Since we are talking about aftermarket support and the supposed cosmetic only enhancements scion offers. Have you ever looked at what is available from a dealer for the new si? The new si does not offer any power adders. Thats right absolutely none. Only thing close that is offered is a sport muffler which adds only sound. No hp or ft/lb gains at all. The suspension package lowers the car less than 1" front and rear and does not help the handling at all. It is purely a visual statement. This is from my rep's mouth. Also when you talk about the aftermarket support, I do not deny that honda gave out a bunch of si's took inspire new parts. However very few parts can be added without causing a warranty issue. Example we just denied a claim to a guy on his stereo. He blew the factory amp by changing the stock speakers to aftermarket. Also speaking of this, that radio everyone is so interested in is a $2500 radio. It only comes as that entire piece. And since killerx likes to go to the internal's of the two cars. The setup of the si's motor internally is the same as every other honda motor. Ductile sleeves with nothing forged. If you want a good honda motor out of the box in my opinion, go look at the s2000 f20c and f22c, and the tsx k24. Those are great motors. The si motor while better than the last few is nothing special when compared to the rsx type s. Matter of fact they are almost the same.

 

USA Honda has rarely offered any performance packages for their cars, Japan Honda as well as a few other countries have Spoon as well as a very other Honda specific companies that can do that for them. Honda knows aftermarket companies jump all over their cars, especially ones like the Si. They know they don't need to sell factory parts because quite frankly, why would they need to? The few parts they have sold in the past didn't do them any justice because the aftermarket overwhelmed what they could offer.

If you want to go that route, Toyota also offers hardly anything thats genuine Toyota that increases power, or any performance. Bring up TRD? You can't finance TRD parts when you buy the car at just about all dealerships because TRD while shares and go through Toyota testing, is considered aftermarket. TRD is like Spoon and mugen for honda, only difference is you have to import almost all Spoon and Mugen parts because they don't really have any plants here. And the few parts that are made here aren't the same as the imported parts in terms of quality.

So your entire dealership performance arguement really serves no purpose.

Yes, the k20z3 isn't that much different than any other K series, i never said it was. What i said was theres a ton of weak internal parts on the 2az. The K series has its faults too, just like any other motor it could benefit with upgrades. But its a stronger platform than the 2az, and a better platform for n/a than the tC.

 

doesnt matter if its better n/a platform than the tC, u can only go so far bein na. the 2az is a better platform FI.

cyaa

 

I find it interesting that you bring up spoon and mugen a honda's version of trd. Although they would be the closest of the aftermarket companies to such an idea their parts are not supported by honda. If you add a trd component to your toyota you get a part that does not void your factory warranty in the event of a problem, whereas a mugen or spoon product does.

 

I'm sure they will find some way of sqeezing a turbo in there. The Tein SI is turbo'd. Maybe the STS style turbo systems might be a better route for the small engine bay.

Of course I was NOT saying that the 06 SI was the ONLY Honda that could beat a tC. Of course I'm talking about in the Civic line-up. Of course an S2000 would roast my a$$, and I would loose to the last generation Prelude. I'm not stupid man!


For the record, I don't down play the new SI. I'm sure it is really quick(will find out just how quick hopefully this weekend, when I race my friend). I was just more or less trying to say the SI vs. TC thing is not like a Diamond vs. A Gem Stone. And yes, I've seen the insides (I visit ZPI at least twice a month). But despite some of the weakness, it still is able to handle 350whp on a good tune with those same weak stock internals. In some cases 400whp.

185-190whp WITHOUT the typical performance upgrades I/H/E. Still though 180wph > 197crank power. The Exhaust is 95% the FIRST thing installed on a car. So, to say 185-190whp is to say you will run the S/C and the S/C only for the life of the car. So, the chances that an SI will race a S/C ONLY modded tC on the streets is Slim to None. By the way, S/C with i/h/e average dyno #'s are 240-245whp.

I agree. If I was running a Civic, N/A route would be the way to go as it would be a little more difficult going the F/I route. You could do a N/A build on the 2az, but I would go the route of F/I over N/A on that platform. Engines slightly favor one or the other, I don't recall seeing ANY engine that had the same equal potential whether it was F/I or N/A, just not the case with design and technology. Favortisim to which side will all depend on the Engineering behind the motor.

 

well aestheticallly and interior wise, the tC rules IMHO...i mean the SI is just ugly in and out. however the engine is another story, but good luck for all those who plan to go FI with the new SI's...they are way to small to fit anything, you would have a tiny ___ turbo if you did plan to make it fit. and why are they comparing tC's to the SI's...they arent even in the same price range.

 

^ 240-245whp? Yeah, i/h/e doesn't add 50whp even with f/i. I/h/e with the supercharger would be more like 200-205whp.

Also, yeah the 2az can handle 350whp without upgrading any internals, but it won't last long at all. Even with a great tune, and everything running great it wouldn't last much more than a year without running into problems i bet you. Why do you think scionspeed owners run into problems so fast? Aside from their kit sucking, its too much power for the internals to handle. Even 250whp is going to cause problems within the first three years if driven daily without doing any internal work.

I agree, its going to be hard pressed for a Si to race a s/c only tC. But thats what this entire thread was about, only the supercharger vs a stock Si. Not i/h/e s/c, not s/c with pulley, not lsd, nothing. Plain and simple, s/c only vs. stock Si. Aside from that, not many respectable honda owners race their stock cars so its not like racing a stock Si is going to be every day either. It's a pretty hard topic in that sense, because i don't know anyone that races a stock car, and not many people just have the supercharger alone..not for long at least. But that is what this thread is based on.

 

Looks is just opinion, so its not like that could be based for fact. In my opinion, the Si looks great. I perfered the Ep3 body to be honest, i liked that better than previous models in terms of looks. But the new Si looks great, to me anyway.

Si and tC are both under $20,000, this is why they are comparing it. Not to mention, half the people on here including you i'm assuming, hate the thought of being beat by a civic. Since you usally see the poorly done, big winged, multicolored civic's people assume honda and civic's have no potential and is just a pos. Not the case, affordable cars go to hell with the newbies and kids that think big wings add 50whp.

 

umm can you explain a little further what you mean by the engine not being able to handle 250hp without upgrading internals? im pretty sure it could, and what would you have to upgrade anyways, just pistons rite?

 

2az is a better F/I platform than K20z3. But does that make it weaker...no. It's just better at a different sport (F/I).

 

If you compare the 2az to other motors out there that are similar displacement, and just look at the internals its not the best even for f/i. Yeah, it can handle it but the internals are weak to a certain degree.

blackonblack; if i were to do a turbo on the 2az, and say i was going to run around 250whp. I'd replace injectors, pistons, clutch, rod, definitely do management, intercooler, upgrade a few trans parts, then do stuff like exhaust and the such. I know a lot of the parts i mentioned are usually included with kits, but i just wanted to include everything. I could probably go further, but thats what i would do.

 

230whp (doubling stock power output)
6 psi
EVO III GT Big 16g
Tial Wastegate (silver)
Stainless charge piping
4 ply couplers
Stainless Manifold
Pre tapped Oil pan
All fuel and timing tuning already complete
Comes with new oil pan making it a true bolt on kit

i figure that i dont need pistons since it doesnt require them..and i plan to get emanage, zpi's turbo pistons, and since i have an auto their ESK, and a TMIC. exhaust is a must...but thats not really included with a turbo kit, but i plan to get the Draxas. also im gettin a HKS BOV

 

OK, this has gone on long enough.. I can't believe what I just read.... SI vs TC? who cares....
what drives me nuts???

BLACK RULES??? are you kidding me???

Come on you Flint Mica owners, UNITE!!!

Let's stop this madness........ this can't go on any longer.... pleazzzzzzzz

sorry, just thought i'd lighten up the mood. I know we're all passionate about our cars, but man this sure can go on a long time here...

 

Dude, USE THE SEARCH BUTTON! 200-205whp...YOU GOT TO BE JOKING! I'm pretty sure by now everyone of the S/C guys are running a new pulley. So, again chances are that an 06 Si driver will race a S/C ONLY modded tC is slim to NONE.

That is neither hear nor there. As a tC with 350whp hasn't been around that long. PS....the k20 will have even more problems on a F/I setup with stock internals than the 2az. If you BEAT on the engine everyday, of course longevity will be lesser. But you are making it a little dramatic. You can't Prove it, because it dosen't EXIST!

Haahaa..talk to this guy name Josh here in the Boro. His 06 Si is all stock, and he races all the time. I'm going to race him this weekend, just to see how much quicker he is over me. I don't know how good of a driver he is, but we will find out.

 

Then why bother with emanage or any management if the kit doesn't include them? Not trying to be a jerk but you say you don't think you need pistons, but you need management but both aren't included. I'd upgrade the pistons if i were you. Being you have an auto, atf cooler is a must for you. (automatic trans fluid cooler) You also will need to run synthetic trans fluid, synthetic motor oil too if you didn't already know that.

 

We are talking about the 2az vs. the k20 remember. Stay on topic.


Those are all AFTER thought upgrades. Don't make it seem like it's an IMMEDIATE must have in order to go turbo, or your engine will BLOW UP! You can do all that as it comes and you want to upgrade something when you don't have anything else to do.

 

Hey, this isn't even about turbo's. Stay on topic! jk.

 

Sorry, on a scale, I would say getting the manage would come before pistons. What's the point in having pistons with no manage. I'M SURE that putting pistons in would IMMEDIATELY call for a tune that the factory ecu could not handle.

 

I don't know all the Hondaspeak, so EP3? But if you are referring to the Si coupe from the late 90's, I destroyed one last summer with my 05 with 0 power mods. He had an intake and exhaust. And Killer, I do believe somebody here w/ a stock tC did hit a 15.4-- a couple months ago. IMO, the late 90's Civic Si coupe is not aworthy adversary for a stock tC. Not just my .02, just my personal experience.

 

killer ur retarded all of the S/C I/H/E guys are in the 225-240 range.

the stock exhaust and intake were restrictive with just the NA power, how do think its going to be when trying to push twice the gases through it? Twice the gains you moron.
go ahead and prove me wrong.

U talk soo much about things u know soooo little about.

and seriously this is Scion Life, not Honda life. All you do is under estimate the abilities of a car you dont have, and over estimate the abilities of another you have never owned. If you like them so much better why dont u just get the heck out mister.

bro u might want to sit a few posts out...
or threads for that matter