Well it is just as easy to ask, "who created god?". I guess you feel that believing god created the universe answers the question of how it all began. But it does not. It merely gives religious minds an easy "answer" that requires no logical reasoning and no proof, only that intangible word "faith". Because this great mass of humanity believe that there is a god, that Christ was born of a virgin and that those who believe as the preachers tell them, will go to heaven and live a life of eternal happiness, does not make it true.

Most people simply do not know any better. They are ignorant. They have been told religious fables just like the Santa Claus fable and they have no way of knowing the truth. They have heard only one side. They do not realize that 400,000,000 Chinese believe a different story, that 300,000,000 Hindus have 80 religions, that 200,000,000 Mohammedans have a still different belief and that millions of primitive people believe thousands of divisions of their own religions. All are different and all think other religions are false.

With chaotic inflation theory the only thing you needed to get a universe like ours started is a hundred-thousandth of a gram of matter. Thats enough to create a small chunk of vacuum that blows up into the billions and billions of galaxies we see around us. It sounds like cheating, but thats how the inflation theory works—all the matter in the universe gets created from the negative energy of the gravitational field.

Just as the CIT is just a theory, so is a god created universe only a theory.

Those ancient writers knew nothing of modern science. They had no telescopes to learn of astronomy. They did not realize that there are millions of stars. They had no scientific instruments. Their education was primitive. Only a few could read and write the tedious characters that stood for writings. Priests and preachers were almost the only scribes. The common people knew little except what they were told by their rulers.

Mental horizons were restricted by lack of communication with other peoples. Those who wrote the Bible didnt know that the earth was round or that America existed. They knew nothing of the north pole or the south pole. The flood of their own district was a flood of the whole world to them. Everyone they knew was in the flood, because the only people they knew were nearby. Airplanes, trains, autos, and steamships were unknown. Roads were trails, and travel was by horse or camel-back or by oxen, ___, or on foot. Twenty miles travel in a day was a long journey.

For such reasons few people ever got far from home. There was no mail system. The one we have today was founded about 1840. Rulers could send messengers running in relays but one auto today can cover more territory in a half hour than the runners did then in a whole day.

Mans mentality was poorly developed. There was little opportunity for mental development. Primitive minds had no store of scientific knowledge to draw from. They speculated and guessed at the facts of life. The more intelligent classes had more time for leisure and more time for imagining how the world began, what the controling forces were, and what people should do. The average man's vocabulary was limited. Primitive races of today in the lands where our religions originated are among the most backward on earth.

It was from the minds of such untutored primitive people that conceptions of gods, demons, devils, genii, angels, and all of the unseen manipulators of hut man destinies were imagined. Are we then so undeveloped mentally that we must rely on the imaginings of ignorant, backward minds of primitive peoples, just emerging from savagery, to determine the cause of our lives and thoughts in these days of scientific development and opportunities for study and knowledge?

Intelligent persons do not accept their teachings.

 

True. What people don't know, they attribute to God or a God, or several God's. It's been true since the dawn of time. That which is not understood, is attributed to magic.

Science is relatively young in the grand scheme of things. Will science be able to answer all questions eventually? doubtful, as they answer one question, 3 more pop up. But we no longer dance around fire to a drum to summon rain, or throw virgins into volcanos to apease fire Gods. Things have progressed, but the depth and width of scientific knowledge is growing every single day, and will continue to grow as long as we don't resort to the "well I don't get it, must be God," mind set of the Dark Ages.

 

You are partially on to something here, albeit not quite as literal as you want it to be.

The probable origin of religious festivals, holidays, customs, and beliefs can be traced through the history of mankind and through the present beliefs, customs, and festivals of the races and tribes in varying stages of cultural and mental development.

There is now a tendency by would-be scientists to explain primitive religions on the basis of mans so-called need for spiritual development. They put the cart before the horse. The so-called spiritual development is a result of the many ages of primitive, superstitious, and religious practices. They seek to excuse a characteristic of mankind which maintains superstitions practices which conflict with not only scientific knowledge but with common knowledge, by various methods of compromise and by crafty and ambiguous arguments.

Religious festivals usually occur at about the time of seasonal changes. Thus, Christmas, supposed to be the birthday of Christ, occurs at about the time of the change of the length of the day and by the old calendar probably was at that time, December 21. Easter and many other religious festivals occur in the Spring and other religious festivals occur at mid-Summer and in the Fall.

All of these festivals can be traced back to natural causes. Early man was greatly dependent upon the sun. During eclipses he was in fear that sunshine might not return. Even today in China, the primitive practice is followed of beating drums, cymbals, and blowing horns to try to drive away the dragon which is supposed to be swallowing the sun. Early man must have been afraid of the dark, because he had no fire and not much protection against animals. Hence, it was easy to understand early man's worshipping the sun as practiced by the Mazdaznans, an early Persian sect which still persists, by the Aztecs and Incas of the New World, and by many primitive religious groups. The sun was personified and worshipped as a god. The early Greeks and Romans followed this practice. The sun was all-powerful and meant everything to the primitives. The forces of darkness which swallowed up or drove away the sun were the enemies of mankind and these evolved into the Devil and into Satan. The hells of the ancient Greed and the primitive Christians and other religions were underground, where the forces of darkness were supposed to hold forth, unable to withstand the power of the sun.

It is easy to understand how the primitive peoples worshiped the moon as a lesser deity, because the moon gave them light and turned nights of discomfort and possible terror into something more tolerable. So the year was based on the time of the earth's movement around the sun and the month was based on the time of the changes of the moon. The word month itself originated from the word moon.

As the days grew shorter, darker and colder during Fall and Winter, mans apprehension of disaster increased, but when the ancient medicine men, witch-doctors and primitive priests were able to point out that the days began to increase after the Winter solstice, their fears became allayed and it was time for celebration and sacrifice. Even the customs of presents being given and the Santa Claus story originated in ancient Scandinavian, non-Christian customs. Probably, some of the primitive religious leaders took advantage of early man's ignorance to claim credit for these seasonal changes.

The Christian religion, like other religions, found it more convenient to use the festival days which had been celebrated from time immemorial and thus it was easy to substitute Christ for the Sun God which had been worshiped and who was the Savior, just as the sun was the personified Savior of the primitive people.
Easter brings another season, that is Spring, when the full power of the Sun expresses it self. The trees and flowers burst forth with leaves and fruit and the birds and other animals and very often, even primitive man, such as the Eskimo instinctively recognize Spring as the mating season. Here again is an occasion for celebration of the conquest of the powers of light over the powers of darkness. And in those latitudes where there is a change of season, the celebration is universal.

After the Summer and the harvests, when man has reaped the benefits of the long Summer season, it is natural that he should celebrate, and that the feeling of agreeableness at his success should be expressed in the festivals of thanksgiving, which are common in practically all countries. Here again the priests and primitive religious leaders required a religious expression of celebration.

Like the primitive peoples of Africa, the South Seas, and India today, early man considered every tree and stone to have a spirit. Animism is a common characteristic of all primitive peoples. The mysterious and unexplained sounds of thunder, the angry lashing of lightning, the mysterious sounds of the woods and forests, of the wind, the sea, the rivers, and the crackling of ice and rocks caused by expansion of ice and weather changes, all of which were little understood, gave him the ideas of spirits and devils which could do him harm unless he sacrificed to them.
There is little doubt that the origin of the folk stories of spirits and fairies developed from the phosphorescent lights of the swamps and fens, from the lightning bugs, fireflies, the phosphorescent minute sea life, and from the phosphorescent fungus in the forest. The strange lights, the origin of which was unknown to man for centuries, must have filled him with a feeling of fear and foreboding. Some of the Irish and Scandinavian stories of fairies and spirits can be traced to such origin. Thus, it is understandable how religion evolved and developed from these simple but mysterious natural phenomena, and, as is explained in another chapter, these imaginations and ideas, once started, were difficult to stop. Primitive man feared to express any doubt as to the power of any of these spirits or gods or devils. At times being invisible, they might know what he was thinking about or talking about, and might harm him.

Today the more primitive tribes of the South Seas, Africa, North and South America, and India, carry a great many kinds of amulets, tokens, stones, chains, beads, and all manner of such things to protect them from the imagined evil influence of the spirits of the stones and trees, animals and even other human beings. Many soldiers, fliers, and others also carry these tokens of good luck as a protection against possible evil happenings. And many of them believe in it. One craftily devout company went so far as to advertise a steel covered Bible to be worn over the heart, probably recognizing that the bullet-proof steel would offer more protection than the Holy Word.
The average man has never made a scientific study of the success of those who wore the charms and amulets as compared to those who did not.

As a matter of fact, for the most part, natural things, such as the trees and stones and rivers and seas and strange lights never injured the average man and so it was easy for him to believe, especially when he was so told, that these charms protected him. Even lightning struck only occasionally and struck a person very rarely, and then it was easy to explain that that individual had done something wrong. Most everybody has committed a sin of some kind and so disease and accidental natural disasters could be explained by the primitive witch-doctor, the priest or the religious leader as the result of some transgression by the individual.

So by these simple steps, evident and obvious to the simple minds of early and uncultured men, more complicated customs, practices, and religious systems gradually grew through the ages to those of the present day

 

O, people are totally capable of coming up with a god, they can imagine and write stories of aliens, golden tablets, crucifixed saviours, 6 armed elephant people. But today, no one comes up with a god on their own.

Tell me about a man who grew up in a cave by himself, and while totally isolated he "found" god. His god will probably be unlike any religion you heard of, he may think trees are devices put here by god to spy on us. That is a man I can respect. A man coming to god on his own, developing his own beliefs, rather than merely copying another just yet man's belief system.

If you read my statement about genesis 1:20-30, or the 76 generations from adam to man tell me what you think. The bible is false. It was written by people who thought the world was flat, slavery was good, women were 3rd class citizens, and praying to your god helped you kill innocent people who didn't believe the same as them.

Here's the b.s. retort to your statement: If something created everything, what created that?

Arguing that the universe had to have come from something before it, is the same as saying who created god? The lame "god has always been" can equally be used for "the universe has always been".

pick up a popular science you'll like it, every other month or so, they publish yet another theroy on how the universe went from the "great green atom".

and you are right, about god existing because there are too many unanswered questions. That's why humans invented a god, because they wanted to "know" so they came up with their own ideas of how/why their god made it that way. But the answer to all those questions is "god knows, i don't have to".

 

One cool thing I saw on the Discovery HD channel a few weeks ago was about dragons.
There have been drawings/sightings/myths about dragons on every continent.
All before the time of traveling beyond one's own "boundaries"
It was kinda cool - and all the renderings from different places looked identical.

I believe in dragons.

 

WOW! I havnen't read the last couple pages but we're talking about dragons now? This is the best abortion debate EVER!

HAHA....since we're talking about dragons might I add that european and asian dragons are a bit different. It is crazy how ever continent had a very similar flying beast though!

 

^^^ Only a BIT different.
Way more similar than not...

 

So let's rewind 10k years. You're out hunting for the week's meat. And you come across a fossil of a T-Rex head. What exactly would you make of it?

Dragon lore comes from dino bones and fossils, period.

And yes, this is the greatest abortion debate ever.

 

I can agree with that...but wasn't it more recent? The paintings, stories, etc. More like 1k or 2k years ago?

best indeed!

 

No, the drawings are of winged dragons breathing fire and other unique properties that differentiate them from dinosaurs.

I thought the same thing until they went into details...

 

Did dragons abort?

 

That's the smartest thing I've heard in a long time!

I believe this is exactly why einstein was most successful in his early life. As time passed more and more things he discovered and proved, limited his ability.

 

This is not about accepting someones teachings. Like I said I couldnt give a damn if your Christian, Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, etc. I believe that anyone can believe whatever they want. I feel everyone is allowed to.

And also like I've said I am willing to buy the theory that the entire universe was created from a tiny gram of material (aka big bang), but what I cannot believe is that something originated from nothing. That is not possible, hence there is a God, at least in my view.

I guess you can say I am "taking the easy way out" by believing something must have created that material and the space for the big bang to occur, but I feel arguing the existence of a God is easier than a universe without a God.

I am not arguing the bible is real, or jesus was real (these are personal beliefs that are pretty much faith based or whatever). I am arguing that I will believe that there is a God unless someone can prove how this universe started, and answer every question related to it, even including why we are here, and what death means and all that philosophical stuff.

Arguing abortion is a matter of personal reasons (again as this post has shown it's mostly been for economic reasons), but arguing that there is no God seems futile. I guess argument of a God or no God is impossible to prove either way, but the evidence clearly points out to the existence for me..

 

all you're saying is since you don't think something is possible, then god must be the reason, because you have to have the reason now, or even in your lifetime.

Definitely is easier. If you're up against a problem you can't solve, God must be the answer. that's no answer at all, that's an excuse.

here's the answer:

There is no axiom, quit looking for one, just let life be.

life is, because you were born and you are living. when you life is over, others keep on living. You're existence or "soul" does not need to keep continuing because you feel like it should, because you are all important.
Look i don't want to die, neither do alot of people, but christianity, like a lot of other religions, pretty much advocates eternal life so you don't die. There, no more being scared of dying, because you never do die, you probably believe the split second your body dies, your mind/soul enter a new existence that frees you from fear, and is much better than this life. I want to life forever too. Being an atheist can be depressing, because we do accept death. an actual death. ceasing to be. I look at it as just like how flowers die, and their nutrients enrich the soil and more life grows out of that.

No, I can prove things that go against what your bible says. And therefore your basis for your ideas of a god, are based off something wrong and false.
People can not prove something isn't, they can only prove something is.
I like how religious people make up the impossible criteria of "Prove my god doesn't exist". That's not you prove something.
Ok, prove my invisible fairy world doesn't exist. That's asinine.

and don't start talking evidence, because no christian has ever actually had evidence (evidence means actual phycial proof). But if you have evidence, let's hear it. Please be the first person ever in the history of mankind to show evidence of a god.

 

All they had to go on were bones so they filled the rest in with their imaginations.

What's more plausible, that, or there really were 100 ft long fire breathing flying lizards that haven't left a single fossil anywhere? Discovery channel has to get ratings too, and they have been known to leave off a fact or two in order to paint a specific picture.

 

Ok, so then what created the God that created the universe?

 

You just contradicted yourself.

But whatever (Im use to it)...OK...so you think that nothing created god, correct? That he was just "there" or "here" or whatever.


But the bible, which you state may or may not be real, does not explain these things either. Why put so much faith in 2000 year old "technology"?

Would you mind sharing some of this "evidence"?

 

I can't stress this enough...You have some strong points.

I also think that's it's highly unlikely that all this came from nothing but to say it's impossible is not good practice.

 

The arguments of God/No God are what are always blown up during any kind of abortion debates...
The real question is not whether or not there is a god.
The question is whether or not you can allow an institutionalised judgement to be passed on ALL members of a society full of various beliefs- or do you let these people choose for themselves?

If anyone claims to be of any kind of Judaic/Christian/Muslim beliefs, then they must recognise that their God will ultimately judge your deeds, as well as the ones you would have carried out if you were able. Passing laws to control peoples actions, does little to make people righteous, or godly, or even decent religiously.

The only true power that a government has is the use of physical force. This is a fact. Laws may be passed, but if the are not enforced they don't really exist. The detainment and/or inprisonment by physical force is exclusive right of the government, and the only true way to enforce a law. - and I'm trying to find where in the bible that Jesus says that the use of force can make others live 'the right way'.

 

Darn...dave beat me to it. Pretty much asks what Idid.