like I said before...thick

 

Um, no, that wasn't me unless you drive 16 hours to get your car serviced. I was kind of wondering if you were the guy that built some of the cars I had to fix under warranty that weren't assembled right. Jethro, you seem to have it all worked out and must be highly educated in these matters. You sure talk a mean game of crap, why don't you enlighten us all to your superior education and life experience. I can't help being thick in these matters as I probably have nowhere close to your education level. Being educationally challenged, I was only able to complete 4 years of college with a B.S. in physics, then being not-so-smart, I returned for two more years to get a B.S. in aviation technology and get my Airframe and Powerplant license from the FAA. Then being stupid as ever, I took a crummy job with Delta Airlines as an A&P overhauling poorly grounded aircraft for 11 years. Then the economy went south, (probably from a bad ground somewhere) and I took a lowly position with Toyota. It took me a whole 4 months to become an ASE Master Technician and about 6 more years to become a Toyota certified Master Diagnostic Technician. I was hoping to somehow achieve some higher technical ratings, but damn the luck, there aren't any..... What to do, what to do........????? I think once or twice in my career I even ran into some trouble with grounds, but luckily there were some smarter fellers handy to help me out with those.... I really do have the DESIRE, to achieve your level of education so I don't have to go around being so 'thick" as you put it. Could you please tell me how YOU did it??I would love to have a foolproof plan such as yours from which to work towards my goals. Thanks in advance, "thick" Scott.

 

Jethros profile:That's quite an impressive list! Could you break it down to some of us "thick" guys, exactly how many horsepower does each of your sweet power mods make???Really curious about these........

 

What is it about the above facts that Scott17 is unable to understand? The reason the factory grounds work at all is because the threads from the factory grounding bolts scrape the paint coating off the body nut threads during installation.

I have installed the diy yourself Mikochu grounding kit and it helps. Smoother idle, brighter lights, etc. I think the reason lies in the response time. The computer and alternator work more efficiently from a consistent voltage reference level. Especially the computer when converting analog voltage levels to digital 0's and 1's. In simple terms it's the difference between shooting at a moving target vs a stationary bullseye target.

Furthermore... last time I looked every part in the Scion xB is made by Toyota. The difference between made in a Toyota factory and made in a Scion factory is nil.

 

Looks like someone ran out of smart sounding responses to a simple debate and has gone to personal attacks on people.

Blow your own horn as we people that want to dicuss the pros and cons of grounding wires continue to use facts not personal opinions.

We all know what come out of that, knowledge not BS

 

1. oil cap about 2 hp
2. battery hold down 2 hp
3.K&N filter mod about 3 hp
4.Plugs 2hp
But I'm sure with all your book learning you will dispute these figures also.
While you were doing all your book learning I was learning it hands-on over 30 years worth.
What counts is common sense and that is something they can't teach in college.

It's funny how you feel the need to make fun of my mod list. That is one of the most childish things I've ever seen on this site. And probably a new low for even you. Guess it just keeps getting better and better. It's people like you that are chasing away all the newbees that are here to try to learn new stuff. I hope you are happy. I'm not worthy of your superior presence

 

Just put on a 4 gauge Grounding kit. I noticed my rpms don't fluctuate as much, but thats about it. cant really tell if my lights are brighter or not.

 

Wow, I would love to see the Scion plant. I bet it has a big giant Scion logo on top
Scion IS Toyota and vise versa. They aren't going to do anything different at a "Scion" plant. If one even exists. As far as I know Scions are built in a Toyota plant.

 

So let's just overlook this^^^ "personal attack"(?) on me and I'll disregard your whiney PM you sent and I won't even acknowlege Jethros drivvel, and let's just get down to the facts. The floor is yours, state the FACTS as you know them......

 

Which " facts" were you refering to???.............I guess i missed them.And somehow this is a sub-standard practice? Have you measured the resistance of one of these ill-conceived grounds? I have......Was your idle rough to begin with??????Mine wasn't.......How did you measure this? Do you have an osciliscope? I do.......Computers invariably use capacitors to provide a stable, spike-free power supply. Do you actually realize where the computer( and most engine sensors) is grounded? It's behind the right side kick panel with one of those inferior grounds you mentioned. I'm sure the kit you bought runs a much better wire directly from the battery to this inferior ground in the passengers kick panel. Doesn't it?????

 

As my signiture states " I refuse to have a battle of wits with an un-armed person" it is not worth lowering myself to the level of personal attacks on people.

Now, while installing my gound wire kit I scraped all paint and cleaned all ground connections, since I built Toyotas for a number of years and have seen the quality of the stock ones. I have seen an improvement. 50% of the stock grounds showed resistance, there should be very minimal to no resistance in a ground. Took time but very worth it.

There are sealers between body panels, a tar like substance that does not conduct electrcity leaving only spot welds to carry it out. The engine it self is mounted to our cars with rubber motormounts, these do not conduct electricity. We have one (1) small ground for the entire body, located on the drivers side above the headlight(look for it and you will see what I am talking about), this is supposed to ground the entire body through paint covered connections.
The other ground is to the engine/transaxel , larger but remember mounted with insulating rubber mounts.
None of these are optimal for electronics so, any ground wire you add, be it 4 awg wire or 18 awg wire will improve the stability of the ground. Remember as the car is driven the body flexes and as is does can cause the grounds that are stock to become intermittent, not good.

So add a ground wire kit if you want to improve it, or leave it stock and eventually have the connections become corroded and or contaminated and fail.

 

One other line in your sig makes more sense to me: Sometimes it is better to say nothing and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. How much??????I work on Toyotas for as living and one would think if your doom and gloom theory panned out, I might have had to fix a few of these. But I never have and don't know anyone that has. These "chicken little" stories are exactly the problem I'm talking about. Guess what?, THE SKY AIN"T FALLING!!!!!

 

Which " facts" were you refering to???.............I guess i missed them.

Yes you missed them. Sure did.


And somehow this is a sub-standard practice?

No, not sub-standard, not optimum.


Have you measured the resistance of one of these ill-conceived grounds?

Haven't measured the resistance. Measured millivolts of difference between the recommended grounding points (Mikochu) and after the wires were installed. Only a few millivolts difference. I know you've heard the term floating ground.


Was your idle rough to begin with?

Not so much rough. Fluctuating... rising/falling.



Do you have an osciliscope? I do.......

Used a scope everyday for 12 yrs... but gave it up... for software design, database development. Automotive shop work is my fun time. I'll admit it would be nice to see before and after signal comparisons on a scope. I'm sure some of what us "Grounders" are talking about is quantifiable in some way. Once it's quantified then it will be safe to say... The assertions of the "Groundless" are groundless and the "Grounders" have been proven correct!



Computers invariably use capacitors to provide a stable, spike-free power supply. Do you actually realize where the computer( and most engine sensors) is grounded? It's behind the right side kick panel with one of those inferior grounds you mentioned.

That's the point... if the hold-up capacitor(s) ground is fluctuating, even slightly, it causes the computer to hesitate, or decide less than optimally, before making a decision on what to do.



I'm sure the kit you bought runs a much better wire directly from the battery to this inferior ground in the passengers kick panel. Doesn't it?

Didn't buy it. Made it.

 

I've been planning on augmenting my xB ground system with a beefier network of switches and 00 gauge wire. I wonder if the wife will mind if I use this as the control center?

 

Care to enlighten me as to these "facts"?Care to share your calculations on this matter?Being as informed on the matter as you are, I'm quite sure you realize the only measurement valid in this discussion is resistance. I am extremely curious as to how you determined " a few millivolt difference" ( I can only presume you are measuring voltage) on an automotive electrical system that has a constantly varying voltage, dependant on battery state of charge and alternator output. My voltmeters in my car are constantly changing. And yes, I am quite familiar with the term floating ground, I just can't for the life of me figure out how you think it applies to anything we were discussing. Please elaborate...I have a few tachometers and a Toyota scan tool that shows rpm in real time. I have never noticed a fluctuating idle.If you have a scope handy, you might try opening the ECM case, follow the power circuit through the power supply and measure voltage after that. That would be the only place it would matter in this discussion. Or to make things easier you could monitor the 5v reference signal to a sensor since these come from the computer after the power supply.And did you run it to the computer ground or correct all the "inferior' stock grounds as another poster suggested? Help me out with some of these "facts" if you could...........

 

For any of you that have read this thread from the beginning you will notice that as many times as people post that they are snake oil don't work and such they ask us to prove they do work but refuse to post anything but opinion against it.

For those of you so dead set against them, post your proof, not your resumes as has already been done, prove to me they do nothing to improve the electrical system.

I have posted my findings and have the "experts" tell me BS,Toyota builds the best ( how many TSB's do they have? how many recalls). I do know what I am talking about as to the quality of them and specs for the government grounds as has been posted.

So come on guys PROVE ME WRONG, the gauntlet has been thrown, if no reply with proof and since the poll is 60% say they do, 39% say they don't. the majority must be right.

And try to keep the personal attacks to a minimum, it just shows your ignorance and immaturity.

 

And your PROOF was?.......My proof is real simple, get an ohmmeter and test the resistance of the factory grounds. Then calculate the total load of the circuit using that ground point and then open your electrical engineering 101 textbook and plug in your results and see if the resistance will factor into the circuits performance. Surely someone as adept at electrical system design as yourself should be able how to figure out such a simple exercise. Really kind of elementary......By your simple logic wouldn't welding cable strung from one end of the car to the other "improve" on something? What are your proposed plans on "improving" the positive side? Or are those wires sufficient? Your basic fallicy of composition begins with the false assumption that the stock ground system is marginal. This is a Toyota design, not Lucas electrics. All your theorys would be put to better use on a 74 MG....... Your reference to aircraft grounding practices (which you could brush up on by reading the current version of the FAAs F.A.R. manual and standard aircraft practices handbook) have little to do with automotive design. Aircraft grounds serve many more purposes than a simple ground point for a circuit. Aircraft operate in extreme conditions and grounds and bonding jumpers are used to prevent dissimilar metal corrosion and static elimination as well as dissipating lightning strikes. Has your car ever been struck by lightning? Mine has not. These are all great theorys, but in practice they are unnecessary in our application. Do you really believe that these simple theorys were lost on the Toyota engineers that designed this system? And yeah. I know how bad Toyotas suck and how poorly they are built, but J.D. Powers keeps disagreeing with my opinions. Consumer Reports won't listen either, Maybe you should give them a call and set them straight. I know you have sure opened my eyes.......

 

And were all out of time here folks. Thanks for playing the game and we have some lovely parting gifts for you. Tune in next time for "These pills I bought on E-bay really have drastically increased my gas milage!!!" So long folks!

 

You need to prove it to the believers, not just try to get us to do your work for you trying to prove it to us.

As I asked brfore, show me the proof of your side. the con side if you will

those that believe they do out number those who say they don't.

I want you to prove it using not broken logic, turning what people say around

Prove it , or leave it alone

This is a Toyota design, not Lucas electrics. All your theorys would be put to better use on a 74 MG....... as we all know the Lucas system on an MG was a positive ground, making your analogy another smoke screen.

Your basic fallicy of composition begins with the false assumption that the stock ground system is marginal.... Not a false assumption, I do not assume, it makes an ___ out of u and me. In the world of making money, you produce at the cheapest (method or materials) and sell for as much as you can get ( what the market will pay).
This is in order to make a profit, basic economics.So using this, yes it is my belief ( as my experience has shown working for Toyota) they use just enough to get by, the minimum.

Now , again show me your proof, of course nothing personal, but you do get paid by the dealership not to.

And my proof you ask, 61% of people who actually installed and voted say yes, it does improve, 38% say no. This is a democracy still, right?and it started as a poll.

 

You huys are funny. The reason larger wire is superior is because electricity actually travels on the suface of a wire, not through it. That is why stranded wire can carry more current (has less resistance) than a solid wire. Oh, yeah and some high voltage power lines are hollow for that some reason, more surface area. Do they make a hollow wire ground kit for the 06's lol. To each his own I guess.