precisely how and what Scion is marketing... a car made to fit a youthful lifestyle?

The xB is really not a unique independent specialty product in the sense that Toyota has marketed it. "Scion" does not exist in the VIN or any other viable entity associated with the xB. The registration/title lists the xB as a 2005 Toyota JTLKT334...... as does the door sill tag and the motor cover sports the Toyota oval and raised VVT-i. In fact beneath a very thin veneer of Scion, it's all Toyota bleeding through everywhere. (Even beneath the Scion logos on the hubcaps, you will find the recesses for the Toyota ovals.) Of course, it's made by Toyota but show me Chevrolet on your Cadillac registration/title, VIN plate or engine.

It is interesting to me when compared to the thread responses that Toyota has felt it necessary to spend millions? billions? of $$$ extra to rebadge US-bound cars as Scion or Lexus when these exist simply as Toyotas in Japan. It's obvious that Toyota does not agree with our stated "Rose by any other name..." position or it would not have put as much effort into their marketing strategy with the Scion.


I do feel that 2 years of sales data demonstrates now that the Scion name-project was not in-deed necessary to sell their cars. At least for the xB, the sales-figures show a distinct trend toward older buyers who were enticed by qualities other than the ones specifically targeted by Toyota with the intent of making the car appealing to younger buyers.


I believe the vehicle's positive attributes, low-price, and ease of modification sell the cars to young buyers regardless of the name. The lack of a separate brand designation never stopped young folks from buying and modifying countless other Toyota's, Honda's, Nissan's, and Mazda's with body-kits, neon, lowering, and performance mod.s. It didn't take spending bucks deluxe to create a new nameplate to get generation's X or Y to buy those cars. To believe that is to contradict what has been said repeatedly here in the thread; namely that names/badges don't matter. If younger people would not have bought xB's because Toyotas are for squares, then it has to be true that the Scion nameplate was necessary to create something separate that says "young" "cool". It then follows that rebadging as a Toyota makes it simply an unusually shaped economy car for squares and old people. It has to work both ways; if A=B then B=A.


Toyota readily admits that they created "Scion" to market to young folks and tailored the options program to fit the 20's crowd because of their spending on anything JDM. They hoped that a cafeteria-style menu of youth-oriented upgrades and a new name would accomplish this goal.

In part they have suceeded. What none of you have been able to deny though is that most of us would have bought them anyway, even if they had been left simply as another model of Toyota. I vehemently disagree that Toyota would have lost sales if the xB were sold here as a Toyota rather than going to all the extra work to market as a Scion. Those who know what these cars are know they are really Toyota's anyway.

The new name could be a double-edged sword. At a time when other car companies are simplifying and removing redundant marques (like Plymouth, Geo, Oldsmobile) in a world with twice as many (or more?) brands as in 1974, those who don't own one are more likely to say "Sci-who?" and lump the newcomer Scion in with the likes of another Korean-built offering of the Kia, Hyundai, Daewoo crowd. On the otherhand, the well-respected Toyota name has become popularly synonymous with bulletproof never-say-die quality at a reasonable price. There is enough variety within the brand that it cannot be labeled "square" or "cool" as a whole. It also engenders the possible risk that Toyota might examine their demographics and decide that Scion is a costly redundancy. If this happens Scion-named models could be "dated" at an early age like a Geo, Plymouth, or Olds as pre-2006 or whatever as part of a currently non-existent/failed?/discontinued nameplate.

I would be interested to hear if any of the over-35 xB owners would admit to buying an xB specifically because of the Scion marketing? Did the idea of a a practical, inexpensive, fuel efficient car that was clearly youth-marketed have a particular appeal? There is no denying from the Scion dealerships, TV, and website marketing that Scion is suggesting it is an expression of youthful independence to own a Scion. I would just as readily have bought it as a Toyota with the marketing aimed at it being "sensible" transportation, but am I in the minority and has the "youth" concept actually appealed to older buyers?


In any case, one thing is clear to me as a result of the response I have gotten here. Unless Toyota offers the xB under its own name in the near future, I am likely to have one of the only xB's rebadged as a Toyota. The majority of owners would not go to the trouble or think it is a wasted effort. Some no doubt are insulted that I have snubbed a unique brand concept that they personally espouse. To them, I offer my apologies. However, if the Scion concept is as stated in my "Welcome to Scion" Letter states, is that I ..."have joined a select group of individuals: People who want a vehicle that sets them apart from the crowd..." , then I am doing just that.

 

Actually, Toyota is doing remarkably well in hitting its demographic target. Yes, some of us olde folkes couldn't be restrained from buying the cars, but the median age of Scion buyers is the lowest in the industry. Compared to Honda's attempt at making the Element a hip youth vehicle and then ending up with a median buyer age in the high 40s, Toyota has done well.

Apples and oranges. You aren't trying to sell cars, Toyota is.

Yep, and the youth have fallen for it hook, line, and sinker. Take a relatively plain off-the-shelf Japanese econobox, print up some brochures disguised as hip-hop magazines, and capture a fair part of the youth market. I'd say that the Toyota marketing folks earned their money.

Americans have been used to having different trim lines go by different badges (chevy/buick/cadillac) for generations.

Some folks buy the car for what it is. Others buy the "lifestyle" hype. Toyota doesn't care, as long as they sell the cars.

You forgot one other teeny thing they did. They established the policy of fixed prices. They are hoping that they can train buyers to accept fixed prices so that they can apply this policy to their entire line. Scion was an experiment, and so far it has been successful in achieving its goals.

Well, we'll never know, will be? No sense worrying about it.

That only matters if you intend to sell the car at an early age. Toyota will continue to support the Scion, since they are Toyotas. It's not a deal like Geo, where Chevy might decide to drop support for the Suzuki-built vehicles. If Toyota decides to drop the nameplate, our cars simply become Toyotas, just as it says on the title and on virtually every part on the car. Your car will be sitting pretty, since it has Toyota badges all over it!

Are you kidding? I don't even understand the marketing! Somehow, pictures of scruffy-chinned adolescents sitting in a coffee shop with a Scion outside doesn't make me hot to buy the car!

Well, older buyers will look at a car that is marketed at younger buyers, but younger buyers won't give a second glance to a car marketed at older buyers. Who really wants to be thought of as "old?"

Yep, you're unique, just like all the rest of us

George