people that killed the natives, the first ones, were half of the ones who took the most land, the other half by rich british that came after. the ones who had land lived long enough to get rich by it and become literate as it was a way to be part of the upper class. the rich were the ones who were getting taxed the most in the colonies, and since the poor were too, they gathered them and had a good stance against britain and then revolted/got independence. the rich created the govt. all the literate generals got together and founded the articles and then the constitution.
that is also not generalizing as most of the rich think the same today as regards to BUSINESS. the u.s. goes to war to cripple other nations, settle puppet govts, and take resources. what's so different?

I'm not blaming the U.S. for creating everything that goes wrong. most instances, they just show up to do what the ydo, and making it worse only helps the fed.

i never mentioned conspiracy theories because I have been outside of your little bubble. I was born in a 3rd world country and I see and know what goes on with the government and American intervention. sadly, people from other latin american countries tell me about the same problems.

talk about having your eyes open when they are.

 

So you gave a generic and simplistic description of where we came from... again the US was created from other govt's. And lets be reasonable here, other areas of the world were just as corrupt, they just didnt get here in time or in the right numbers or they would have done the same thing. The Spanish were no strangers to slaughtering and eliminating whole races of people. The Africans created companies to sell their own into slavery.. the WORLD was not innocent then no more than it is now. And none of that has anything to with today. If it did, then I could say that the Spanish are all fanatics hell bent on converting or killing anyone in their path and that Africans all turn on each other and sell off their brother to make a dime. Obviously that is not so.

Other than that, if you grew up in (being born there and leaving doesnt mean much to me) a 3rd world country as you say, then you probably have been fed the most skewed news and "history" about the rest of the world than anyone else. And if that country hates the US, of course you have been taught to do so as well. But it is SO bad that you are here, driving your shiny new car around huh?

And I love how people from other parts of the world say we are in a "bubble" here. We are one of the most diverse nations, have free libraries, news fed to us from any country we wish to tune in on the dish and freedom to come and go as we please. Yet people like to use the crap excuse that we are somehow blind because we live in a bubble. Thats one hell of a large bubble

I dont quite get what points you are trying to make. If you want to say there is corruption in the govt, then I will agree with you there (and about EVERY other govt I have ever learned about). I have an inherent mistrust for any large body of power because it opens up the door for corruption to seep in. That goes for ALL govt's. But I dont believe that everything we do is for evil purposes, every war is of no reason or that every disaster is some conspiracy of the govt towards our people. That type of thinking is for the lunkheads with too many bumper stickers and not enough brains

 

i dont read the news and hear things. i studied history here and see what happened there and still see whenever i go.

Diverse doesnt mean you learn from other places. the news dont show you everything that happens. you have to be there.

People leaving their country to come here doesnt mean anything to you because you dont see what american intervention does to other economies and their everyday lives. when they come here and "rob" the economy here (actually helping) they just want the life they deserve and would have if the govt was actually independent like here.
our cars and single family home is only half of the work my fam and I do here. we help our families back there too.
These countries dont hate the U.S. they hate the govt. That is, those who understand what happens.
Most dont have the education to see why their country is so crippled when their presidents graduated from harvard and other big american universities in good standing just like american presidents.

you could blame past african governors for selling their people and the spanish for killing and converting people. do african governors sell people or dont help their country when they can now? maybe they are as sold as latin american governors. would spain continue to kill and convert if they could? i dunno.

heck, i dont know what every other country does to 3rd world nations around them. I know about my country and see how some other countries are in the same boat.

and you cant say anything about "we are doing things for evil purposes" because you are not them. you dont know what they do and they are not just gonna tell you. being american and patriotic does not put you in their families and give you positions in their companies/government.

the govt's agenda is not triggered to hurt their people. they want profits and **** with other peoples. if needed, they will send some of their own along with loads of minorities to get what they want.

 

But you CAN say what secret reasons our govt has because you ARE them? Thanks for proving half of my point to these people for me. Funny how people can assume the worst, yet if someone says what I am saying your reply is the above. Sounds like a self feeding side of the argument to me.

As far as most of what you said otherwise, you need to READ what I posted and try to at least follow it, since many of your comments are out of nowhere and dont remotely address what I was saying.

So your argument about immigration (and you seem to bring up the argument of illegal immigration by your points about robbing the country) is that it is OUR fault their lives are bad so we should not care who comes here? That is about as ludicrous an argument I have ever heard. So it is OUR fault the standard of living in Mexico is poor and that they have terrible issues with corruption in govt, so we should let them come "help" our economy by turning a blind eye to them working illegally and not paying taxes? Wow, that sure is some great economics magic you have performed there. And I guess the MS-21 gang, born south of the boarder and deemed the most dangerous street gang out there is not an issue to us at all? So open up the doors and be thankful? Letting everyone come in and do what they please (which is exactly what not enforcing immigration laws does) sure didnt work for the native americans did it? Doesnt work any more today.. probably worse. And growing up in the south central portion of the US and dealing day to day with the issues that illegal immigration can bring, I HAVE been there and lived it. I have seen it all from the good, honest immigrants who came here and did it right, work their @$$es off and support their familes, to the illegals who are ruining it for those very people.

But I am sure you have some reason why all of the above issues are Americas fault huh? If we go into other parts of the world and get in their business (Even in cases when called upon by the UN to do so) we should stay to ourselves. But then we should just open up the doors and let anyone and everyone in... Sure must be a great convenience to bend the argument to what you wish were true huh? Unfortunately, it doesnt change reality. And doesnt change the fact that this thread is full of more steaming bs than the movies it was started to discuss.

 

Actually those who want to believe something is BS will believe it-whether it is or not. Anyone can find the facts they believe to prove what they believe and because they believe their own facts that they trust they will never see the other side.

There are 'facts' in the concreteness of what happened, there are opinions on who, why and where the fault lies. There are questions on who is telling the truth and who has presented their side accurately with facts instead of 'their' facts.

The buildings fell, planes hit them, they did not fall in any way consistent with physics. The third, smaller tower fell without being hit.

Maybe the government knew, maybe the national guard didn't react for a reason, maybe the explosions were heard before the towers fell.

As far as the past experiences with vietnam and WW2-hey, you're going to believe what you're going to believe-we don't have the video proof that we do with 911

 

Your "proof" is what is shaky. There are as many viable descriptions of it happening without explosives as there are opinions that it "had " to involve them. Again, saying "jet fuel doesnt burn hot enough to melt steel" is in no way a valid statement. I can burn wood in the right manner with proper air flow and make metal malleable. And there was more than jet fuel present. So the mix of fuels, high airflow at the location, etc all have to be taken into account.

In other words, the videos, "expert conspiracy theorist opinons" etc are in no way proof that what you say happened. They are portions of the whole story that can be taken to mean what you want based upon what you believe, just as anything else. They are proof to you because the message fits your view of the govt, which is that it is out to get everyone, even with the motive is not sensible in any way. Not to mention the number of people involved having to keep secrecy, the fact that they somehow got a group of religious fanatics to take credit for it (which would mean a bunch of christian/white hating terrorists were co-operating with us... VERY shaky at best to believe), etc.

Some people are so over the top about this stuff that they blindly believe these things no matter what reason is presented. Those of us that are willing to look at both sides and sometimes take the conspiracy route, sometimes not depending on the whole story and motive are considered "sheep" or "blind" by those that blindly follow the conspiracy route no matter what. Seems that is the pot calling the kettle black huh?

You guys go ahead and always believe what makes life exciting for you and gives you reason to carry a chip on your shoulder, a sign down the street, or whatever makes you happy I guess

 

This is what I think is funny-that whole arguement does nothing to refute or agree with anything I said-it's simply stating an opinion that the writer holds to be true and his facts, proofs, ideas simply deal with what he is trying to say. (if this above statement has to do with the whole thread that is an opinion where these ideas are consistent and I am not directing this at you)

I said nothing about jet fuel, I said nothing about the governments involvement as far as being for or against, I said nothing about who was to blame.

As far as being blind, sheep, etc-wouldn't that go for anyone who believed either side without question or whole heartedly since there is no 'factual' evidence of who did it or how it was done?

You can have conspiracies either for or against things and it the same arguement just an opposite viewpoint and both are conspiracies. That would be the pot calling the kettle black by saying we know anything and anyone that say they 'know' what the truth is as far as the who, what when.

Wouldn't anyone defending against a conspiracy be carrying the same size chip only on the other shoulder and looking for the same excitment in defending what they believe?

 

omg i love this thread

 

I got to page three, have a head cold, and don't feel like reading any further. I am indifferent about religion. I say live and treat everyone with the same respect you would like for yourself and you will be happier. Happiness is more important than who or what you pray to.

I just want to assert here that the government does not run this great country of ours. Our country is controlled by the Central Bank. They are currently trying to scare everyone into another Great Depression.

You want a better government? Two points:
1) Quit raising minimum wage. Minimum wage shouldn't be something you want for it should be a stepping stone to greatness.
2) Go back to the gold standard.

 

well no but i did hear bush agree to being in a secret society, not denying having separate plans for the country, and reluctant to answer sensitive questions. and as jsa3mm said, the central bank is all over it. bankers bribe these societies to borrow from the bank (usually war) and work separate ways to band-aid the recessions caused by these decisions. the whole govt is not involved, but decision makers are.

seeing immigrants live here doesnt mean you know what happens in their country. there was no point in saying all that a all. btw it's ms-13. You ARE in a bubble.

You should see "a day without a mexican", then you'll see how taxes aint shiat for what they do and the wages they do it for.

I dont wanna say that the U.S. should let everyone in. if you knew how the u.s. is all over latin america you'd understand that illegal immigration wouldnt be necessary otherwise.

And the UN doesnt have the u.s. as primary hands-on military power to do what they decide. there's a reason why the u.s. is there- even besides military reasons.

to jsa3mm: it'd be great, but who has the gold to go back to that standard? wouldnt most of the govt gold be sold away if it is not needed to back up the currency? and good point on minimum wage. that just raises inflation, though not like gas does.

 

It took my friends' mom 20 years to become a legal U.S. citizen. That's just crazy! I don't think it should take 20 years. I say anywhere from 5-10 years would be nominal.

There should also be a part in the testing where someone has to speak English and hold a conversation with an American citizen. I could give a poop less if you can read English (half of the Americans born here can't even do that), but at least be able to speak to me, I to you, and we can both comprehend what comes out of each others' mouths.

exzess, I believe we seized a good bit of gold from Huessin's mansion. Why not do more of that? I am sure there's plenty of gold somewhere because that's what America paid Osama Bin Laden in to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan.

 

wow... I had a typo on the gang name.. that does not equal me being in a bubble... but hey, if you gotta nit-pick to prove you got me on something.. go right ahead

But hey, you guys have your own realm of truth you have built from "facts" that dont really come from anywhere. So what do I know? You conspiracy theorists have your super secret access to all the "facts' it seems huh?

And if the "secret society" you refer to is the Masons.. so have the large majority of all of our presidents along with god knows how many other wealthy, important men.. and some not so wealthy men. My grandfather was also a mason and was not evil (probably the most honest, hard working, god fearing man you could ever meet) or wealthy

In other words, you can make it sound all bad saying "he is in a secret society". In reality, it means little to nothing. Just the fact that they dont publish much about themselves makes all the conspiracy people run out saying everything from them being strange to them being satan worshipers Someone not answering sensitive questions automatically means some sinister plot to you guys.. that is the really funny part. If they dont answer completely, it HAS to mean all bad.. lets go panic!!!!!

 

engifineer, are you talking to me?

 

why would you keep things secret that have direct relationship to your people?

there's no secret sources. google it/youtube it. make sure you do before you post that they could've easily faked the video or that its not him or that it has no importance.

If you're trying to prove/argue your stance on a FORUM you can't possibly typo soimething like that. if you wrote a sentence that was worded weirdly and could be interpreted the wrong way, that would be different.

The bush family has so much support from them and others because of how much importance they put on other nations' oil and their success on taking it. it's not like some random wealthy banker/corp owner club with political power would need to keep their golfing/fishing/picnic gatherings a secret.

jsa3mm- that's true, but there needs to be a huge load of gold to back up a complex economy to keep the value of the dollar at least like it is now.

That is also true about citizenship. For their own sake and those around them, they should be able to speak the main language. ingles sin barreras ftw! i mean, if you can stay here for that long, that should be expected.

 

engifineer -only as a point-you who are conspiracy theorists (in the opposite direction from the 'others') must have "super secret access to all the "facts' " yourselves to think/believe you are right.

It is two sides to the same coin-one side sees heads, the other tails. Neither sees the other's side and therefore only believes and can stand on what they see. It is only those who say, there might be something on the other side of the coin and it might not be the same as my side-that really understand (notice I didn't say know)

Facts are not actual because everything is based on an assumption. Whether it's the assumption that metal burns, whether it's the belief that something has never happened before so how can it happen now, the belief that we trust in out senses and out emotions and our guts (so to speak).

At some point everything goes back to a belief so there are no facts just like a castle built on sand-no matter how well the castle is built and how heavily reinforced it is, eventually there will always be a chance it will crumble and fall away.

 

I understand there needs to be huge loads of gold in order to go back to the gold standard. I really don't care what we would use as the standard, but we need to get away from the Central Banking system we currently have. They are the one true monopoly.

 

Ah, the Masons.

"Who controls the British crown?
Who keeps the metric system down?
We do, we do

Who keeps Atlantis off the maps?
Who keeps the Martians under wraps?
We do, we do

Who holds back the elctric car?
Who makes Steve Gutenberg a star?
We do, we do

Who robs gamefish of their site?
Who rigs every Oscar night?
We do, we do!"

As for the castle on sand bit, check out the hotel built on an island of sand in Dubai. History or Discovery did a special on it, there's some crazy engineering to it but yes, you can build a solid castle on sand. It will just cost you $650 million to build. I know Wiki isn't the best source to quote but I'm lasy and it was first on Google. Sadly, South Park was right on the money on interior design, for it features gold metal accents and purple carpeting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burj_Al_Arab

Regardless of what you believe happened / is happening, if you want real change either move to another country, overthrow the current government or change the voting map. #3 is the easiest, just stop letting Congress have a 99% incumbancy rate and only the "battleground" states with their easily fallable voting procedures deciding who is the next president.

If someone can tell me how to get a 3rd party 5% so they can get into the debates next time around, please let me know. I really don't care at this point if it's Green, Libertarian, or Communist.

 

it's true jsa3mm. it's hard to change that when they basically have all the power, but if we can somehow make the fed a part of the govt, which recieves publicly elected reps (direct votes) then maybe it'll be better. also for the president! direct votes is the only way that people's votes really count.

vettereddie- hotel is huge! instead of overthrowing the whole got, there should be real democracy, as I told jsa3mm above. that way there would be no battle states.