Come on dave, you know theists never apply logic to thier own beliefs... remember William of Occam?

 

Seriously... we need to start busting out some basic principles of logical debate. Maybe some people here will understand the proper concepts of logic. Logic =/= common sense or common belief or common "knowledge."

 

The best is when a christian tries to tell me that IIIII am closed minded. I can change my outlook based on new research/discoveries where as they are mandated to believe exactly what the bible says even in the face of overwhelming evidence. That one actually makes me mad and that is difficult to do.

 

Indeed. Good example. I always thought that when you give CPR you are saving someone's life. New research has shown that after about 15 minutes of the heartbeat and breathing have stopped, the body is actually better off NOT getting CPR. They found that the cells don't die right away from lack of oxygen, they actually die from too much oxygen being forced rapidly into the cells. The cells get used to having little to no oxygen and kind of switch gears. New techniques are being developed to slowly reintroduce oxygen into the body so toxic shock won't occur. So far the survival rate has increased by like 15-30% by using these new techniques. If I didn't have an open mind I'd never have believed that. I do understand how that would work though and I can't wait to see the research results and procedures.
Source

 

Maybe as a scientist you can appreciate this one...
When they take an incomplete or entirely inaccurate understanding of a scientific theory/law and try to use it to prove thier point. My fav would have to be how the second law of thermodynamics makes evolution impossible. That has been thrown my way a couple times.

 

I've even had them throw thermodynamics at me to disprove the big bang... 2 words: Quantum Singularity.

 

You know something i've always found interesting, the bible actually states both the 1st and 2nd laws of thermodynamics, as well as many other scientific 'discoveries' that were not 'discovered' for many many years later....

 

Oh I GOTTA hear this...

 

quote? link?

 

Oh... make that *secular link... I don't need to click on ilovethebible.com/thermodynamics to know that there will be some sort of misguided conception of science there.

But seriously the bible verse would do nicely.

 

1st Davidians 1:13: and the lord sayeth, behold my laws of thermodynamics as true, both one and two, and ye shall be rewarded.

 

The missing 11th and 12th commandments.

 

Hmmm... It's awfully quiet.

Matt/oldmanatee/krusty/etc., you guys know what xdorkx is talking about?

 

Forgive me for copy/pasting this from a christian website, but i'm not going to look up each one and type them out, lol

*ahem*

SCIENCE AS PROOF OF THE BIBLE

Whenever the Bible makes a scientific statement, it is always proven correct after man has
discovered all the relevant facts. In the Library of the Louvre in Paris there are 3.5 miles of
obsolete science books on the shelves. In 1861 the French Academy of Science published
a list of 51 "scientific facts" which supposedly contradicted the Bible. Today all 51 of these
"facts" are unacceptable to modern scientists.
Do other religious books contain scientifically accurate information? Consider the Vedas,
the Hindu Scriptures of India, in the following quote. This shows them to be very
unscientific, hence disproving Eastern religions and modern New Age thinking, which are
based on the Vedas. "The moon is 50,000 leagues higher than the sun (?), and shines by
its own light (?); night is caused by the sun's setting behind a huge mountain (?) several
thousand feet high, located in the centre of the earth (?), that this world, flat (?) and
triangular (?) is composed of 7 states (?) - one of honey, another of sugar, a third of butter,
and still another of wine, (?) and the whole mass is borne on the heads of countless
elephants (?) which in shaking produce earthquakes."
As you can see, there are at least nine clear scientific errors in this short passage of the
Vedas.
The Bible on the other hand contains no scientific errors in its 66 books.
Key: The Bible contains scientific information that was not known by man at the time of
writing. In many cases it was only discovered recently.
Question: How did the Bible possess knowledge not yet discovered by man?
Answer: God authored the Bible, and revealed information not yet known to man, so that
the world would know that the Bible is God's Word, coming from a mind much greater than
man's.
Question: Why did no other religious book reveal new scientific information?
Answer: Because other religious books are man made, are limited by man's then current
state of knowledge, and have not come from the all-knowing Creator, but are counterfeits
seeking to claim authority over us. Hence we reject them.
What examples of scientific facts revealed in the Bible, were unknown to man at the time of
w riting?


1. The Earth Hangs in Space.
"He hangs the earth upon nothing." Job 26:7 stated 1500BC.
Until modern times "experts" believed ideas such as the earth sat on four elephants, who
stood on a giant turtle, who swam in the ocean. Man could not imagine how the earth could
hang in space on nothing. Yet this is what happens due to gravitational attraction between
t he earth and the sun, giving the appearance that the earth hangs on nothing.

2. Earth at any time is part day-time and part night.
When the moment of Christ's second coming to earth is discussed in Luke 17:31-36,
Christ's return interrupts people sleeping at night on one part of the earth, and interrupts
others in the daytime grinding at the mill or working in the field. How did Jesus Christ
know that the earth at any point of time is half dark and half light? Because He is the allknowing
God. "..in the day when the Son of Man is revealed. (v.30). In that day.... he that is
in the field. (v.31). In that night there shall be two in one bed, one shall be taken, the other
left. (v.34). Two women shall be grinding together; one shall be taken, and the other left
( v.35). Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left." (v.36).

3. Cloud Balancing. "Dost thou know the balancing of the clouds?" Job 37:16.
Clouds are floating in the air, balanced by two forces: gravity pulling them downwards, and
w arm air pushing them upwards. How did Job know about this in 1500 BC? God told him.



5. Very Great Number of Stars.
"As the host of heaven cannot be numbered." Jeremiah 33:22 in 590 BC.
"He (God) telleth the number of stars; he calleth them all by their names." Psalm 147:4.
Ptolemy in 150AD dogmatically said that 1056 stars existed.
Some scientists state there 400 billion stars in the Milky Way, although "a 50% error either way is quite plausible...its just a guess.

6. The Height of Stars.
"Behold the height of the stars, how high they are." Job 22:12.
Man did not realise how high and far the stars are until Bessel in 1838 measured the
distances of stars using the parallax method. Alpha Centauri, earth's nearest star is 4 x
1013 kms (40,000 billion kms) away. It would take you 10 million years to get there if you
c ould travel there in your motorcar at 100 km per hour.

7. Pleiades Constellation is a Bound cluster, not breaking up.
"Canst thou bind the sweet influences (cluster) of Pleiades?" Job 38:31.
In 1520 BC, God said that the Pleiades star cluster is bound together in a highly stable
group.
Today using high-powered telescopes, this has been shown to be true. It is a bound cluster
of about 500 stars, 50 light years across and 410 light years away from earth.
The individual stars cannot overcome the "chains" of gravity and allow them to break away
from the cluster. The cluster is not expanding, nor breaking up, but is bound together. This
situation is very uncommon as the reverse is usually true of all open or galactic clusters.
Also, photographs reveal that some of it's stars are veiled in a faint transparent blue haze of
gas and dust, which beautifully reflect the glory of the stars in the cluster with their various
colours. The cluster is indeed "sweet" in colour as God said in Job 38:31.
Question: How did the Bible know these two details, which are not observable to the naked
eye?
Answer: The a ll-knowing God Who created the stars, authored the Bible.

8. Orion's Bands are loosed.
"Canst thou loose the bands of Orion?" Job 38:31
The constellation of Orion is a star system that is steadily expanding outwards. The
gravitational "bands" holding the constellation together have indeed been loosed, just as
God told Job. Orion is 350 light years across and 1600 light years from earth. This
expansion is not observable to the naked eye.
Question: How could the Bible tell the difference between two star systems in 1600 BC,
Pleiades being bound and Orion being loosed?
Answer: God authored the Bible. "Canst thou bind the sweet influences (cluster) of
Pleiades or loose the bands of Orion?" Job 38:31. God can and has done it.

9. Spherical Earth.
“It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth." Isaiah 40:22.
"..when he set a compass upon the face of the depth." Proverbs 8:27.
Circle 2329 = Compass 2329 in Hebrew is "Khoog" = to describe a circle, or circuit,
meaning the horizon which is circular.
In 712 BC, when Isaiah wrote this, people thought that the earth was flat, and that you could
sail over the edge of it and fall off. Columbus and Magellan proved that the earth was
circular by sailing around it in a circle from East to West and then returning to the point of
departure.
Question: How did the Bible know that the earth was spherical?
Answer: God wrote it.

10. Treasures of the Snow.
"Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow?” Job 38:22.
Snow crystals are invisible to the naked eye, but under a microscope every snow crystal is
different. No two snow crystals are the same. They are all beautiful 6-sided patterns, just
like exquisite treasures. How did the Bible know this 3300 years before the microscope was
i nvented? God wrote it.

11. All Mankind came from One Woman.
"Adam called his wife's name Eve: because she was the mother of all living." Genesis 3:20.
DNA is found in every cell, in both the nucleus and the mitochondrion (energy station).
Mitochondrial DNA is always and only inherited from the mother. Analysis of this DNA in
humans from all over the world shows unmistakably that all humans have inherited it from
one woman. This research was done by Wilson, Cann, and Stoneking from the University
of California, Berkeley.
( Creation Ex Nihilo, Vol.12, No.2, March 1990).

12. The Bloodstream Carries Life.
"The life of the flesh is in the blood." Leviticus 17:11.
From 400 BC to 1900 AD, a procedure called "blood letting" was popular. Sick people had
blood drained from their bloodstream as a supposed therapeutic measure. It was
responsible for killing millions of people, such as George Washington. People thought that
blood carried disease instead of life. By draining the blood, the patient died of blood loss.
N ow we give blood to some sick patients. The Bible was right again.

13. Diseases Caused by Pigs.
"And the swine...is unclean to you. Of their flesh shall ye not eat and their carcass shall ye
not touch". Leviticus 11:7,8.
Forbidding to eat pigs was because of:
• lack of refrigeration, and
• roasting pork over an open flame does not destroy the parasites.
Parasites are obtained by handling fresh pork.
Some diseases are caused by eating pork that is not properly cooked. For example,
Trichinosis larvae attach to the intestine when eaten. They then bore through the intestine
into the blood stream, and the larvae are carried to all parts of the body. They develop and
grow in a person's striated muscle.
Pork Tapeworm may feed off the intestine and grow to 12 foot long. It may be fatal in 10-
20 years.
God, by forbidding people to eat or touch pork, shows His care for us.
Question: How did the Bible know about the dangers of pork in 1500 BC?
Answer: God wrote the Bible.

14. Leprosy to be Quarantined.
"he (the leper) shall dwell alone; outside the camp shall his habitation be.Thou shalt burn
that wherein the plague is by fire." Leviticus 13:46,57. Moses laid down the rules to
recognise and to quarantine the infected leper as contagious, lest other people catch
l eprosy.

15. Sanitation.
"Thou shalt have a place outside the camp.... when you will ease yourself, you shall dig
(with a paddle) and shall turn back and cover that which cometh from thee.” Deuteronomy
23:12,13.
Up until 1800 AD, human excrement was dumped onto the unpaved, filthy streets. Powerful
stenches gripped villages and cities. Flies bred in the filth, spreading intestinal diseases that
killed millions of people. Such deaths by diseases like typhoid, cholera and dysentery could
have been avoided if they had obeyed the Bible.
Question: How did the Bible know this, when man couldn't understand it until 1800?
Answer: God wrote the Bible.
Moses never learned this information from Egypt, because Egypt's standard medical
textbook was the "Papyrus Ebers." It contained quack cures like "lizards blood, pigs teeth,
stinking fat and meat, pig's ear wax, excreta from humans, dogs, flies, cats, etc.!” Moses
n ever referred to these false cures in his writings.

16. Hands and Clothes Washing.
Until 1900 AD, many hospital patients died due to infections caused by doctors not washing
their hands or clothing after contact with infectious patients. The Bible required repeated
washing in running water with time allowed for drying and exposure to the sun to kill the
b acteria.

17. Fountains Under the Sea.
"Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea?" Job 38:16.
"When he strengthened the fountains of the deep." Proverbs 8:28.
There are at least 10,000 known underwater volcanoes, adding extra water to the oceans of
430 million tons each year.
Question: How did the Bible know what took place on the deep ocean floor?
A nswer: God wrote it.

18. The Water Cycle.
"All the rivers run into the sea; yet the sea is not full; unto the place from where the rivers
come, there they return again." Ecclesiestes 1:7.
Rain falls on the coast, runs down the rivers into the oceans, evaporates into clouds, and is
b lown back to land. It then rains, thus repeating what is known as the water cycle.

19. The Sun is the Source of the Earth's Wind Systems.
"By what way is the light parted, which scatters the east wind upon the earth?” Job 38:24.
Wind is caused by the uneven heating of the air around the earth by the sun. The sun also
heats the surface of the earth unevenly. Air above hot areas (such as land) expands and
rises. Air from cooler areas then flows in to take the place of heated air. This is called
c irculation.

20. Light can be Parted or Dispersed into a Rainbow Spectrum.
"By what way is the light parted (Heb.2505)?" Job 38:24. "Parted" in Hebrew is "chalaq”
which means, "separated".

White light can be separated into 7 colours of the spectrum which are red, orange, yellow,
green, blue, indigo and violet. This was not understood until experiments with light were
performed in the 1600's.
Note: Light is like Jesus Christ: "I am the light of the world." John 9:5. As light has seven
c olours, so Christ has the seven spirits of God. See Isaiah 11:1,2.

21. Winds blow in Circuits.
"The wind goes toward the south, and turns about unto the north, it whirls about
continually and the wind turns again according to his circuits." Ecclesiastes 1:6.
At the equator, the sun heats the air causing it to rise. In the upper atmosphere this air
flows away from the equator. When the air returns to the earth's surface, it flows across the
s urface. This moving surface air produces the six belts of prevailing winds around the earth.

22. Winds have Weight and hence Air Pressure.
"To make the weight for the winds." Job 28:25.
Galileo in 1600 AD noted that a suction pump would not raise water more than 34 feet.
Torricelli suggested that if air could support a column of water 34 feet high, then air should
support a column of mercury about 2.5 feet high, because mercury is 13 times as heavy as
water. Torricelli made a mercury barometer and proved that air has pressure and hence
w eight as the Bible says. God revealed that air has weight 3200 years earlier.

23. Sea Paths or Ocean Currents.
"Whatsoever passes through the paths of the sea". Psalm 8:8. "Paths" in Hebrew means
"customary roads." Matthew Maury is the father of Oceanography. A statue of him exists
in Virginia with charts of the sea in one hand and a Bible in the other. Until Maury's work
there were no charts of sailing lanes. One day during a temporary illness, his son read from
Psalm 8:8. Maury stopped him, asking him to read it again. Maury then said: "It is enough. If
the Word of God says that there are paths in the sea, they must be there, and I am going to
find them." Within a few years he had charted the sea lanes and ocean currents.
Question: How did the Bible know about sea paths or ocean currents?
A nswer: God wrote it.

24. Laws of Physics control matter, energy and motion.
God asked Job: "Knowest thou the ordinances (laws) of heaven?" Job 38:33. Ordinances
are physical laws that govern the movement of heavenly bodies, stars, planets, comets,
meteors etc. Examples include:
• Keplar's laws of equal areas of orbits
• Solar Physics
• Newton's law of universal gravitation
• Quantum mechanics
• Newton's three laws of motion
• Radioactive decay
• The first and second laws of thermodynamics
• Sub atomic particle laws
• Laws governing blackholes, quasars, pulsars etc.
The more that man learns about science, the more he realises that there is to learn.
Question: How did the Bible know that science operates on laws in 1500 BC?
A nswer: God wrote it

25. The First Law of Thermodynamics states that no new matter or energy is being
created in the known universe; it is only being interconverted from one form to another.
"On the seventh day God ended his work which He had made." Genesis 2:2.

26. The Second Law of Thermodynamics states that the disorder of the universe is
increasing. Systems are running from a high to a low state of energy.
"They (the earth and heavens) all shall wax old as doth a garment. And as a vesture shalt
thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same,and thy years shall not
fail." Hebrews 1:11,12.
Scientists admit that with all the energy that the sun burns up, it must become cold one day
in the distant future. The same must happen to all stars. This is called the "heat death of
the universe." Without solar heat, life on earth could not exist. Thankfully Jesus Christ is
going to remake this universe into a perfect state at the end of the Millennium.

27. Can a Whale swallow Jonah
"Now the Lord had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly
of the fish three days and three nights." Jonah 1:17. Many people use this as their reason
for doubting the Bible's truthfulness. How can a fish swallow a man?
Several cases in modern times have been reported of a whale swallowing a man who
survived. One is reported by Francis Fox in "Sixty-three years of Engineering" p.298-300
and confirmed by two scientists, one being M. DeParville, the scientific editor of "Journal
Des Debats" in Paris.
In February 1891, the whaling ship, "Star of the East" was near the Falkland Islands, where
they sighted a large sperm whale. Two boats were sent out after the whale. One boat
harpooned the whale, but the whale upset the other boat, drowning one man and the other
sailor James Bartley, disappearing without a trace. After the whale was killed and cut open
two days later, James Bartley was found unconscious and doubled up inside the whale. He
had lost his senses through fright and not through lack of air. His skin was bleached white
from stomach acid. He fully recovered. If a man can survive two days in a whale in 1891,
surely Jonah could have survived three days in a great fish in 862 BC.

C ONCLUSION:
The Bible not only includes that which is scientifically correct, but also totally avoids that
which is scientific nonsense as found in the books of many other religions. For example,
the ancient Egyptians believed that the world was hatched from a great cosmic egg which
had wings.
Because the Bible avoids scientific nonsense, and because the Bible contains scientific
information that was not known until recently, we conclude that the all-knowing Creator God
authored the Bible. This is a powerful argument to warrant our complete confidence in the
Bible's truth and reliability on every other issue of life.

 

There is also MUCH historical and archeological evidence/proof as well that proves the bible to be a reliable document on that level as well...i can discuss those as well if requested, but this thread is more about science....

 

 

Read it for yourself, it says what is says, I posted a bunch of stuff above

 

And most of it is a huge stretch. Sanitation? are you serious? The majority of scientists/archaeologists say that most cultures of the time had this basic understanding just like the hebrews did. I could take them all one by one if you want but I think dave or skeorx might already be doing that.

This is not an attack but you should look what the majority of the science community says instead of what the small fraction of non-secular scientists say.

 

Just like horoscopes and Nostrodaumus's writtings, most of the bible statements in the above are vague and can be attached to anything.

 

Lets wait for a 1by 1 then, anyways im gonna do some car talk for a bit, then i'm off work and headin home, so ttyl :-) good talking with y'all, lets keep it un-hostile