Actually, i wouldn't say honda is the underdog at all. The Scion tC still has much to prove as far as competing with other japanesse vehicles. If anything, the 06' Si has the upper hand in the sense of aftermarket availability. The k20z isn't anything new. I do see a point when it comes to styling, the 06 Si has pretty much a complete bumper to bumper make over. In that sense, the tC has the upperhand. While performance wise, i'd say the Si has the upper hand by far, because truth is the Si performs way over the tC stock for stock. tC with s/c, Si will still overall perform better. It could be just as fast if not a little faster thanks to gearing and top end, but overall. Hands down.

People that bring up "Si is not a stock Civic" to me, personally is just trying to find a way out to justify boosting a 2az in the mix. No offense to those that support this arguement, but stock for stock performance you cannot do that. As i've stated already, trim levels has nothing to do with a car being stock or not.

However, magizines have nothing to gain by putting down the Scion tC. Infact, many mags have already praised the tC on many levels. So i wouldn't use that either, with their drivers obviously the Si won hands down. So you guys can just deal with.

By the way, i'm not hating on the tC at all, but the Si overall performs better and you guys just need to live with that fact.

 

I'm not talking about comparing the tC and the Si when I say one is the underdog. I'm talking about the manufacturers as companies and in that regard, while Honda may have more credibility in the sport compact segment, they lag behind Toyota in overall profitability and total market share. My question for the original poster was how exactly is it that these companies are to blame for unbiased or skewed automotive journalism.

 

I can answer for the original poster, they can't be blammed. Because they make nothing out of it for totally putting down the tC when before the Si they were supporting the tC completely. (as about 90% of all magizines that covered the tC)

Honda lags behind, but they haven't been ahead of Toyota all that much as far as overall profit. But, some people (not saying you do) think that because of this Honda makes, builds, and designs horrible cars which infact they don't.

 

So the Si has more agressive gearing than the tC; that's amazing. If only the chassis on the Si were lighter and featured four double wishbones instead of front macphersons and didn't look like a mini accord (or at the very least, looked somewhat different) then I'd be all over it.

But oh well, I'm more for the tC's styling.

Anyways, I see the point of the market bias influence. These magazines aren't being published and marketed at the general population - if so, the point of the Cobalt SS praised over the Si would be completely valid. This magazine is marketed towards the tuner crowd which is predominantly a Honda thing.

Killerxromances should know, the B18 has some AMAZING potential. I never thought a 1.8 liter engine could make anything useful but there are quite a bit of 10 and 11 second Integras whereas there aren't any 11 second tCs (this is obviously due to the short amount of time the 2AZ has been marketed towards 'tuners'.)

Whoa, sorry for the weird tangent, anyways, because of the potential of the Honda engines and the relatively inexpensive lightweight chassis (00 and back), they've been popular with tuner crowds for quite some time (I'd say we're sitting on the peak of Honda performance from the B18.. it'll probably take about five or so more years for the K20 to be hitting the same power in the same quantities as the B18.) This fact, coupled with the relatively expensive Toyota technology (about 20k for VTEC vs around 24k for VVTL-i) and the somewhat lack of flexibility of Toyota engines (hey! let's swap a 2ZZ-GE head onto our 2AZs! oh blast.. nevermind.. I'll just pop this K20Z head onto this K24A3 block with a K20A2 transmission) as well as the also expensive performance stuff from other companies (who wants to turn a 40k rotary into a beater? Although.. I don't know see why there aren't as many 240SXs.. oh well) created a huge market of Honda folks and to an extent alienated low budget serious tuners (like a guy with 30k can get a super fast Integra rather than a pretty fast Celica GTS.)

Sorry for all the parentheticals.. I'll summarize.

Basically, because of the flexibility and relative low cost of Honda cars and engines, the tuner market became predominantly Honda so these speed magazines' main target audience mostly own Hondas.

 

yea you are correct out the factory the Si is better. Off the showroom floor the TC wins. You should know Scion is all about add ons, the TC is just a plain canvas from the factory. So each person can do what they please with it.

 

1) Toyota engines are quite swapable, as long as they are in the same family (ZZ series excluded)....Its just that you guys dont get the engines that are worth swapping parts with. And it is also pretty straight forward to swap whole engines into chassis, as toyota pretty much shoves every engine they have across its lines
2) I dont think these guys are ticked off because the Si can 'outperform' the tC. Its pretty much obvious that the Si can beat the tC off the factory line, that does not make it the better VALUE. Maybe they just miss the attention cause every body now is trying to make the Si look like its the best thing since sliced bread.
3) mr Honda fanboy 'killeromances' an Si will not beat a s/c tC with Full trd parts. Get real, the Si might have better gear ratios, but it still lacks torque, is just as heavy and pushes 197hp at the flywheel vs te tC's 193hp to the wheels. Maybe on the highway when the tC runs out of gears, but not on a strip, nor an auto X course or a race track for that matter.
4) And a tC in a magaine comparo optioned out with 'look good' parts that bring it up to such a high price vs a more expensive sporty car is pure and utter BS.

 

i still think the Si will beat the tC at auto X or a race track. It will always handle better through the turns because of its LSD.

 

I have news for you, torque doesn't win races. The combination of torque and hp does with the correct/proper gearing to use full advantage of that tq and whp. Si will win autox/road course like it or not.

As for Scrap: Any car is a "blank canvas" when you talk about the tuner world, the only difference between Scion and any other compact car is the fact Toyota is using the "Blank Canvas" theory and marketing it. Nothing has changed, just because its Scion's marketing doesn't mean other cars can't be just as mod-able if not more so.

 

 

The biggest chunk of that money was the supercharger, not the "look good" parts. The supercharger w/ dealer install alone would bring the tC up to around $21,500.

 

I haven't actually read the article (nor do I care to read a biased article), but from what it sounds like money (spent on the tC) could've been better spent on performance instead of lighting (mods that wouldn't help performance).

The true test is TRD tC vs. Si

 

^^^^ Fanboi (the guy b4 r2 )

You are right about torque and HP mating.

If you look at the torque and HP numbers of the s/c tC compared to the weight, and then do the same for the SI why in the world would you even think the SI would be quicker?

The SI does have aggresive gearing. BUT they are not so aggresivly geared that would put the tC at any kind of acceleration disadvantage.

Powerband is another VERY important part. When does the civic SI hit its impressive 197 bhp? And before it hits its powerband (the low end) what are its numbers?

Not only does a SC tC put down more torque AND more HP but it does it sooner. And most of the people who own the tC are more upset with the mis representation of the tC to favor another car.

 

Torque does not win races? well i have news for you, the power of a car is directly related to its torque, and the earlier it comes in and longer it stays there, the better. Bigger torque also means better acceleration, and unless you have a lot of looooong straightways, i'll take a torque advantage of peaky horsepower anyday. Do you even race?

And this really has nothing to do with what i like...as far as i'm concerned, both cars are wrong wheel drive, underpowered and overweight. I call BS like I see BS and thats exactly what that article is, slightly better gear ratios and an LSD isn't gonna change that. And $4000 will pretty much get you most if not all the TRD suspension parts for the tC

 

Apparently its enough due to the fact their testing showed a boosted tC ties with a stock Si. I've personally driven a 06' Si, have you? 90% of everyone bashing the Si hasn't even test driven it. Everyone just puts down honda anyway for no reason. Pointless.

R2D2: How many times do i need to say that a modified tC against a stock Si is ridiculous. Comparing performance of two cars, both should have similar mods or both be stock. (stock has nothing to do with trim levels before you bring that back up) With that said, similar mods, Si wins. Both stock, Si wins. Apparently with 1/4, a somewhat mildly boosted tC (trd) ties with the Si. What does that prove? You spend $21,500 (roughly) and you come out with a evenly matched 1/4 time? You guys just need to accept the fact, the Si is a better performance compact for the money. Period. It has a better foundation from the factory.

 

For the record guys. You are talking about how the s/c brings so much more whp to the table compared the the Si.

tC with just the s/c dynos around 190whp.
Si stock dynos around 176whp.

This is only a 14whp difference. Given the fact the Si is slightly lighter, with more aggressive gearing from the factory with better suspension/tire combo's to better make use of the power, its now impossible and actually is pretty likely they would pretty much tie with 1/4 runs. Given both drivers are virtually the same with knowledge and experience.

 

[quote="killerxromances"]killerxromances <-- How many times do i need to say that a Si against a tC is ridiculous. Comparing performance of two cars, both should have similar mods or both be stock ^, therefore if any comparison is made is should be EX VS. tC . You just don't get what we're saying about the TRD mods (their factory, they maintain warranty, and they'd be similar in overall pricing to the Si, in addition it is a fair comparison being that the Si is basically a "modded" version of the EX). Even if a FAIR test were to be conducted (unlike how ur favorite mag did it), TRD from what we're trying to say isn't lighting and shiftknobs, its suspension.
Coming from a fool that says "...he races his xB against tCs and wins all the time..."
Reality and the things you (killerxromances) say are totally different.

 

I test drove the SI and from that i am confident in saying that YES the SI is aggresivly geared, and NO its not so aggresive that puts the tC in any sort of gearing disadvantage.

I personally have not had the opportunity to drive a S/C tC though. But going off of Real world dynos and weight/power ratios. I can also confidently say the Civic SI would in no way out perform a tC in 0-60, 60', 1/8, or 1/4 mile.

 

[quote="R2D2"]1. When have i ever said i race tCs all the time and beat them? I've said i've beat a few in autox, totally different environment than 1/4.
2. I agree, Si and tC shouldn't be compared due to the fact the Si is a solid win. However, i'm not one of these guys that can't accept the fact the Si performs overall better than, the tC now am. Nor am i the one that starts tc vs si threads. However, while they are there i will contribute due to my knowledge of both toyota and honda.

And yet again i have to remind you that comparing performance of the Si to tC, you don't need to bring up your "its a modded ex" crap. People obviously have something towards the Si because tC owners apparently want to win the battle for the most part. Not to mention Si is not a modded ex, its a trim level of the civic that happens to be the performance civic. So, with that said give the "but its a modded ex" thing to rest.

 

Pointlessness talking to killerxromances
Si = modded EX. Just the same as a stcok Si beating a stock tC. Just like a TRD tC beating an stock Si. Just like a stock tC beating a stock EX.
If your gonna to mod an EX (aka Si) and compare it to a tC its only fair to mod the tC to equal the price of the modded EX (aka Si). Until you can see it in reality, its pointless trying to debate anything with an irrational person.

 

You have got to be the most ignorant person i have ever talked to. Si does not equal a modded EX. It doesn't share anything with the Si except a few interior features and body shell. Si is a completely different car in that respect. You need to let go of trim levels, because trim levels is not the factor in this. Specifically this thread is referring to the Si and tC. Not Ex and tC.

Until you can prove your statements of a TRD tC beating hands down an Si, your information remains your opinion. I would also like to point out, just because of the Si's trim level, that doesn't give you the right to modify your tC just to "equal" what the Si has to offer. That is the most ridiculous arguement point i have ever heard of in my life.
If you want to debate the TRD tC vs. modified Si (to keep performance mods the same, which is the only way to test truthfully performance vs. performance) start your own thread about it.

Modifying the tC and keeping the Si stock is a stupid arguement point, theres no logic behind it. You can modify any car with the right money and will power to out power and perform any other car. It proves nothing. Even if someone did a TRD tC vs a i/h/e, springs, shocks, strut, and sway Si and Si won, you would find something to disprove the testing because you can't admit defeat.

Just like you are finding ways around the s/c tC vs Si testing this particular magizine did. Its sad. Both are great cars, but the Si is a better performing car. Your pride prevents you from admiting it.

I might also add, your "no point in talking to ____ because they disagree with me" thing is pretty childish.