never truer words spoken..... also how about "speed is expensive, how fast can you afford to spend?"

but seriously, some people take pleasure in moddifying their cars, its not just about being fast, for them its about the work and effort put into it, not only the end result.

 

sorry, i should elaborate. I mention the VVT-i only becuase peopole always mention the i-VTEC but never the VVT-i. Yes i know they operate on a different scale, but the fact that we have a form of variable valve timing that has been race proven is awsome and i hope people havent forgotten about that or dont pay attention to it because it is not the famous VTEC.

also, about the 4th gear wheel spin, yes i managed it on my Tc. I am not talking on a massive scale but it was noticeable and made me feel "cool" . granted i have the shyt poor grip of bridgestones and the light weight of 17" rims. Torque is awsome

 

I'd like to see that 4th gear spin/chirp, its not that i don't believe you i would just like to see someone post a video of a tC doing it. Always "sounds/looks cool". haha. Well, i personally like how Vtec is designed and works. VVT-I is a great system, but its so much more complicated than what it needs to be, as far as how its set up and such. Thats just my opinion though. Thanks for explaining, at first i thought you just made some random, off the wall comment with no point attached.

Cya

 

If you want a sports car then you won't be looking at front wheel drive coupes.

The MR is a sports car.

The RX-8 is a sports car.

Even the Miata is more of a sports car than either of these.

Sports cars are RWD or AWD and built for handling and performance from the ground up.

Neither the Civic Si or the tC is a sports car in any way.

 

Well, the Civic Si is as sporty as a FWD coupe can be.

 

A sports car can't be defined strickly by what drivetrain it has. You have to look at all elements when claiming you own a sports car. Civic Si is a sports car, sorry you can't view it as one. FWD can do wonders just as rwd and awd cars. By your thinking, a civic or integra type r (japan) would not be a sports car. Um, okay. There are tons of FWD cars that are sports cars, just like rwd and awd.

As my examples above, the type-r class for honda is built for performance, and handling and more. I don't feel i really need to go into details with my statements because if you don't already know a fwd car can be a sports car, then you will never accept it.

You have your opinions, and i respect that. But don't be close minded and believe what you think is the only right way.

Cya

 

Well, personally I feel that the civic Si is a sports compact

sports compact = economy car made to be like a sports car, but still economical.

The civic si was built upon a economy car platform, the civic, and...sure it may have a lot of performance oriented things, but it was not designed from the bottom up entirely for performance.

 

I can agree with that being that its the performance version of the base civic. But, to say a FWD car cannot be a sports car is something i find to be a ignorant comment. No offense to biznox because obviously everyone has different views on what a sports car is.

Cya

 

I see both ends of the argument, but the bottom line is this: FWD is simply not the ideal drivetrain for a performance car. Having the drive wheels in front means that during acceleration, weight is going to transfer to the back of the car. This means the drive wheels are going to get less traction then they would in the rear, or with AWD. The drive wheels are also the steering wheels, which translates to easier loss of traction in corners, especially when the front end is loaded from braking. And this translates into understeer which is harder to recover from then oversteer; in regard to how far "out" of the turn you have to go to recover.

This is NOT to say that FWD cars cannot perform well. There are plenty of FWD cars out there putting over a G on the skidpad and running 10-sec quarter miles. It's just not as ideal for performance as AWD or RWD. Thereotically speaking (since there is no such thing in real life), if you had a basic car chassis that you could switch drivetrains and keep the same weight, suspension geometry, and power to the wheels, etc. Given that all the variables are the same, the RWD and AWD versions of the car would have better acceleration and slightly better handling.

This is the reason why you see 400+hp RWD cars like the Corvette, Viper, and 911, but you don't see any similar FF car.

So do I think FWD cars can be sports cars? I think you can have sporty FWD cars. But I think to be a true sports car, a car should be built for performance from the ground up.

 

Wow, talking about sports cars and tC, Civic Integra dont go in the same conversation. There are VERY FEW cars marketed as sports cars.

Do a quick search of the word sports cars on google. This is what you get

http://www.google.com/search?sourcei...&q=sports+cars

I dont see anything close to a civic, tC, integra or any econobox on there.

I love my tC and I will make it as sport"y" as possible, but to say a tC or Civic Si is a sports car isnt so.

 

Whoever said the tC is a sports car, needs to understand its not. Its a coupe, nothing more. You shouldn't have to google "sports cars" to know what it takes to make a sports car, well, a sports car. Also, the type-r class is not just a civic or just a integra. Its a totally different ball game. Please understand that.

As for the 400whp rwd/awd statements. While i can see your points, there are 400whp+ fwd cars out there. Traction is a major concern when it comes to sports cars, but power isn't the only thing a sports car needs. You can have 240whp and it be a sports car. Alot more comes into play other than whp numbers, as we all know.

Everyone keeps saying, "To be a sports car, it needs to be performance built from the ground up." No one has disagreed with these statements, the only thing i disagree with some with is the fact a fwd car can be build ground up for performance. While the drivetrain isn't completely ideal for whp numbers, its not completely useless.

Cya

 

I guess it is open to opinion. I just feel that once you classify FWD economy cars as sports cars, then the term "sports car" pretty much loses it's meaning because you are applying it to at least 50% of the cars on the road. If the Si is a sports car, then why isn't a base model Civic a sports car? Would a base model Civic be a "sports car" then if you throw a CAI and a wing and some lowering springs on it?

IMO there needs to be something that clearly defines what a sports car is. Most people I know take it to mean a smaller car, usually 2 doors with a low center of gravity that is designed first and foremost for performance even if that means making compromises in practicality. Most people I know don't consider FWD cars true sports cars, because that is a compromise made for economy and traction and offers only disadvantages for performance.

I'm not trying to put those cars down, I just think they need to be under a different category. Sport coupe or Sport compact, or what have you. They are not true, dedicated performance cars.

I seriously doubt that even Honda would call or consider the Civic SI a sports car. I'd be amazed if you could find it refered to as such in any of their literature. There is a good reason for that.

The S2000 is a sports car. The Civic Si and tC are not sports cars. Opinion, perhaps, but I think you will find alot more people who know something about cars think along those lines. The only people who want to call them sports cars are the people who own them and just don't know any better (IMHO)

If the Si is a sports car, then so is my xB.

 

Well first, towards the end are you implying i don't know something about cars? You don't know me.

Also, if you actually re-read my post you quoted you will notice i was agreeing with silverrsx about his opinion on the Si. I could see his points and i agree'd. So, you picked the wrong post of mine to quote if you wanted to call me out on anything.

Also, base line civics to me are coupes, not sport compacts. The Si is a sport compact, in my opinion because it was built pretty much from the ground up for a performance. Not straight up performance, but its there.

Also, everyone keeps using the drivetrain as an excuse. Look past drivetrains, look at an entire car. If a car is built for performance, and its FWD your only arguement is the fact its FWD. My arguement is FWD can be a sports car.

Two examples i made of this was the type-r's from honda, built for pure affordable performance. As for your xb comment, not to say the xb is not a sports car at all means. But, i believe it has sport compact characteristics. Its great on the track, i've beat a lot of cars out of my class in autocross, some considered performance cars. Why? Because i can out handle them in the corners. Of course, this is with mods. But, theres a web site i can give you with a guy that does autocross, hes an instructor. He has videos of him in his box out cornering vettes and porches, staying firm. Some of the videos were took on stock suspension. So it has qualities, but of course, its not a true sports compact.

Cya

 

"But, theres a web site i can give you with a guy that does autocross, hes an instructor. He has videos of him in his box out cornering vettes and porches, staying firm. Some of the videos were took on stock suspension"

LINK PLEASE?

 

Yeah... an xB with a skidpad performance of less than .8G is outhandling cars that are putting down 1G or more. Not saying the skidpad is everything, but with comparable drivers the vette, porche, etc would not even see the xb in thier rear view mirror after 2 corners.

I am not attacking your credibility killer, but that of the source you mentioned. I would have to see hard numbers and times to even begin to consider this reliable.

 

http://dpcars.aprsworld.com

Theres the link, just click on his scion/xb section and throughout the pages of his scion section there is a total of three-five videos. forget exactly how many he has.

This link will prove my credibility, and as i said before about the link, most of the videos are done before he modified his suspension.

Before you ask: All drivers in the vids are professional instructors, no amatures.

Cya

 

Well, I see one video of a guy barely pushing a vette and still smoking the xb.. .that is all I see. The vette driver looks as if he is on his way to the store. And I didnt read anywhere in that article about the guy saying he out-cornered anything. Am I missing something here?

 

Okay, "out-cornering" was a wrong use of words on my part. What i meant was that the xb was cornering better than ____ car. Sorry, that was my fault for misleading use of words.
Well since you looked at the vette video, you will notice that the vette had trouble getting around one of the corners where as the box was right there, the box could have passed if the vette wasn't right there in front. The excuse of the vette barely pushing is a understatement. A vette has a lot of power to the rear wheels, the guy driving the vette can't push the car fully inside a turn because the rear tires will break loose and it will end up having the rear end fish tail. Which if i remember correctly, the vette almost did around that specific corner. I could be wrong, but i think he did if i remember correctly. So, with that said, yes, the xb can take sharp turns like that one better than the vette, as shown in the video. He wasn't "walking" the vette by any means.

Watch more of the videos, don't try to make up excuses for what you are seeing. I provided information and a website to back up my knowledge, experience and information i've given. It appears all you are trying to do is disprove my knowledge by your comments on the vette. And if you read on one of the pages, i believe the video of a few porches you will note that the guy says, "i harassed _____ car today" Theres also a video, which i believe is the porche one where he comes in to make a pit stop for a little while and a guy stops him and tells him how firm and planted the box is compared to most of the other cars on the track. I believe he specifically said a certain car but i'm not sure. Haven't been on his website for a while.

Just because you have more whp doesn't mean you can corner better than a less powerful car. Lots of things go into it, drivetrain, driver, weight, suspension, tires so on so forth. a RWD with 300+ whp, 3,000lbs+ is not going handle as well because of the weight they are putting down on the tires, especially with lsd you are going to have fishtailing and tire break if you try to go too fast.

Watch the videos, more than one and read a little more of what he has down. Come back to me with disagreement and debate if you want, but don't bring the "he was walking ____ car" into it. These are professional instructors, in none of the videos is a car walking through like its sunday driving. Some may not be pushed as hard due to cars in front of them, but they are all being pushed fairly hard.

Cya

 

While there are 400whp+ cars out there, they almost certainly modified. No manufacturer is going to make a car like that, because if you're shooting for those kinds of numbers, you're almost certainly building a performance car (that or a massively heavy truck or something). If you'll read my post again, you'll see that I'm not arguing that FWD is not ideal for high horsepower in general, but that it's not ideal for overall performance. In actuality as far as raw whp numbers are concerned, FWD *is* ideal as it has the least amount of drivetrain loss. But performance is going to suffer because FWD cars are built for higher traction in inclement weather and to save production costs, not to post big numbers on a track. That's why Porsche and Ferrari don't make any FF cars.

FWD sport coupes are not built from the ground up for performance. They are often existing coupe platforms with a slightly more powerful engines and maybe improved suspensions. What I'm saying is no car manufacturer is going to make a FWD car built from the ground up for performance because being built that way already implies that the car would be better with a different drivetrain.

 

I never said anything about manufactures putting out 400whp+ in FWD, i just said its done with fwd cars. I.E modified.

I pretty much agree with you on everything except the sports car opinion. I'll give you two cars right now that are sports cars FWD.

Honda integra type r
Honda Civic type r

Geared near ideal perfection, whp numbers from factory are very respectable with overbuilt trannys. Performance-tuned suspension and tires straight from factory track ready. Light weight, A/C is optional and they also cut weight with other things as well. There are lots of other things that i could talk about but you get the point. These two cars are sports cars, period. Regardless of drivetrain. You can not base sports cars souly on whp numbers, you have to look at everything as i've said.

Out of everyone disagreeing with me, the only two things debated is hp numbers and drivetrain. Well, unless you count most FWD sport compacts/sports cars are generally based on econo cars. Which, i'm not disagreeing with, its true. However, that does not mean the performance-model of the ____ car can't be called a sports car.
So long as:
Built for performance, track tested and tune for track with street products. Fairly fast, handling must be superb. Generally two door, but cars like the STi is a huge exception. Speaking of STi.

Heres a good example of a car thats a sports car that has a trim level below it, thats not a sports car:
wrx and wrx STi. Obviously the STi is a sports car, and anyone that says otherwise, well, . The regular wrx impreza is not a sports car by any means. Its sort of a sports compact although its a four door. It has some characteristics of a sports car, but its not really geared at all for performance where as the STi is built for one reason and one reason only, performing.

Thank you, trim level/base model discussion is out. Drivetrain debate is out, its not a vaild debate because everyone agrees performance/performing is the key, look past drivetrains and look at how its built. WHP numbers is out, because we all know that there are sports cars with semi low numbers. Elise anyone? So, what does that leave the debate at? Why can't there be FWD sports cars?

(edit: don't get offended anyone by most posts, i'm keeping this friendly.)

Cya