tC vs new Civic SI?
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read the reviews of honda's new civic si.......one driver was quoted as saying......"if the revs aren't kept above 5,000, it feels like you are driving in quick sand. personally, i wouldn't want a car that made 139 lb-feet of tourqe at 4 million rpms.......not enough grunt for daily driving and it takes way too much work to get the 198 hp out of the buzzsaw engine. just my opinion.......read the review....it was either on caranddriver.com or roadandtrack.com. not that the si doesn't have its virtues.....it obviously does....but what about that hideous dashboard!! looks like some guy with a lazy eye designed it. overall, the two cars are worlds apart......and in my world the tc is better.
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Originally Posted by atodak
Also, two seater only for a sports car definition isn't accurate. Four door sports cars have been in the making for a few years now. Evo's and sti's the most popular. Both can beat tons, and tons of two door sports cars easily. You take any two wheel drivetrain and pair it with an awd car, same whp numbers and who do you think is going to win? If you say two wheel drivetrain its a big no.
silverstreak: Virtually all honda motors are geared and built for high revs, thats what honda is famous for. K20 series is no exception. The beauty of high reving is you can take it very easy if you wanted to, or push it extremely hard. Needless to say the motors are built to revved hard, well, K20 and a few other of honda motors are at least. Also, i've personally test driven a 06' Si and its not that sluggish at all. It reminds me a lot of the acura type-r with its handling. The gearing ratio is close enough to where you do get in the high revs fast enough, to not worry about no low end. Gearing does wonders. My old gs-r i built redlined a little over 8k with extremely close custom gears. While it wasn't practical for daily use, it was fast regardless of low end. 231whp @ 7,200rpm was my last dyno run. (n/a)
Cya
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Originally Posted by atodak
Is an insurance company gonna label the Si a sports car?
BTW: Why do you bring up the Si? I've already agreed that its more of a sport compact than a sports car.
Cya
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Originally Posted by killerxromances
I never said anything about manufactures putting out 400whp+ in FWD, i just said its done with fwd cars. I.E modified.
I pretty much agree with you on everything except the sports car opinion. I'll give you two cars right now that are sports cars FWD.
Honda integra type r
Honda Civic type r
Geared near ideal perfection, whp numbers from factory are very respectable with overbuilt trannys. Performance-tuned suspension and tires straight from factory track ready. Light weight, A/C is optional and they also cut weight with other things as well. There are lots of other things that i could talk about but you get the point. These two cars are sports cars, period. Regardless of drivetrain. You can not base sports cars souly on whp numbers, you have to look at everything as i've said.
Out of everyone disagreeing with me, the only two things debated is hp numbers and drivetrain. Well, unless you count most FWD sport compacts/sports cars are generally based on econo cars. Which, i'm not disagreeing with, its true. However, that does not mean the performance-model of the ____ car can't be called a sports car.
So long as:
Built for performance, track tested and tune for track with street products. Fairly fast, handling must be superb. Generally two door, but cars like the STi is a huge exception. Speaking of STi.
Heres a good example of a car thats a sports car that has a trim level below it, thats not a sports car:
wrx and wrx STi. Obviously the STi is a sports car, and anyone that says otherwise, well,
. The regular wrx impreza is not a sports car by any means. Its sort of a sports compact although its a four door. It has some characteristics of a sports car, but its not really geared at all for performance where as the STi is built for one reason and one reason only, performing.
Thank you, trim level/base model discussion is out. Drivetrain debate is out, its not a vaild debate because everyone agrees performance/performing is the key, look past drivetrains and look at how its built. WHP numbers is out, because we all know that there are sports cars with semi low numbers. Elise anyone? So, what does that leave the debate at? Why can't there be FWD sports cars?
(edit: don't get offended anyone by most posts, i'm keeping this friendly.)
Cya
I pretty much agree with you on everything except the sports car opinion. I'll give you two cars right now that are sports cars FWD.
Honda integra type r
Honda Civic type r
Geared near ideal perfection, whp numbers from factory are very respectable with overbuilt trannys. Performance-tuned suspension and tires straight from factory track ready. Light weight, A/C is optional and they also cut weight with other things as well. There are lots of other things that i could talk about but you get the point. These two cars are sports cars, period. Regardless of drivetrain. You can not base sports cars souly on whp numbers, you have to look at everything as i've said.
Out of everyone disagreeing with me, the only two things debated is hp numbers and drivetrain. Well, unless you count most FWD sport compacts/sports cars are generally based on econo cars. Which, i'm not disagreeing with, its true. However, that does not mean the performance-model of the ____ car can't be called a sports car.
So long as:
Built for performance, track tested and tune for track with street products. Fairly fast, handling must be superb. Generally two door, but cars like the STi is a huge exception. Speaking of STi.
Heres a good example of a car thats a sports car that has a trim level below it, thats not a sports car:
wrx and wrx STi. Obviously the STi is a sports car, and anyone that says otherwise, well,
. The regular wrx impreza is not a sports car by any means. Its sort of a sports compact although its a four door. It has some characteristics of a sports car, but its not really geared at all for performance where as the STi is built for one reason and one reason only, performing.Thank you, trim level/base model discussion is out. Drivetrain debate is out, its not a vaild debate because everyone agrees performance/performing is the key, look past drivetrains and look at how its built. WHP numbers is out, because we all know that there are sports cars with semi low numbers. Elise anyone? So, what does that leave the debate at? Why can't there be FWD sports cars?
(edit: don't get offended anyone by most posts, i'm keeping this friendly.)
Cya
STi's and Evos aren't either. They are rally cars that are sold to the general public as a sport sedan much like an BMW 5-series, Audi S4, Subaru WRX, Volvo S60R, or hell even Dodge Charger SRT-8. As a byproduct of being rally-bred cars, they do also put up astonishingly good numbers on a track. Numbers so good they do actually put many sports cars to shame. That said, they are built from the ground up for performance, at least in the sense that the chassis is originally designed for rally competition. The lower-trim Lancer and Impreza chassis are sold as normal cars but they are designed completely to conform with and excel in Group N and higher rally regulations. Thus, higher performance versions of the car with the same chassis can be built. But the chassis and frame and every aspect of the low-end design was built with the intention of also serving as a rallysport dominator.
I myself drive an 05 WRX, but I don't claim that it's a sports car. Despite the fact that I can hand a Miata it's ___ in almost any motorsport, short of extremely close-design autocross (even there I would be competitive).
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Originally Posted by Skunk
Originally Posted by killerxromances
I never said anything about manufactures putting out 400whp+ in FWD, i just said its done with fwd cars. I.E modified.
I pretty much agree with you on everything except the sports car opinion. I'll give you two cars right now that are sports cars FWD.
Honda integra type r
Honda Civic type r
Geared near ideal perfection, whp numbers from factory are very respectable with overbuilt trannys. Performance-tuned suspension and tires straight from factory track ready. Light weight, A/C is optional and they also cut weight with other things as well. There are lots of other things that i could talk about but you get the point. These two cars are sports cars, period. Regardless of drivetrain. You can not base sports cars souly on whp numbers, you have to look at everything as i've said.
Out of everyone disagreeing with me, the only two things debated is hp numbers and drivetrain. Well, unless you count most FWD sport compacts/sports cars are generally based on econo cars. Which, i'm not disagreeing with, its true. However, that does not mean the performance-model of the ____ car can't be called a sports car.
So long as:
Built for performance, track tested and tune for track with street products. Fairly fast, handling must be superb. Generally two door, but cars like the STi is a huge exception. Speaking of STi.
Heres a good example of a car thats a sports car that has a trim level below it, thats not a sports car:
wrx and wrx STi. Obviously the STi is a sports car, and anyone that says otherwise, well, . The regular wrx impreza is not a sports car by any means. Its sort of a sports compact although its a four door. It has some characteristics of a sports car, but its not really geared at all for performance where as the STi is built for one reason and one reason only, performing.
Thank you, trim level/base model discussion is out. Drivetrain debate is out, its not a vaild debate because everyone agrees performance/performing is the key, look past drivetrains and look at how its built. WHP numbers is out, because we all know that there are sports cars with semi low numbers. Elise anyone? So, what does that leave the debate at? Why can't there be FWD sports cars?
(edit: don't get offended anyone by most posts, i'm keeping this friendly.)
Cya
I pretty much agree with you on everything except the sports car opinion. I'll give you two cars right now that are sports cars FWD.
Honda integra type r
Honda Civic type r
Geared near ideal perfection, whp numbers from factory are very respectable with overbuilt trannys. Performance-tuned suspension and tires straight from factory track ready. Light weight, A/C is optional and they also cut weight with other things as well. There are lots of other things that i could talk about but you get the point. These two cars are sports cars, period. Regardless of drivetrain. You can not base sports cars souly on whp numbers, you have to look at everything as i've said.
Out of everyone disagreeing with me, the only two things debated is hp numbers and drivetrain. Well, unless you count most FWD sport compacts/sports cars are generally based on econo cars. Which, i'm not disagreeing with, its true. However, that does not mean the performance-model of the ____ car can't be called a sports car.
So long as:
Built for performance, track tested and tune for track with street products. Fairly fast, handling must be superb. Generally two door, but cars like the STi is a huge exception. Speaking of STi.
Heres a good example of a car thats a sports car that has a trim level below it, thats not a sports car:
wrx and wrx STi. Obviously the STi is a sports car, and anyone that says otherwise, well,
. The regular wrx impreza is not a sports car by any means. Its sort of a sports compact although its a four door. It has some characteristics of a sports car, but its not really geared at all for performance where as the STi is built for one reason and one reason only, performing.Thank you, trim level/base model discussion is out. Drivetrain debate is out, its not a vaild debate because everyone agrees performance/performing is the key, look past drivetrains and look at how its built. WHP numbers is out, because we all know that there are sports cars with semi low numbers. Elise anyone? So, what does that leave the debate at? Why can't there be FWD sports cars?
(edit: don't get offended anyone by most posts, i'm keeping this friendly.)
Cya
STi's and Evos aren't either. They are rally cars that are sold to the general public as a sport sedan much like an Audi S4, Subaru WRX, Volvo S60R, or hell even Dodge Charger SRT-8. As a byproduct of being rally-bred cars, they do also put up astonishingly good numbers on a track. Numbers so good they do actually put many sports cars to shame. That said, they are built from the ground up for performance, at least in the sense that the chassis is originally designed for rally competition. The lower-trim Lancer and Impreza chassis are sold as normal cars but they are designed completely to conform with and excel in Group N and higher rally regulations. Thus, higher performance versions of the car with the same chassis can be built. But the chassis and frame and every aspect of the low-end design was built with the intention of also serving as a rallysport dominator.
I myself drive an 05 WRX, but I don't claim that it's a sports car. Despite the fact that I can hand a Miata it's butt in almost any motorsport, short of extremely close-design autocross.
Yes, the STi is a rally based car. However, it is a sports car wether its a sedan or not. Most insurance companies even list the STi under a sports car catigory. Basically, everything you said amounts to opinion because theres not much fact in your words.
Sports car, true meaning:
Built to perform, performance car.
Just because a car is built based off a rally sport, doesn't exclude the fact its a sports car. Guess what? Rally is a sport and very much performance-geared.
Regular wrx is not a sports car as i said, audi S4 is not a sports car, your examples there including the volvo is all correct.
Cya
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Originally Posted by killerxromances
type r class for honda is sports car, has everything any other sports car has except its FWD. FWD doesn't kill the sport car aggression.
Yes, the STi is a rally based car. However, it is a sports car wether its a sedan or not. Most insurance companies even list the STi under a sports car catigory. Basically, everything you said amounts to opinion because theres not much fact in your words.
Sports car, true meaning:
Built to perform, performance car.
Just because a car is built based off a rally sport, doesn't exclude the fact its a sports car. Guess what? Rally is a sport and very much performance-geared.
Regular wrx is not a sports car as i said, audi S4 is not a sports car, your examples there including the volvo is all correct.
Cya
Yes, the STi is a rally based car. However, it is a sports car wether its a sedan or not. Most insurance companies even list the STi under a sports car catigory. Basically, everything you said amounts to opinion because theres not much fact in your words.
Sports car, true meaning:
Built to perform, performance car.
Just because a car is built based off a rally sport, doesn't exclude the fact its a sports car. Guess what? Rally is a sport and very much performance-geared.
Regular wrx is not a sports car as i said, audi S4 is not a sports car, your examples there including the volvo is all correct.
Cya
What you're saying isn't based on fact either so let's not mudsling. Keep it friendly.
And the STi is a sport sedan, not a sports car. Why do you say the STi is a sports car and the S4 isn't?
The STi is a WRX with more power (same block), Brembo brakes, different differential and tranny, harder suspension settings, and sway and strut bars. Both are sport sedans and neither is a sports car, despite both cars being superior performance-wise to a number of them.
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We all agree on one thing: Sports car = built for performance/handling
FWD is detrimental to performance and handling compared to RWD and AWD, it's a known and accepted fact amongst people with an understanding of the physics involved.
Therefore a car with FWD is not designed for performance/handling first and foremost and while it may be fun to drive and quick, it is not designed for racing or with performance as the priority and thereby is NOT a true sports car IMO.
You have to draw the line SOMEWHERE guys. If a Civic Si and a tC are sports cars then "sports car" has no meaning at all anymore.
FWD is detrimental to performance and handling compared to RWD and AWD, it's a known and accepted fact amongst people with an understanding of the physics involved.
Therefore a car with FWD is not designed for performance/handling first and foremost and while it may be fun to drive and quick, it is not designed for racing or with performance as the priority and thereby is NOT a true sports car IMO.
You have to draw the line SOMEWHERE guys. If a Civic Si and a tC are sports cars then "sports car" has no meaning at all anymore.
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Originally Posted by Skunk
Originally Posted by killerxromances
type r class for honda is sports car, has everything any other sports car has except its FWD. FWD doesn't kill the sport car aggression.
Yes, the STi is a rally based car. However, it is a sports car wether its a sedan or not. Most insurance companies even list the STi under a sports car catigory. Basically, everything you said amounts to opinion because theres not much fact in your words.
Sports car, true meaning:
Built to perform, performance car.
Just because a car is built based off a rally sport, doesn't exclude the fact its a sports car. Guess what? Rally is a sport and very much performance-geared.
Regular wrx is not a sports car as i said, audi S4 is not a sports car, your examples there including the volvo is all correct.
Cya
Yes, the STi is a rally based car. However, it is a sports car wether its a sedan or not. Most insurance companies even list the STi under a sports car catigory. Basically, everything you said amounts to opinion because theres not much fact in your words.
Sports car, true meaning:
Built to perform, performance car.
Just because a car is built based off a rally sport, doesn't exclude the fact its a sports car. Guess what? Rally is a sport and very much performance-geared.
Regular wrx is not a sports car as i said, audi S4 is not a sports car, your examples there including the volvo is all correct.
Cya
What you're saying isn't based on fact either so let's not mudsling. Keep it friendly.
And the STi is a sport sedan, not a sports car. Why do you say the STi is a sports car and the S4 isn't?
The STi is a WRX with more power (same block), Brembo brakes, different differential and tranny, harder suspension settings, and sway and strut bars. Both are sport sedans and neither is a sports car, despite both cars being superior performance-wise to a number of them.
STi is a sports car, built strictly to perform from the ground up and has everything a true sports car has, even with four doors. Sport sedans in my opinion are like regular wrx's, S4's, so on so forth. Type Rs are sports cars, i'm not talking about the attempt of bringing the integra over here with the acura type-r, i'm talking about jdm versions. The reason why you do see much coverage with the type-r class, is because theres not many mags here that cover those cars because not much has changed since the late 90's. Covering a type-r is basically like covering a civic, it played out so much a few years ago that i would doubt the mags would sell even if there were articals on main page. If they did sell, there would be more coverage in mags with them. Not many car mags to begin with that we get here cover cars that aren't located here. At least, not that i've seen anyway. Usually, everything they cover is based on events and cars in the usa.
Comparing the honda type r and scion tC is basically like comparing the rsx-s to a sti. As the whole car, the type-r is built for performance, no one can argue with it. It was the whole point Honda started making the class. Performance version of _____. Regardless if its based off a another model or not, that doesn't mean its not a sports car. TC in no way, is a sports car. Besides, even with mods like the s/c. Because theres virtually nothing about the tC that screams sports car. Its a heavy coupe, but thats it. Also, you rarely see "serious" events with FWD cars, its generally rwd and awd so yeah, you aren't going to see them there.
But over seas they do have a popular circuit, i forget the name of it, and the type-r's do run that regularly. I wish i could remember the name of it though.
You said it yourself when you say the STi is a superb performance car, so just because its based on the regular wrx and has four doors you claim its a sports sedan? That to me, makes no sense. Well, it makes logical sense but at the same it doesn't. I see your points, i just don't agree with them.
Cya
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Originally Posted by Biznox
We all agree on one thing: Sports car = built for performance/handling
FWD is detrimental to performance and handling compared to RWD and AWD, it's a known and accepted fact amongst people with an understanding of the physics involved.
Therefore a car with FWD is not designed for performance/handling first and foremost and while it may be fun to drive and quick, it is not designed for racing or with performance as the priority and thereby is NOT a true sports car IMO.
You have to draw the line SOMEWHERE guys. If a Civic Si and a tC are sports cars then "sports car" has no meaning at all anymore.
FWD is detrimental to performance and handling compared to RWD and AWD, it's a known and accepted fact amongst people with an understanding of the physics involved.
Therefore a car with FWD is not designed for performance/handling first and foremost and while it may be fun to drive and quick, it is not designed for racing or with performance as the priority and thereby is NOT a true sports car IMO.
You have to draw the line SOMEWHERE guys. If a Civic Si and a tC are sports cars then "sports car" has no meaning at all anymore.
jkFor the last time though: No one is claiming the tC or Si is a sports car. I later said after the Si post that the Si is a sports compact, it ended there. The tC is just a coupe, theres nothing sports compact or sports car about it. No one ever said the tC was a sports car.
Cya
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Originally Posted by SilverRSXJezus
I personally feel that the sTi and Evo are econoboxes made into sports cars, so....great.
Cya
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Originally Posted by SilverRSXJezus
I personally feel that the sTi and Evo are econoboxes made into sports cars
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Originally Posted by cfusionpm
Originally Posted by SilverRSXJezus
I personally feel that the sTi and Evo are econoboxes made into sports cars
People would consider a car built around F1 racing a sports car, theres no difference with Rally racing. But have to perform like crazy, and share similar needs though the races are two completely different. Once they are on street, such as STi, built for the street but based on Rally, its a sports car never the less. Its what i've been saying since my first post about the STi and Evo.
Though, the Evo7 wasn't that great. If i were to buy an evo i would buy a six, i'm not a huge fan of the 8. The Evo-X is pretty crazy if it were to hit dealerships like the concept. STi though, huge, huge fan. I know several people that owns STi's.
Cya
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4 doors = not a sports car in most peoples minds.
I've grown tired of this pointless discussion though. The truth is there is no overriding authority that decides what is or isn't a sports car that i know of, so it's open to interpetation and we'll never reach consensus on this....
I've grown tired of this pointless discussion though. The truth is there is no overriding authority that decides what is or isn't a sports car that i know of, so it's open to interpetation and we'll never reach consensus on this....
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Originally Posted by Biznox
4 doors = not a sports car in most peoples minds.
I've grown tired of this pointless discussion though. The truth is there is no overriding authority that decides what is or isn't a sports car that i know of, so it's open to interpetation and we'll never reach consensus on this....
I've grown tired of this pointless discussion though. The truth is there is no overriding authority that decides what is or isn't a sports car that i know of, so it's open to interpetation and we'll never reach consensus on this....
To each their own, all i ask of those in this discussion to keep more of an opinion mind with their opinions. Just because you grew up thinking one way doesn't mean you are correct.
Cya
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