Interest in Dan Gardner Spec tC rear sway & coilovers by Progress?
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Scikotics
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 951
From: Denver, CO
Using simple mathematics this bar seems much more appealing than the regular Progress bar currently on my car. Torsional rigidity is diameter to the fourth power which by rough calculation means the new bar is roughly 66.7% stiffer than the current Progress bar. If it has the same moment arm as the current Progress bar this is still a significant difference. If it has a shorter moment arm, even more. It is almost 200% stiffer than stock just considering diameter, neglecting moment arm.
Basically, the numbers make a significant difference in my mind. I just want to know how much the improvement in handling will be over the current Progress bar, realistically.
Basically, the numbers make a significant difference in my mind. I just want to know how much the improvement in handling will be over the current Progress bar, realistically.
You can't exactly measure the improvement in handling compared to the regular Progress bar. It really just comes down to a personal opinion based on driving preference. Like x bar shows this and so improvement compared to y bar. The answer will be vague. However Dan Garner used this bar on his award winning tC, so there probably is a legit improvement. Any who, you can't really go wrong when the bar is just a few more dollars then the standard one.
Paul or Dan, is the bar gonna come with a limited edition badge or something? I mean an actual badge that is engraved onto the bar, not a sticker.
Paul or Dan, is the bar gonna come with a limited edition badge or something? I mean an actual badge that is engraved onto the bar, not a sticker.
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Scinergy
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Joined: Oct 2006
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From: SoCal
Guys,
This bar WILL absolutely provide for additional rotation. The softest setting is your best bet for the street, but this bar is definitely for folks that sometimes AutoX or do other events on closed courses.
As for the limited edition stuff...we are launching our new brand and this will be the first offering under that brand. We did, however, offer the limited edition Enkei wheels last year, but not under this new brand. More info on the brand to come soon.
At any rate, at the price point everyone is looking to pay, a badge won't make it, but my custom specs, powdercoat and a cool new branded sticker will be standard.
As coilover interest builds, we can offer the badge and/or something more permanent to the shock body.
This bar WILL absolutely provide for additional rotation. The softest setting is your best bet for the street, but this bar is definitely for folks that sometimes AutoX or do other events on closed courses.
As for the limited edition stuff...we are launching our new brand and this will be the first offering under that brand. We did, however, offer the limited edition Enkei wheels last year, but not under this new brand. More info on the brand to come soon.
At any rate, at the price point everyone is looking to pay, a badge won't make it, but my custom specs, powdercoat and a cool new branded sticker will be standard.
As coilover interest builds, we can offer the badge and/or something more permanent to the shock body.
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Banned
Scionetics
KAD
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 11,936
From: Western NY
Guys,
This bar WILL absolutely provide for additional rotation. The softest setting is your best bet for the street, but this bar is definitely for folks that sometimes AutoX or do other events on closed courses.
As for the limited edition stuff...we are launching our new brand and this will be the first offering under that brand. We did, however, offer the limited edition Enkei wheels last year, but not under this new brand. More info on the brand to come soon.
At any rate, at the price point everyone is looking to pay, a badge won't make it, but my custom specs, powdercoat and a cool new branded sticker will be standard.
As coilover interest builds, we can offer the badge and/or something more permanent to the shock body.
This bar WILL absolutely provide for additional rotation. The softest setting is your best bet for the street, but this bar is definitely for folks that sometimes AutoX or do other events on closed courses.
As for the limited edition stuff...we are launching our new brand and this will be the first offering under that brand. We did, however, offer the limited edition Enkei wheels last year, but not under this new brand. More info on the brand to come soon.
At any rate, at the price point everyone is looking to pay, a badge won't make it, but my custom specs, powdercoat and a cool new branded sticker will be standard.
As coilover interest builds, we can offer the badge and/or something more permanent to the shock body.
Senior Member
Scikotics
SL Member
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 951
From: Denver, CO
You can't exactly measure the improvement in handling compared to the regular Progress bar. It really just comes down to a personal opinion based on driving preference. Like x bar shows this and so improvement compared to y bar. The answer will be vague. However Dan Garner used this bar on his award winning tC, so there probably is a legit improvement. Any who, you can't really go wrong when the bar is just a few more dollars then the standard one.
Paul or Dan, is the bar gonna come with a limited edition badge or something? I mean an actual badge that is engraved onto the bar, not a sticker.
Paul or Dan, is the bar gonna come with a limited edition badge or something? I mean an actual badge that is engraved onto the bar, not a sticker.
22mm standard to 25mm bar and yellow color. Thats what I understand so far to be the difference. Besides weight, can someone tell me the pros and cons to running a hallow or solid bar?
hollow bars increase the stiffness of the bar itself without needing to increase the outer diameter and they are usually lighter as well. i think the tradeoff is strength though
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 2,184
From: Blue Springs, MO
Also would like more pros v cons on the hollow and solid bars. Obviously the hollow bars can flex more, so therefore maybe not create as much rotation but how much of a difference are we talking? Just wondering as I am on hotchkis, and wondering why they went hollow in the first place.
assuming both are the same external diamter:
hollow= stiffer/lighter
solid= softer/stronger
make sense?
i have always learned that increasing the inner diameter is like triangulating a bridge to reinforce it. the hollow bar should be stiffer compared to a solid counterpart. i think its only stronger in a twisting motion like what a sway bar does, however if you were to bend it i dont think the hollow would be a strong. just what i have always been taught though
hollow= stiffer/lighter
solid= softer/stronger
make sense?
i have always learned that increasing the inner diameter is like triangulating a bridge to reinforce it. the hollow bar should be stiffer compared to a solid counterpart. i think its only stronger in a twisting motion like what a sway bar does, however if you were to bend it i dont think the hollow would be a strong. just what i have always been taught though
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 628
From: SoCal
Guys,
A solid bar is always stiffer and stronger, but at the expense of weight. A hollow bar is weaker, and must have a bigger OD to achieve the same stiffness. Hollow bars are used because the way the math works, the OD plays the single greatest role in the bar's stiffness.
I don't have the math handy here at Panera, but know you'll need a bigger OD hollow bar to equal our solid one inch bar. Also the ears or moment arms play a role in the stiffness. Our bar is three-way adjustable. The stiffest setting (innermost holes) truly should only be played with on a closed course!
Our bar versus the off-the-shelf Progress bar WILL give you more rotation. You want angles, degrees of additional at different throttle points with different tires on different surfaces? We obviously cannot give that to you. Know that we've used the SAME bar for 15K RACE ONLY MILES with zero issues
Paul should be posting pre-order info and final pricing in the next day or two. Might be a new thread. Keep an eye out!
And yes, custom measurement bar with special brackets and big poly bushings, custom powdercoat, custom endlinks (if ordered with links) and custom decals. I think you guys will like them quite a bit. =)
A solid bar is always stiffer and stronger, but at the expense of weight. A hollow bar is weaker, and must have a bigger OD to achieve the same stiffness. Hollow bars are used because the way the math works, the OD plays the single greatest role in the bar's stiffness.
I don't have the math handy here at Panera, but know you'll need a bigger OD hollow bar to equal our solid one inch bar. Also the ears or moment arms play a role in the stiffness. Our bar is three-way adjustable. The stiffest setting (innermost holes) truly should only be played with on a closed course!
Our bar versus the off-the-shelf Progress bar WILL give you more rotation. You want angles, degrees of additional at different throttle points with different tires on different surfaces? We obviously cannot give that to you. Know that we've used the SAME bar for 15K RACE ONLY MILES with zero issues
Paul should be posting pre-order info and final pricing in the next day or two. Might be a new thread. Keep an eye out!
And yes, custom measurement bar with special brackets and big poly bushings, custom powdercoat, custom endlinks (if ordered with links) and custom decals. I think you guys will like them quite a bit. =)
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SL Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 2,184
From: Blue Springs, MO
I get what your saying, and my hotchkis is bigger at 27mm and is 3-way adjustable as well. In fact, I have dezod's endlinks and I bent one of them in the first week. Still haven't got around to replacing them. Not saying mine is better or stiffer since yours is obviously made/built for your racing needs, I was just trying to rationalize spending money on it is all.
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 628
From: SoCal
Well, then you also get into wall thickness. The link below should enlighten. I've pasted the conclusion here as well.
http://www.whiteline.com.au/docs/bul...%20Swaybar.pdf
http://www.whiteline.com.au/docs/bul...%20Swaybar.pdf
Conclusion
Tube torsion members can be used successfully as swaybars with some benefit in weight
reduction.
As an example, 2 individual, rate equivalent (approximately), common sized generic bars
1100mm long with 300mm blades, one solid 24mm the other tube of 25.4 x 3.96mm (1”
x 0.156”) gives a weight reduction of about 2.5kg with about 200g of that as unsprung
mass per wheel.
However the downside to these is the increase in stress levels for equal OD or rate, and
therefore reduced strength. Also the complications seen in manufacture swaybars from
tubular medium, and the importance of geometric control under bending make these more
difficult and expensive to make. The attachment points at the blades can also be a
problem with these swaybar designs.
The additional complications and downsides of hollow bars seem to outweigh their
advantage in overall weight and unsprung mass, which can be seen to only be marginal in
street car application. Even OE manufacturers rarely use this type of design in their
swaybars. However with the right conditions and setups, they can bring some gain in
racing situations, which can require weight reductions to the gram.
Tube torsion members can be used successfully as swaybars with some benefit in weight
reduction.
As an example, 2 individual, rate equivalent (approximately), common sized generic bars
1100mm long with 300mm blades, one solid 24mm the other tube of 25.4 x 3.96mm (1”
x 0.156”) gives a weight reduction of about 2.5kg with about 200g of that as unsprung
mass per wheel.
However the downside to these is the increase in stress levels for equal OD or rate, and
therefore reduced strength. Also the complications seen in manufacture swaybars from
tubular medium, and the importance of geometric control under bending make these more
difficult and expensive to make. The attachment points at the blades can also be a
problem with these swaybar designs.
The additional complications and downsides of hollow bars seem to outweigh their
advantage in overall weight and unsprung mass, which can be seen to only be marginal in
street car application. Even OE manufacturers rarely use this type of design in their
swaybars. However with the right conditions and setups, they can bring some gain in
racing situations, which can require weight reductions to the gram.
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SL Member
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 628
From: SoCal