ok, this thread is getting pretty good.

From reading and talking with people, I have come to the conclusion that adding a ground wire kit "may" improve current flow in the charging electrical system. I don't think it has anything to do with the computer directly, but it improves on the charging system in the vehicle. I can't confirm this without doing testing.by improving the charging system, it in turn feels like gains in horsepower. In reality it just allows your alternator to work more effecient.

 

I recently took the wiring diagram that Mikochu designed and installed it in my box. I have definately seen a smoother idle (not as low as some say, but around 850 RPM), better throttle response, more power to my subs/ headunit, and brighter lights. As far as significant power gains, I sure they are there, but you won't really be able to notice them during everyday driving. Pis of my install can be found here on page 4 https://www.scionlife.com/forums/vie...261&highlight=

 

With so many people getting positive results like this. It's amazing that people still say that ground wires don't do anything.

 

Anecdotal evidence is NOT proof. I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not, but that kind of thing doesn't cut it in the real world.
It's a well-known factoid that people think a lot if things work - ever hear of placebos in medical research?

Scott

 

i just got a apexi gounding system ill be putting it on this weekend along w/ perrin fuel rail steel braided clutch and brake lines and otg rear shims will let you guys know if i feel in differance an anything

 

I agree completely. I've been into high end audio and I've always replaced my grounds for show with larger gauge wire. It never made a difference in the several cars that I have owned. One other thing to keep in mind is that the high end audio cable has more strands which actually increases resistsance so better make sure you are increasing the gauge of the wire because of this.

I can't believe that people think Toyota was so stupid as to cut corners by using cheap grounding wire. Or do we think that Toyota electrical engineers just didn't do the right job? Case and point, consider the xB and how little room there is for performance improvement. Remember twiddler's quest for more power? Or that sheet metal intake manifold that would replace the cheap plastic one? What did they both discover? Toyota engineers are actually pretty friggin competent.

What we're seeing here is that skeptics don't install these grounding kits on their cars. Only people hopeful of gaining power or a 100 RPM idle. So it's very difficult to get objective comments.

 

Actually since I used to build cars for toyota I know the system they use for grounds.
It can really be improved. They paint the car, then when attaching ground, don't scrape the paint ( which adds resistance )

For instance, the center console ground is attached to a piece of bracing( that is coated to prevent rust) that is bolted to another piece of bracing at the top(coated as well) and both of those are bolted to the floor pan or fire wall ( both of thoise locations have been dipped in primer ( even if they are galvanized) and then sprayed with paint.
Now the ground that the battery is attached to is also painted, look at the radiator support up front under the hood and at the transmission ( coated to prevent oxidation while in process)

Now to really improve these you must scrape the paint and clean off all coatings off before they are attached, which are not done at the factory. The military( NASA) has a spec that calls for all paint to be scraped and the area cleaned with a degreaser for
all grounding connections.

Using this spec on a mass produced car is not cost effective, so yes toyota does scrimp and save at every chance they get. So adding a grounding wire kit will and does help, but must be properly installed to see the real gains from it.

 

Yes, Very well put frogbox.
Manufacturers scimp all the time inorder to save money. As long as something works so so for the masses it's all good. Only problem that is not good enough for me.

 

When was it determined that the Scion ground system only worked "so-so"? Grounds are best measured with an ohmmeter and I am quite sure if some of these posters knew how to use one and actually did, it would become readily apparant how the grounding system in a Scion actually performs. I think most of the posters raving about the stellar improvement after adding various and random ground wires are only trying to convince themself that their "me too", impulsive purchase was justified. If you like 'em, by all means get some! But for the "junk science" and "expert" testimonials put forth, I still say prove it scientifically and I will be a convert. Until then, I think it is a useless mod if done with the hopes of truly improving upon something that works just fine as is. I also am very aware of the military and standard aircraft practice for grounding as I also happen to be an A&P certified mechanic with quite a few years experience with Delta Airlines as a mechanic at the Tech-Ops center in Atlanta doing aircraft overhaul. The difference being most all of the parts tou are referring to are aluminum and are either alodized or anodized, then primed with a self-etching epoxy and then painted with polyurethane paint. Aircraft fasteners typically consist of a nut, washers, and a bolt going through a hole in the aluminum. They are not tapped holes in steel with an interference fit thread on the fastener. That is why aircraft parts must be brushed down to bare metal for good ground points. The comparison sounds good enough but in practice we,re discussing two completely different animals........

 

When the addition of another ground system is added and everything works better.

 

Not only that, but when you screw that screw or bolt in, it's touching the threads - which are NOT painted!
It keeps coming down to voodoo, but Frog at least tried by putting some semi-realistic scenarios in there...

Scott

 

Yeah, like when I wax my car and it's faster.
Or, I drink coffee and I can run a marathon.
Or when I wear a magnet on my wrist and my arthritis is gone.
Or my fatter fartpipe gives me more HP!

Come on. Nobody - nobody - has offered up any proof.
No data.

Bunk.

 

Are you 2 serious or just thick. I love how everyone else is wrong and you 2 are so right. Instead of all the folks that know that grounding wires work. I feel you 2 should prove why the stock system is so good and doesn't need improvement.

 

No. Jethro, you can't prove a negative.
Thick?
YOU need some edumakation

Scott

 

If you read what I wrote you will learn. Scions are assembled with all the permanent nuts and fasteners welded in place, THEN dipped in a thick primer, then sprayed, threads and all.
I have used an OHM Meter on grounds while repairing ground locations on Toyotas, that was my job, to build and fix them. Many times it all came down to having ____ poor grounds because of the paint/primer/sealer or just the assembler not doing their job correctly ( cross thread, not torqued, not there). The paint and primer combination doesn't alloy for a good ground, could this be the reason any time you add an amp that the instructions tell you to scrape the paint away first?

And Scott17, are you the guy at the dealership that said that there was no problem with my radio? or the guy that tried to tell me that my warranty was voided because I changed my air filter, used a non-toyota oil filter?

 

Guys.
Simple.
Post some numbers.
Frog: Did you work in Japan and see SCIONS being built? If you did, then I believe what you wrote.
Otherwise, what's done here in the US isn't necessarily the same?

Scott

 

I'll just invite you all to take a tour of the New United Manufacturing Inc. Plant located in Fremont Ca. the address is 45500 Fremont Blvd., Fremont, Ca.94538

almost 13 years building Toyotas, repairing Toyotas the Toyota way.

Come see, and learn.

NUMMI is Toyota for those that do not know, you got a Tacoma? bet you it was made there using the "Toyota Production System". Got a Corolla? guess what, that one too.

Do a google on NUMMI ( New United Motor Manufacturing Inc.) and take a virtual tour if you can't make it, it is amazing.

 

Love to. No SCIONS made there though.
Didn't answer my questions, but hey, thanks for the invite.
Will you get me in?

Scott

 

now thats what I call being edjumakated.. thanks frogbox!!! hope everyone was paying attention.

 

You guys just won't quit.
Frog doesn't work in a SCION factory.
Do some numbers guys.
Get someone with credectials to backup your claims.
You've been edmakated over and over, but it does no good.
Enjoy your wires.
But really, if you want more HP and a smoother motor, put a CF engine cover on - I've read that they are better than ground wire kits