Alignment problems with the xA xB?
06-02-2005, 11:38 PM
#1
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Alignment problems with the xA xB?
I took my xA to the alignment shop today and they told me that the rear end isn't aligned.
They thought they might be able to fix it by moving the tires front to rear, but suprising, it made things worse.
Because there's no adjustability of any parts in the rear, they mentioned they they would have to pull the chassis in one way or another. Something they do on occation.
Before anybody jumps on the accuracy of the shop, I have used the place for some time, and have setup up my race track alignment setup on my 300Z TT for years there. They are very good and don't just employ college guys or cheap labor.
The rear misalignment is what's got me. Nothings happened to the rear, and the cars only got ~5k miles.
I've heard that from the factory, that some of the Scion's alignments weren't perfect. Can some folks share they're stories? I'm curious to find out exactly what problems people have had with their new cars from Scion.
Thanks!
They thought they might be able to fix it by moving the tires front to rear, but suprising, it made things worse.
Because there's no adjustability of any parts in the rear, they mentioned they they would have to pull the chassis in one way or another. Something they do on occation.
Before anybody jumps on the accuracy of the shop, I have used the place for some time, and have setup up my race track alignment setup on my 300Z TT for years there. They are very good and don't just employ college guys or cheap labor.
The rear misalignment is what's got me. Nothings happened to the rear, and the cars only got ~5k miles.
I've heard that from the factory, that some of the Scion's alignments weren't perfect. Can some folks share they're stories? I'm curious to find out exactly what problems people have had with their new cars from Scion.
Thanks!
06-03-2005, 12:07 AM
#2
From the Scion xA/xB product intro brochure (probably not related your question, but it's the only thing I was able to find... 
).
Let us know what you find, eh?
).Code:
E. Rear Toe Control
1. increased stability in transitional maneuvers
2. reduces self-steering of rear axle beam
a. Typically on a beam axle, lateral forces during cornering
compress the forward bushings longitudinally, pivoting
about a point ahead of the rear axle centerline; this causes
toe out which promotes oversteer
b. The toe-correcting forward bushing is deflected sideways
and rearward in direct proportion to side load, moving
towards toe-in and reducing oversteer
c. The toe-control bushings have an integral deflector
which causes lateral suspension forces to be translated into
lateral motion of the complete axle assembly
3. Reduced road noise
a. Compound rubber bushings are used in the suspension
1) hardest in the radial axis for sharp handling
2) axially soft to reduce transmission of low-frequency road noise
to the cabin.
06-03-2005, 12:29 AM
#3
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Tomas, you hit the nail on the head! The XA and XB (as well as some others) have toe-correcting bushings in the rear and should be aligned with a centerline alignment and not a thrust line alignment. Care should be taken when driving onto the lift to not turn sharply onto the lift and drive back and forth a few times straight to center the rear ssuspension. Total toe should be correct regardless and toe for each rear wheel is rather meaningless when measured this way. Run-of -the-mill alignment shops rarely have acess to all this kind of information about specific cars. I have seen body shops replace the rear beam on cars for this reason! 
If you're going to work on Toyotas, you need to know Toyotas.
If you're going to work on Toyotas, you need to know Toyotas.
06-03-2005, 12:31 AM
#4
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Have you taken it to the dealer? I wonder if this is something they can address as the car should still be under warranty...
On a related note: I took my xb for a test drive upon delivery and the front alignment was all jacked up (with the steering wheel straight, the car veered off to one side pretty badly)...the dealer fixed it, no problems since.
On a related note: I took my xb for a test drive upon delivery and the front alignment was all jacked up (with the steering wheel straight, the car veered off to one side pretty badly)...the dealer fixed it, no problems since.
06-03-2005, 01:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Scott17
Tomas, you hit the nail on the head! The XA and XB (as well as some others) have toe-correcting bushings in the rear and should be aligned with a centerline alignment and not a thrust line alignment. Care should be taken when driving onto the lift to not turn sharply onto the lift and drive back and forth a few times straight to center the rear ssuspension. Total toe should be correct regardless and toe for each rear wheel is rather meaningless when measured this way. Run-of -the-mill alignment shops rarely have acess to all this kind of information about specific cars. I have seen body shops replace the rear beam on cars for this reason! If you're going to work on Toyotas, you need to know Toyotas.
If you're going to work on Toyotas, you need to know Toyotas.
06-03-2005, 02:14 AM
#8
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Toe in the rear is adjustable. (or should be, I haven't checked)
What he needed to adjust was more than that.
"Toe adjusting bushing"?
That's sounds more like an excuse for cheap soft bushings.
All stock bushings have give, and will give some when a car is in motion. Scion didn't recreate the wheel here, they just gave it a name. When a car is in motion, the suspension assembly will go into compression, if you will, (not talking about shocks). If you have too much play in your joints, or if you bushings are too loose, your suspension will go too far out of it's static position.
Scion just designed their suspension so that the alignment is perfect when it's out of static, which is basically what every other car manufacture does. Scion just gave it a name.
Thanks, guys, but these guys that I deal with know about this kind of thing. They found overly loose bushings and suspesion in the front suspension of my Z a few years ago, that was caused by a pot hole. Static the alignment was fine, but not when in motion.
This is why I took it to them, because they know their stuff, as opposed to the average tire installer.
Maybe I'll take it to the dealership then, and cry foul.
Anybody have any stories of their own cars being out of wack from the dealer? Somebody told me that it was common for factory Scion cars at one point...
What he needed to adjust was more than that.
"Toe adjusting bushing"?
That's sounds more like an excuse for cheap soft bushings.
All stock bushings have give, and will give some when a car is in motion. Scion didn't recreate the wheel here, they just gave it a name. When a car is in motion, the suspension assembly will go into compression, if you will, (not talking about shocks). If you have too much play in your joints, or if you bushings are too loose, your suspension will go too far out of it's static position.
Scion just designed their suspension so that the alignment is perfect when it's out of static, which is basically what every other car manufacture does. Scion just gave it a name.
Thanks, guys, but these guys that I deal with know about this kind of thing. They found overly loose bushings and suspesion in the front suspension of my Z a few years ago, that was caused by a pot hole. Static the alignment was fine, but not when in motion.
This is why I took it to them, because they know their stuff, as opposed to the average tire installer.
Maybe I'll take it to the dealership then, and cry foul.
Anybody have any stories of their own cars being out of wack from the dealer? Somebody told me that it was common for factory Scion cars at one point...
06-03-2005, 03:04 AM
#9
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When I took my box to the dealer for its first oil change (used free one at 1500 miles), I had them check the alignment. On the interstate the rear felt tight and the front wanted to dart around at 70+ mph. Turns out the alignment was off on the right rear. Now it feels more even. I got my box with only 3 miles on it, and have never hit a pothole or anything that would through it out of alignment. Besides, it felt like that from the day I picked it up.
06-03-2005, 02:19 PM
#10
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Originally Posted by LeeD
Toe in the rear is adjustable. (or should be, I haven't checked)
What he needed to adjust was more than that.
"Toe adjusting bushing"?
That's sounds more like an excuse for cheap soft bushings.
All stock bushings have give, and will give some when a car is in motion. Scion didn't recreate the wheel here, they just gave it a name. When a car is in motion, the suspension assembly will go into compression, if you will, (not talking about shocks). If you have too much play in your joints, or if you bushings are too loose, your suspension will go too far out of it's static position.
Scion just designed their suspension so that the alignment is perfect when it's out of static, which is basically what every other car manufacture does. Scion just gave it a name.
Thanks, guys, but these guys that I deal with know about this kind of thing. They found overly loose bushings and suspesion in the front suspension of my Z a few years ago, that was caused by a pot hole. Static the alignment was fine, but not when in motion.
This is why I took it to them, because they know their stuff, as opposed to the average tire installer.
Maybe I'll take it to the dealership then, and cry foul.
Anybody have any stories of their own cars being out of wack from the dealer? Somebody told me that it was common for factory Scion cars at one point...
What he needed to adjust was more than that.
"Toe adjusting bushing"?
That's sounds more like an excuse for cheap soft bushings.
All stock bushings have give, and will give some when a car is in motion. Scion didn't recreate the wheel here, they just gave it a name. When a car is in motion, the suspension assembly will go into compression, if you will, (not talking about shocks). If you have too much play in your joints, or if you bushings are too loose, your suspension will go too far out of it's static position.
Scion just designed their suspension so that the alignment is perfect when it's out of static, which is basically what every other car manufacture does. Scion just gave it a name.
Thanks, guys, but these guys that I deal with know about this kind of thing. They found overly loose bushings and suspesion in the front suspension of my Z a few years ago, that was caused by a pot hole. Static the alignment was fine, but not when in motion.
This is why I took it to them, because they know their stuff, as opposed to the average tire installer.
Maybe I'll take it to the dealership then, and cry foul.
Anybody have any stories of their own cars being out of wack from the dealer? Somebody told me that it was common for factory Scion cars at one point...
If "they knew their stuff" this post wouldn't exist. The repair manual for the Xb will tell you how to align it properly and I don't imagine your alignment shop has this manual. That's the difference. The rear suspension of the Xb is a marvel of simplicity and good engineering and when you understand how it works it will make much more sense. PM me your E-mail and I will send you some information on this suspension.
06-03-2005, 08:38 PM
#12
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It looks like the only thing you can do is maybe loosen the joint at the bushing and reseat it, to help center rear end. Nothing else to adjust back there besides shimming where the hub mounts to the beam.
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