Anybody Own Firearms? Gun Control?
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Originally Posted by tCTaco
Originally Posted by Dwatts5250
How bad is illegal immagraion in MA...what Canadians???Well i suppose speaking french is about as bad as spanish....
But..the Canadians...got some nice guns...... :drool:
But..the Canadians...got some nice guns...... :drool:
Originally Posted by seattledave
Originally Posted by tCTaco
Originally Posted by Dwatts5250
How bad is illegal immagraion in MA...what Canadians???Well i suppose speaking french is about as bad as spanish....
But..the Canadians...got some nice guns...... :drool:
But..the Canadians...got some nice guns...... :drool:
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I'll briefly cover several items, in no particular order.
For those thinking or suggesting that banning guns, or even just somehow eliminating the strong, worldwide black market in them, would make all the peoples of the world safe, please note that long before the invention of gunpowder people were killing each other. Mass killings exist since before the beginnings of recorded history. Guns just change method.
For those still wondering, the VT assailant legally bought his Glock about a month ago from a gun shop in Virginia.
As to foreign nationals owning/carrying weapons in this country, I'm in Washington state, and our laws allow it. See http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.a...=true#9.41.170.
Many other states do, too.
For those insisting that knives are only a minor threat, please recall that the only weapons the 9/11 hijackers used were tiny boxcutters - knives with about a half inch of blade showing. Those were quite effective in killing thousands.
The only real difference between a small knife and a handgun are the distance at which they are effective. I knew one gentleman who was a swordmaster, and within the reach of his sword it was probably more dangerous than if he just had a handgun. Swords cover a broader arc and don't have to be re-loaded.
If one wants to see just how well a society with very few guns, but many blades, functions in history and in the modern world, do a bit of study about Japan. The number of killings with people chopped to ribbons is, and always has been, truly amazing.
Some people are dangerous, it matters not what tools they use.
Tom
P.S. You have to remember, Boise, that many of those for banning/strongly restricting guns are metropolitan folks who depend on others to kill their meat for them. Mentioning that millions of folks actually productively use firearms to acquire food, protect property and people, etc., does not compute, because that is foreign to their experience.
P.P.S In my limited use of firearms when interacting with other humans, I've only ever fired back at muzzle flashes in the night. That's considered retaliatory force - you shoot at me, I shoot back. See earlier post in same.
For those thinking or suggesting that banning guns, or even just somehow eliminating the strong, worldwide black market in them, would make all the peoples of the world safe, please note that long before the invention of gunpowder people were killing each other. Mass killings exist since before the beginnings of recorded history. Guns just change method.
For those still wondering, the VT assailant legally bought his Glock about a month ago from a gun shop in Virginia.
As to foreign nationals owning/carrying weapons in this country, I'm in Washington state, and our laws allow it. See http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.a...=true#9.41.170.
Many other states do, too.
For those insisting that knives are only a minor threat, please recall that the only weapons the 9/11 hijackers used were tiny boxcutters - knives with about a half inch of blade showing. Those were quite effective in killing thousands.
The only real difference between a small knife and a handgun are the distance at which they are effective. I knew one gentleman who was a swordmaster, and within the reach of his sword it was probably more dangerous than if he just had a handgun. Swords cover a broader arc and don't have to be re-loaded.
If one wants to see just how well a society with very few guns, but many blades, functions in history and in the modern world, do a bit of study about Japan. The number of killings with people chopped to ribbons is, and always has been, truly amazing.
Some people are dangerous, it matters not what tools they use.
Tom
P.S. You have to remember, Boise, that many of those for banning/strongly restricting guns are metropolitan folks who depend on others to kill their meat for them. Mentioning that millions of folks actually productively use firearms to acquire food, protect property and people, etc., does not compute, because that is foreign to their experience.
P.P.S In my limited use of firearms when interacting with other humans, I've only ever fired back at muzzle flashes in the night. That's considered retaliatory force - you shoot at me, I shoot back. See earlier post in same.
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You have to remember that many of those for banning/strongly restricting guns are metropolitan folks who depend on others to kill their meat for them. Mentioning that millions of folks actually productively use firearms to acquire food, protect property and people, etc., does not compute, because that is foreign to their experience.
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Originally Posted by scionofPCFL
To expand on this, there are also millions of Americans that live >30 min away from the nearest law enforcement officer. Do you know how much can be done to you or your family in a matter of 30 min?
When it comes to protecting oneself and one's loved ones, it is not minutes or hours that count, but seconds.
In nearly 40 years of carrying, I've only 'cleared leather' three times. Let me briefly describe one of those three.
I was visiting a friend's rental house, and we had just come in from the patio when someone came up on the front porch and quietly tried the front door. It was locked, so he left the porch and went around the side of the house, through the gate and into the back yard (we were watching from inside).
In back, he tried the back door, then went to the sliding patio doors, which were unlocked, since we had just come in.
The person slid open the sliding door and stepped in only to find that I was to the side of him with my 9mm trained on him, while Kimmie called the police.
He followed instructions very well, and lay on the floor, hands tied and me holding a gun on him, until the police arrived - about 10 minutes later.
Had I not been there, and been armed, there is no telling what this person - with a history of burglary and assault - would have done to the pretty young lady who lived there alone.
Tom
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That was pure, dumb luck, guys, coupled with the fact that I legally carry. I'm no Batman or hero, just some chump doing what he has to do in the circumstances.
BTW, for those wailing "Only in America!" about the VT shootings, might I remind them of a paragraph from one of my earlier posts?
It's NOT "Only in America," folks. It's any and everywhere. Keep in mind, 1996 was AFTER Australia confiscated and destroyed the majority of personally owned firearms on the continent...
Tom
BTW, for those wailing "Only in America!" about the VT shootings, might I remind them of a paragraph from one of my earlier posts?
...Then, on 28 April 1996, 32 people were shot to death, 19 were seriously injured, and three others were otherwise killed near Port Arthur, Tasmania.
Tom
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Originally Posted by Tomas
That was pure, dumb luck, guys, coupled with the fact that I legally carry. I'm no Batman or hero, just some chump doing what he has to do in the circumstances.
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Originally Posted by Tomas
Originally Posted by scionofPCFL
To expand on this, there are also millions of Americans that live >30 min away from the nearest law enforcement officer. Do you know how much can be done to you or your family in a matter of 30 min?
When it comes to protecting oneself and one's loved ones, it is not minutes or hours that count, but seconds.
In nearly 40 years of carrying, I've only 'cleared leather' three times. Let me briefly describe one of those three.
I was visiting a friend's rental house, and we had just come in from the patio when someone came up on the front porch and quietly tried the front door. It was locked, so he left the porch and went around the side of the house, through the gate and into the back yard (we were watching from inside).
In back, he tried the back door, then went to the sliding patio doors, which were unlocked, since we had just come in.
The person slid open the sliding door and stepped in only to find that I was to the side of him with my 9mm trained on him, while Kimmie called the police.
He followed instructions very well, and lay on the floor, hands tied and me holding a gun on him, until the police arrived - about 10 minutes later.
Had I not been there, and been armed, there is no telling what this person - with a history of burglary and assault - would have done to the pretty young lady who lived there alone.
Tom
I just took a concealed carry class in Texas, and your story is exactly why I felt it was important. It shows that just being prepared, even without firing a single shot, can change the outcome of an otherwise bad situation. It is amazing how well a criminal can listen when he/she knows you have the upper hand in the matter.
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Originally Posted by Amoxapine
phatcyclist, where did you go for your class? I have been thinking about taking one, so in the event that my GF changes her mind about me carrying, I can. 
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Originally Posted by Amoxapine
phatcyclist, where did you go for your class? I have been thinking about taking one, so in the event that my GF changes her mind about me carrying, I can.
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The fact of the matter is, not everyone is responsible enough to own a gun. Many people are too volatile and shortsighted to think their actions through in a manner as well thought out as many of the arguments in this thread. Tomas, I am not saying that you are alone in your respect and responsible outlook with regards to firearms (the number of active members in the NRA would say otherwise). but far more people act on a whim than with careful consideration (barring a strong mental imbalance of course). As such, the idea of arming college kids is just terrifying to me. When I was in college I made my bill payments by bouncing at a bar. I know what kind of irrational behavior occurs, and to be honest I was and still am guilty of the same irrational actions (albeit less so now).
The argument that a knife is just as deadly as a handgun in a close enough range seems flawed to me. A person unskilled in knife fighting can and often do miss vital organs and arteries. A man coming at you with a knife gets close to you, thereby allowing the possibility of fighting for your life. The knife is limited by the strength of it's wielder. A gun on the other hand is not. When someone is pointing a gun at you, you really have no option of fighting for your life. You run and dodge and hope they have bad aim. Perhaps this would be a point when someone could argue that if you had your own gun, you could shoot back, but this scenario isn't a duel at high noon. A person less skilled with a firearm can cause greater damage than the same man with a knife. Sure the person can miss, however the physics behind a bullet is just far more damaging to human tissue than a knife in the case where the shot or the stab/slash doesn't miss.
With that said....
Where the hell did this kid learn to shoot? he must have been wicked in Halo 2!!
The argument that a knife is just as deadly as a handgun in a close enough range seems flawed to me. A person unskilled in knife fighting can and often do miss vital organs and arteries. A man coming at you with a knife gets close to you, thereby allowing the possibility of fighting for your life. The knife is limited by the strength of it's wielder. A gun on the other hand is not. When someone is pointing a gun at you, you really have no option of fighting for your life. You run and dodge and hope they have bad aim. Perhaps this would be a point when someone could argue that if you had your own gun, you could shoot back, but this scenario isn't a duel at high noon. A person less skilled with a firearm can cause greater damage than the same man with a knife. Sure the person can miss, however the physics behind a bullet is just far more damaging to human tissue than a knife in the case where the shot or the stab/slash doesn't miss.
With that said....
Where the hell did this kid learn to shoot? he must have been wicked in Halo 2!!
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From: Royal Post Palace
Originally Posted by Rabid_Lemming
The fact of the matter is, not everyone is responsible enough to own a gun. Many people are too volatile and shortsighted to think their actions through in a manner as well thought out as many of the arguments in this thread. Tomas, I am not saying that you are alone in your respect and responsible outlook with regards to firearms (the number of active members in the NRA would say otherwise). but far more people act on a whim than with careful consideration (barring a strong mental imbalance of course). As such, the idea of arming college kids is just terrifying to me. When I was in college I made my bill payments by bouncing at a bar. I know what kind of irrational behavior occurs, and to be honest I was and still am guilty of the same irrational actions (albeit less so now).
The argument that a knife is just as deadly as a handgun in a close enough range seems flawed to me. A person unskilled in knife fighting can and often do miss vital organs and arteries. A man coming at you with a knife gets close to you, thereby allowing the possibility of fighting for your life. The knife is limited by the strength of it's wielder. A gun on the other hand is not. When someone is pointing a gun at you, you really have no option of fighting for your life. You run and dodge and hope they have bad aim. Perhaps this would be a point when someone could argue that if you had your own gun, you could shoot back, but this scenario isn't a duel at high noon. A person less skilled with a firearm can cause greater damage than the same man with a knife. Sure the person can miss, however the physics behind a bullet is just far more damaging to human tissue than a knife in the case where the shot or the stab/slash doesn't miss.
With that said....
Where the hell did this kid learn to shoot? he must have been wicked in Halo 2!!
The argument that a knife is just as deadly as a handgun in a close enough range seems flawed to me. A person unskilled in knife fighting can and often do miss vital organs and arteries. A man coming at you with a knife gets close to you, thereby allowing the possibility of fighting for your life. The knife is limited by the strength of it's wielder. A gun on the other hand is not. When someone is pointing a gun at you, you really have no option of fighting for your life. You run and dodge and hope they have bad aim. Perhaps this would be a point when someone could argue that if you had your own gun, you could shoot back, but this scenario isn't a duel at high noon. A person less skilled with a firearm can cause greater damage than the same man with a knife. Sure the person can miss, however the physics behind a bullet is just far more damaging to human tissue than a knife in the case where the shot or the stab/slash doesn't miss.
With that said....
Where the hell did this kid learn to shoot? he must have been wicked in Halo 2!!
that is EXACTLY what I was trying to get at and I said the same exact thing to my co-worker who understood me instead of calling me names =)
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OK, to go along with the bouncer and the gunfight mentions, here's some news less than a day old.
Self defense (or the defense of others) with the use of a firearm is often not pretty and elegant, but sometimes it is the only effective means of defense. A legally carried weapon in the hands of another citizen very possibly helped the outcome of this event:
Self defense (or the defense of others) with the use of a firearm is often not pretty and elegant, but sometimes it is the only effective means of defense. A legally carried weapon in the hands of another citizen very possibly helped the outcome of this event:
At least nine shots fired in Uptown Tavern shooting
By PAT GROSSMITH
New Hampshire Union Leader Staff
2:30 PM PDT, 17APR2007
18 hours, 38 minutes ago
At least nine bullets were fired in a shootout Saturday morning at a downtown bar that ended with the gunman who allegedly instigated the shooting hospitalized after he was shot twice by another customer.
About 50 people were inside the Uptown Tavern, 1301 Elm St., at 12:45 a.m. Saturday when the shooting happened, sending customers diving to the floor for cover.
Police said Eliezer Encarnacion, 26, of 214 Bremer St., Apt. 2, fired a .45-caliber semiautomatic handgun about a half-dozen times at two bouncers and the assistant manager standing in a rear doorway.
Customer Kenneth Gage then pulled out his Kel Tec .380 semiautomatic handgun and fired it three times, hitting Encarnacion twice, according to court records.
Police did not release Gage's age or address. He told police he pulled out his gun and fired it after Encarnacion shot at the bouncers and at him.
Encarnacion and Adrian Brown, 32, of 46 Dover St., Apt. 8, were drinking in the upstairs lounge when one of them inappropriately touched a woman, and they were asked to leave, David Somers, who co-owns the bar, told the New Hampshire Sunday News.
According to court records, bouncer Erick Turner said Brown became confrontational as he was removing him from the bar and assistant manager Jeremy Tinker came to his aid, as did Chad Chapman, another bouncer.
As they were escorting the two Virgin Islands natives out of the bar, Brown allegedly punched Chapman in the face several times.
Chapman grabbed him by the neck and began walking him out the rear door, according to Det. Stacy Howe's affidavit. Then Chapman heard the "cocking" action of a semiautomatic handgun and turned to see Encarnacion pointing a black gun directly at him.
Chapman dove back into the bar to avoid being shot.
Witness Travis Smith heard two gunshots and told police everybody in the bar "hit the deck." Then he heard several other gunshots and saw two black men run out the back door.
Smith and his friends chased after them, catching up to the wounded Encarnacion, who fell to the ground at Myrtle Street. Smith stayed with him until police arrived.
Witness Andre Dupont was outside the bar when he saw two black men near the rear entrance yelling. One of them pulled a black gun from his waistband and fired it six or seven times in two separate bursts, Dupont said.
After the second volley of gunshots, Gage told police he pulled out his gun and fired it at Encarnacion and Brown. Gage told investigators he was uncertain if one or both of the men had guns and were firing them.
Just before the shooting, Gage told police, he saw two bouncers arguing with Brown and Encarnacion. He learned one of them was a boxer and decided to walk over near the bouncers in case they needed help.
In 1999, Adrian Brown trained at the Queen City Boxing Gym. He and his four brothers were all involved in boxing and he and older brother, Gilbert Brown, both captured New England Golden Gloves championships.
One of the bouncers was trying to get Brown and Encarnacion out the rear door when a fight broke out, Gage said, and one of them began shooting directly at the bouncers and at him.
Gage, who voluntarily surrendered his gun to police, told investigators he was amazed no one was hit.
Police recovered six .45-caliber casings and three spent .380-caliber casings from the area where Encarnacion was standing at the time of the shooting. They also recovered the .45-caliber handgun.
Two fresh bullet holes were in the wall of the 4-by-4-foot alcove where Chapman, Tinker and Turner were standing.
Encarnacion has been charged in the shooting and is being detained on $100,000 cash/surety bail. He is to return to court on April 26 for a probable cause hearing and again on June 25 for a trial.
Brown, who was stopped by police at the intersection of Pine and Orange streets, pleaded innocent in Manchester District Court to simple assault, accusing him of punching Chapman in the face.
He told the judge he didn't know why he was being charged with anything. "I heard gunshots and I ran," he said. "I'm innocent."
Brown has a 1 1/2-to-3-year deferred jail sentence pending, which stems from a cocaine-related conviction in January in Hillsborough County Superior Court, according to the prosecutor.
His bail is $2,000 cash/surety. He is to return to court on June 28.
By PAT GROSSMITH
New Hampshire Union Leader Staff
2:30 PM PDT, 17APR2007
18 hours, 38 minutes ago
At least nine bullets were fired in a shootout Saturday morning at a downtown bar that ended with the gunman who allegedly instigated the shooting hospitalized after he was shot twice by another customer.
About 50 people were inside the Uptown Tavern, 1301 Elm St., at 12:45 a.m. Saturday when the shooting happened, sending customers diving to the floor for cover.
Police said Eliezer Encarnacion, 26, of 214 Bremer St., Apt. 2, fired a .45-caliber semiautomatic handgun about a half-dozen times at two bouncers and the assistant manager standing in a rear doorway.
Customer Kenneth Gage then pulled out his Kel Tec .380 semiautomatic handgun and fired it three times, hitting Encarnacion twice, according to court records.
Police did not release Gage's age or address. He told police he pulled out his gun and fired it after Encarnacion shot at the bouncers and at him.
Encarnacion and Adrian Brown, 32, of 46 Dover St., Apt. 8, were drinking in the upstairs lounge when one of them inappropriately touched a woman, and they were asked to leave, David Somers, who co-owns the bar, told the New Hampshire Sunday News.
According to court records, bouncer Erick Turner said Brown became confrontational as he was removing him from the bar and assistant manager Jeremy Tinker came to his aid, as did Chad Chapman, another bouncer.
As they were escorting the two Virgin Islands natives out of the bar, Brown allegedly punched Chapman in the face several times.
Chapman grabbed him by the neck and began walking him out the rear door, according to Det. Stacy Howe's affidavit. Then Chapman heard the "cocking" action of a semiautomatic handgun and turned to see Encarnacion pointing a black gun directly at him.
Chapman dove back into the bar to avoid being shot.
Witness Travis Smith heard two gunshots and told police everybody in the bar "hit the deck." Then he heard several other gunshots and saw two black men run out the back door.
Smith and his friends chased after them, catching up to the wounded Encarnacion, who fell to the ground at Myrtle Street. Smith stayed with him until police arrived.
Witness Andre Dupont was outside the bar when he saw two black men near the rear entrance yelling. One of them pulled a black gun from his waistband and fired it six or seven times in two separate bursts, Dupont said.
After the second volley of gunshots, Gage told police he pulled out his gun and fired it at Encarnacion and Brown. Gage told investigators he was uncertain if one or both of the men had guns and were firing them.
Just before the shooting, Gage told police, he saw two bouncers arguing with Brown and Encarnacion. He learned one of them was a boxer and decided to walk over near the bouncers in case they needed help.
In 1999, Adrian Brown trained at the Queen City Boxing Gym. He and his four brothers were all involved in boxing and he and older brother, Gilbert Brown, both captured New England Golden Gloves championships.
One of the bouncers was trying to get Brown and Encarnacion out the rear door when a fight broke out, Gage said, and one of them began shooting directly at the bouncers and at him.
Gage, who voluntarily surrendered his gun to police, told investigators he was amazed no one was hit.
Police recovered six .45-caliber casings and three spent .380-caliber casings from the area where Encarnacion was standing at the time of the shooting. They also recovered the .45-caliber handgun.
Two fresh bullet holes were in the wall of the 4-by-4-foot alcove where Chapman, Tinker and Turner were standing.
Encarnacion has been charged in the shooting and is being detained on $100,000 cash/surety bail. He is to return to court on April 26 for a probable cause hearing and again on June 25 for a trial.
Brown, who was stopped by police at the intersection of Pine and Orange streets, pleaded innocent in Manchester District Court to simple assault, accusing him of punching Chapman in the face.
He told the judge he didn't know why he was being charged with anything. "I heard gunshots and I ran," he said. "I'm innocent."
Brown has a 1 1/2-to-3-year deferred jail sentence pending, which stems from a cocaine-related conviction in January in Hillsborough County Superior Court, according to the prosecutor.
His bail is $2,000 cash/surety. He is to return to court on June 28.
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tomas i'm gonna go out on a limb and say that peopel do not need guns so they can acquire food , i know many a VERY , VERY hick people and they don;t go hunting for their main staple of food.